Nord Grand 2

[CyberGene]

If we have to be precise, what digital piano manufacturer call “escapement simulation” is only a simulation of the escapement bump you feel near the bottom. Not of the escapement itself. The difference is huge and I’ve elaborated it a lot on piano related forums. The rubber notches that Kawai et al put are needless and don’t contribute to anything. In contrast, the real escapement in acoustic piano actions, besides the obvious purpose of detaching the hammer from the key-whippen-jack system, so that it can rebound from the string and allow it to vibrate, has very specific side effects such as changing the lever ratio from 1:5 to approximately 1:1 while you’re keeping the key pressed at the bottom and that prevents the rebound energy to push back against your fingers (besides the hammer energy being transferred into a backcheck spring extension) with the original lever-amplified weight, which is what ALL digital piano actions exhibit and is the most common criticism. The rubber notches do nothing that can emulate this. I’d remove them myself 😀

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

The rubber notches that Kawai et al put are needless and don’t contribute to anything

 

I agree with Stu from Merriam where he talks about escapement simulation providing an extra sense of dynamic control, particularly in quieter playing. I have issues with Roland actions such as the PHA4, but I will always give them credit for their practically flawless dynamic response. These gimmicky simulations might not be super-authentic, but if a manufacturer can get it in a way that enhances some element of the DP experience, then by all means! 

[CyberGene]

I’m not sure what Stu exactly described, haven’t watched that particular video but he’s a salesman and I would take his opinion with a grain of salt. He has to justify the marketing that surrounds features such as rubber notches called misleadingly “escapement simulation”. 

[CHarrell]

Just now, CyberGene said:

I’m not sure what Stu exactly described, haven’t watched that particular video but he’s a salesman and I would take his opinion with a grain of salt. He has to justify the marketing that surrounds features such as rubber notches called misleadingly “escapement simulation”. 

 

His position as a salesman is irrelevant here, I'm saying that my personal experience echoes his (though for the record, he's ambivalent about escapement simulation). Regardless of how successful the DP manufacturers are at imitating the piano experience through these rubber notches, there is an effect that they produce in some keyboards--though I find it more effective in this aspect in Roland than say Kawai. (I used to love RHIII but last couple times I've played it on ES920, I found there was a resistance to the keys that felt like I was trying to hold down helium balloons--staccato passages felt really snappy, but quiet legato lines felt more difficult. Same on RHC, though maybe not as pronounced due to lack of escapement simulation). 

[CyberGene]

On a real piano the escapement notch might help you feel where the point is beyond which you can’t throw the hammer. Well, that’s standardized more or less (and is called aftertouch but it has nothing to do with what modern keyboards call aftertouch) and happens approximately 1 mm before the key bottoms out, out of 10 mm of key travel. That can be useful when playing the so-called “off the jack” technique where you need to release keys above that point in order to replay them. I guess Stu (and you?) mean that you can slightly rest upon the escapement in order to throw the key from there and thus control soft dynamics? But I still find this rather useless because digital pianos can ideally be made to generate a strike even if you hold the key after the escapement and then throw it. 
 

But I get it some people may like the notch feeling. I don’t. I think even acoustic piano builders would have loved to eliminate that artifact since it goes in the way of the smooth key movement and is a side effect, not a goal in itself. 

[MathOfInsects]

This is outstanding discourse. Thanks to all for this cool exchange of preferences and knowledge. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

They’re using something similar to the VPC1 action, ya?

No... it's a modified RHIII, as in the Kawai ES8, MP7SE, ES920.

 

23 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

if Kawai figured something out and offered that on one of their models (that would probably cost half as much as Nord). Oh man.

The models above would be the ones to look at, in terms of similar (albeit not identical) action.

[CHarrell]

2 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I guess Stu (and you?) mean that you can slightly rest upon the escapement in order to throw the key from there and thus control soft dynamics? But I still find this rather useless because digital pianos can ideally be made to generate a strike even if you hold the key after the escapement and then throw it. 

 

What ends up happening in some keyboards with this mechanism--Roland especially-- is that it creates what I imagine as a kind of gravitational "whirlpool" that drags your fingers in and the closer you get to the notch point, the more resistance it creates (playing acoustic pianos, for me the escapement always feels like something where you just press the key down til oh there's the escapement). That resistance from the rubber notch provides a haptic feedback that allows you to sense and adjust your playing force in real-time. However, there are trade-offs here: number one complaint I see about PHA4 is that it feels heavy and sluggish. It's my opinion that this sensation isn't created so much from sheer weight, but rather a kind of illusion generated by the way they created this escapement simulation. Notably, I find the escapement feature in the PHA50 to be much less pronounced, and a lot smoother as a result.

