Line Array Systems - Impacts on how we should do things.

[CEB]

For a quite a while until I quit this January,  most of my gig were on large line array system.  Sometimes flying left, right and center hangs.  Sometimes just right and left hangs.    I cut my teeth gigging on large sound reinforcement systems in the 80.  I gigged in the 70s but it was just small time bar and club stuff.  Most my approaches, 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' ( if you can call it that ) came from the 80s and 90s.   I'm just a honky tonk piano player. 

 

Sounds systems changed a lot in 40 years.  I never really thought about how modern line array systems  may have impacted  how keys are presented in front house.  I guess that mono/ stereo thread got me thinking about it but that thread has completely jumped the shark and I get the impression lot of the conversations are coming from  powered speakers on sticks perspective.   Maybe it doesn't change a thing in how we should set-up our rigs.  Thought I would start a fresh thread.  This may not go anywhere.

 

Does anybody think we can get away with more due to how line arrays function?  Should anything about line arrays alter the way we should do things?  Doesn't really matter to me anymore.  I retired from real gigging.  Just curious. 

[Delaware Dave]

When our band does the occasional acoustic gig for which i mostly bow out the substitute player has a Bose Line array.  Out front it sounds pretty good but from the stage (they put the line array behind them so to avoid having to setup monitors) they sound like shxt. everything sounds like mud.  so if the use is for projecting as mains i guess i would say they work.

 

a couple of years ago i went to see a zeppelin cover band in a place that holds about 125 people.  they used Turbo Inspire line arrays, two in the front of the stage and two in the back of the room.  When they did the John Bonham solo the speakers projection engulfed the room.  i was so impressed that i took photos of the line array and then researched them the next day.  Also my niece got married last year and at the wedding the DJ used two EV Evolve(?) line arrays, completely filled the 'large' room with a 30 foot ceiling that held close to 300 people.  They sounded awesome.  

[Stokely]

I've gone direct for the last decade and I use IEMs for most of that time as well.  I'm not really sure what I'd be doing any differently no matter what the PA is, other than perhaps that stereo/mono choice.   I rarely use any EQ (other than a high pass) for example because I can't hear what is coming from the house speakers, and how would I EQ dozens of patches for a venue anyway.  I can't stand that term "cut through a mix" because if everyone did that it would be quite the crap mix (not a mix at all).  Whenever I hear it I just think "bad monitoring".    So all my instruments sound "normal" to me.   The engineer(s) can EQ as they see fit for out front.

We don't play any large shows to be sure.  We have two PAs, one is EV Evolve 50s and the other a more traditional subs+tops (QSC).  I don't change anything.

[CEB]

I started sending stereo in 2013 because of my use of sampled sound effects.  We played through stereo systems. I would fire samples from the touch pads and stereo would give the sounds movement … like a speeding car that would zoom from one side to the other I used in a Rihanna tune.  
 

I mostly monitored my IEMs in Mix Mode, which is dual mono. On the Shure you can mix channel A and B from your receiver pack. A was just my keyboard submix. B was my monitor send from the desk with no keys.  It was an easy way to keep on top of things.  Our vocalist and guitarist had a habit of physically singing and playing harder as we got into the show.  Eventually we got apps where we could mix our own monitors but I still liked the Mix mode trick. 
 

Stereo IEMs do sound good. 

[MAJUSCULE]

I dunno about the mono vs stereo thing, I just ask the tech what they want from me. But I also have always considered my ears to be pretty bad lol. I can barely ever discern the tone chasing stuff guitarists and bassists do, never mind a studio mixing engineer.

 

Do you mean taking more liberties with sound design because the systems can reproduce sounds more accurately across a wider frequency range? Capabilities at the mixing board could probably factor in as well. Definitely some pretty impressive systems in larger rooms and festivals. The whole dubstep being mainstream era and EDM as a whole taking off has forced production companies to have the best of the best on hand.

[CEB]

I mean like fewer problems with things  like phasing issues. 
 

I’m not even sure how these systems are setup when they fly center line arrays.  Is the whole thing mono or is center a mix of right and left.  I have friends I guess I could ask. 
 

I moved out to a farm and don’t get out much anymore. 😀

[JamPro]

From where I sit (on stage), I have no way to know what the PA sounds like to the audience.  I can only know what it sounds like in the spot where my two ear are - where I sit.  So I don't worry about the PA or how it sounds to the audience.

 

These days I monitor the keys with either a powered speaker (Yamaha DXR) or IEMs.  I don't imagine changing