 

You and I both have played the CP88: I would rather a "simplified" action like that, with its smooth playing and agility, than a more "complicated" keybed that has the kinds of impact on the playing experience that I described above. In other words, I would much rather a keyboard emulate the experience of playing an acoustic piano rather than the literal mechanics of playing an acoustic piano. Obviously, with the Nord Grand, Nord agrees.

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

No... it's a modified RHIII, as in the Kawai ES8, MP7SE, ES920.

 

The models above would be the ones to look at, in terms of similar (albeit not identical) action.

VPC-1 uses RM3II Wooden-Key, Graded Hammer Action w/Counterbalancing.  It weighs 69lbs.  Does this action simulate escapement? 
 

The ES8 uses the RHIII Graded-Hammer Action and weighs 49lbs.  The Nord Grand 2 similarly weighs 47lbs.  

 

 

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, Dave Keys said:

I'd consider an NE7electroHP if they replaced the action with something more like the Kawai. 

I'm quietly betting that the next Electro hammer-action models will use the 73-key HA (Fatar) action from Piano 5 and Stage 4. Heavier, but worth it.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CyberGene]

9 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

That resistance from the rubber notch provides a haptic feedback that allows you to sense and adjust your playing force in real-time

There may be some truth to that in quiet playing since it’s only then when you can feel it and it can give you some counter-resistance reference against which you can adjust your force when playing quietly. But I still have rather high doubts when speaking about the typical emulation implementations. Kawai usually display translucent models of their actions in piano stores and if you see what the escapement simulation is, just a small rubber notch that the key-hammer system touches briefly, you’d see how that is more an excuse and a cheap gimmick than any real advantage. But again, I agree that it can have a certain effect and provide some feedback if you prefer to have one.

 

 I used to be obsessed with digital piano actions in the past and would consider all these small details as really important features because I used to be kind of “zoomed in” into them only. Once I moved into the hybrid digital with my AvantGrand N1X which gave me peace of mind (being a real grand piano action and so much better than the typical digital piano actions), I just accepted that regular digital pianos also have place under the sun and I’m more zoomed out now 😀 I think I am much more forgiving and can live with any of them to a degree. Even the simplest ones. 

[CHarrell]

3 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I used to be obsessed with digital piano actions in the past and would consider all these small details as really important features because I used to be kind of “zoomed in” into them only. Once I moved into the hybrid digital with my AvantGrand N1X which gave me peace of mind (being a real grand piano action and so much better than the typical digital piano actions), I just accepted that regular digital pianos also have place under the sun and I’m more zoomed out now 😀 I think I am much more forgiving and can live with any of them to a degree. Even the simplest ones. 

 

I could probably zoom out more; it's usually not in features but the actual experience for me. I used to be fine with playing anything but 5 years ago, I was gigging a LOT with the Yamaha P125. At first I enjoyed it, but as the months went by, I began to find myself struggling with the action. The breaking point came when I was performing in a musical that was very piano-centric, with many of the show's pivotal moments resting on the piano. I'd practice on any piano I could find--usually uprights--and it felt easy, fluid, and expressive. But then I'd actually perform on the P125, and night after night I kept trying in vain to find a way that made the keys feel more natural to play (usually adjusting touch curve). Things I'd play easily on an acoustic became so much more of a struggle on multiple levels. So without knowing the finer points of keybed actions, I just knew I wanted something better.

 

Sometimes I wish I could just revert back to that state of just playing anything with blissful ignorance--both in feels and sound quality--but then I try to console myself by reminding myself that when I was a kid, my favorite thing to eat was a ketchup sandwich, AKA ketchup between two pieces of bread.

[CyberGene]

@CHarrell it’s easy for me to be “zoomed out” since I don’t make money with music and I have the N1X whenever I need quality. But if I had to perform seriously on a digital piano, you bet I would be really picky about the action and all the tiny details 😀 If for some reason I have to choose a stage piano for a professional work, I’d take the CP88 again, even though it reminded me of my herniated disc. But who knows, the Nord Grand might be even better. For my current needs even the CK61 with synth/waterfall keys works 😀 

[ElmerJFudd]

Almost all of our sample based hardware instruments are stingy on storage.  
 

Nord Grand 2 offers 1gb for two sample synths and 2gb for the pianos section.  Similar to Yamaha’s AWM2, Nord uses a lossless compression format to get their White Grand XL down to 204mb zipped.  

How detailed are their sample sets compared to say, VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 which is built from almost 17,000 samples.  Or Garritan CFX which is a 133gb full install?  

[CHarrell]

Just now, ElmerJFudd said:

Almost all of our sample based instruments are stingy on storage.  
 

Nord Grand 2 offers 1gb for two sample synths and 2gb for the pianos section.  Similar to Yamaha’s AWM2, Nord uses a lossless compression format to get their White Grand XL down to 204mb zipped.  

How detailed are their sample sets compared to say, VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 which is built from almost 17,000 samples.  Or Garritan CFX which is a 133gb full install?  

 

The Nord pianos are taken from Sampletekk, is that correct? That might give us a good clue.

[ElmerJFudd]

23 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

The Nord pianos are taken from Sampletekk, is that correct? That might give us a good clue.

No, I think that was true in the beginning. I believe they are developing their own libraries for quite some time. 

[CHarrell]

18 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

No, I think that was true in the beginning. I believe they are developing their own libraries for quite some time. 

 

Ah, thank you for the correction!

[Mighty Motif Max]

1 hour ago, CHarrell said:

 

The Nord pianos are taken from Sampletekk, is that correct? That might give us a good clue.

 

37 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

No, I think that was true in the beginning. I believe they are developing their own libraries for quite some time. 

On the contrary, they are still actively doing both. The White Grand is a SampleTekk derivative. The Royal Grand 3D, however, has more of a mystery. Some of their older stuff like the Studio Grands are SampleTekk as well. Check out this thread at the Nord User Forum, in particular, the table partway down that is regularly updated: https://www.norduserforum.com/general-nord-forum-f29/models-of-piano-samples-t19136.html?sid=7db88db8e1c3f48fb85a02c9440e6299

 

[Phil Aiken]

I absolutely love the Nord Grand as a stage piano, but i don't think this is enough of an enticement for me to upgrade. I need it to play one piano sound at a time. That's it. If they fixed the issue with the triple strike capabilities not transmitting properly though midi I might think long and hard about it. And for the love of Donnie Hathaway, please, please give us a serious XL Wurly sample set. Contract with Scarbee or someone. It should not be an afterthought. Bring it up to the quality level of the Rhodes sounds. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Sampletekk's Black Grand is 6.84gb rar'd.   

Nord's White Grand is 203.4mb in npno format.  

 

Accounting for say a 60% reduction in size going to npno compression. That’s 2.74gb in a direct conversion. So what gets left out?  

 

Things commonly done to save space....

less velocity layers, fewer mic perspectives, shorter samples, looping samples, stretching samples.  

[Mighty Motif Max]

I would expect we're looking at one mic position, maybe 8 velocity layers maximum (probably more like 5), possible looping, and sample stretching on the smaller sizes (I'm only considering the XL version for specs here). Get rid of extra things like string resonance samples, damper noises, etc from the actual sample library and replace them with Nord's homebrew methods (I assume?), and you could get the size down quite a bit. I would love to know what the actual compression ratio is though.

 

This is the actual White Grand MKII: https://www.sampletekk.com/grand-pianos&product_id=205

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I would expect we're looking at one mic position, maybe 8 velocity layers maximum (probably more like 5), possible looping, and sample stretching on the smaller sizes (I'm only considering the XL version for specs here). Get rid of extra things like string resonance samples, damper noises, etc from the actual sample library and replace them with Nord's homebrew methods (I assume?), and you could get the size down quite a bit. I would love to know what the actual compression ratio is though.

 

This is the actual White Grand MKII: https://www.sampletekk.com/grand-pianos&product_id=205

This does continue to confound me, I am certain I’m not alone.  
 

It’s one thing to limit what is possible in sampled piano realism on $500-2500 instruments.  It may be even conceivable on $2500-5000 instruments that offer many instrument timbres and are primarily designed for live performance in an ensemble.  But to get sampled piano detail comparable to what is available with desktop software instruments the MI industry wants us to shell out $10,000-20,000 for hybrid pianos.  It’s no wonder there’s a huge market for software pianos paired with a stage piano and a good pair of monitors.  It’s a miracle Kawai even released the VPC1, they haven’t revisited it either, and they didn’t put their most “premium” action on it from the start.  
 

I suppose guitar amp and fx pedal developers are also struggling with adapting to modeling plugins. 

[CHarrell]

19 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I suppose guitar amp and fx pedal developers are also struggling with adapting to modeling plugins. 

 

There's a modular and cool collectible factor that I think will always propel those sales. What's a more natural combo than GAS and pedals? 

[ElmerJFudd]

9 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

 

There's a modular and cool collectible factor that I think will always propel those sales. What's a more natural combo than GAS and pedals? 

Haha maybe so.   I see Fender recently has a killer looking solution for $1699 called Tone Master Pro.  They’ll sell it and ship it direct to you, no dealer.  I suppose PA monitor and IEM sales are up.  

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I suppose PA monitor and IEM sales are up.  

They would have to be, and I wonder if Nord hasn't just been ahead of the curve on "sampling for headphones" with their pianos. Everyone agrees their pianos sound great on recordings and demos, and then some of those same people don't like how they perform live. I wonder if those complaints about live sound would still be as potent in an in-ear situation. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

I wonder if Nord hasn't just been ahead of the curve on "sampling for headphones" with their pianos. Everyone agrees their pianos sound great on recordings and demos, and then some of those same people don't like how they perform live. I wonder if those complaints about live sound would still be as potent in an in-ear situation. 

They do have one binaural sample (specifically optimized for headphones). But another common phenomenon seems to be that people who complain about live sound seem to often think the boards sound quite good if they go out to the audience and hear someone else playing it. (Maybe it's a FTEC issue? At least with some of the available actions...)

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

They do have one binaural sample (specifically optimized for headphones). But another common phenomenon seems to be that people who complain about live sound seem to often think the boards sound quite good if they go out to the audience and hear someone else playing it. (Maybe it's a FTEC issue?)

What one expects from a solo piano sample library in 2024 vs. an in-the-mix piano patch aren’t the same. I think it’s harder (near impossible) to add things that just aren’t there than it is to chisel away at a complete slab.

 

I also appreciate a stage piano user may want several choices of in-the-mix patches and only one deeply sampled solo piano.  

[Mark Schmieder]

I am so confused! I got an email from Kraft today showing a price drop on this model, which I only noticed after seeing the Kawai action and thinking it's a new digital piano (I don't follow Nord closely as mine got stolen years ago and I have a bitter aftertaste of how things that are red attract thieves). Maybe they meant their discount vs. MSRP?

 

Not sure if the previous edition used Korg; I would have thought I would have read about that if so, and would have been interested trying it despite the theft risk if I bought one (yes, EVERYTHING that was stolen was either red or orange!).

 

I'll try to catch up with this thread later; this is our busiest time of year due to end of fiscal year financing and demos to secure funding for next year.

 

At any rate, I'm kind of surprised that Kawai would sell their action to a competing company, even though they make money that way as well, but they may see the buying audience as a bit different in character overall and not direct competition.

[ElmerJFudd]

33 minutes ago, Mark Schmieder said:

I am so confused! I got an email from Kraft today showing a price drop on this model, which I only noticed after seeing the Kawai action and thinking it's a new digital piano (I don't follow Nord closely as mine got stolen years ago and I have a bitter aftertaste of how things that are red attract thieves). Maybe they meant their discount vs. MSRP?

 

Not sure if the previous edition used Korg; I would have thought I would have read about that if so, and would have been interested trying it despite the theft risk if I bought one (yes, EVERYTHING that was stolen was either red or orange!).

 

I'll try to catch up with this thread later; this is our busiest time of year due to end of fiscal year financing and demos to secure funding for next year.

 

At any rate, I'm kind of surprised that Kawai would sell their action to a competing company, even though they make money that way as well, but they may see the buying audience as a bit different in character overall and not direct competition.

Nord Grand 1 also had an action produced by Kawai. It’s one of the main selling points of this model vs. Nord Piano 5.  
 

As a side note, Korg has also updated their Grandstage X. 

[AnotherScott]

Nord has never used a Korg action, but people do sometimes confuse the homonym nomenclature... Kawai's action in question is RHIII whereas Korg has an action called RH3.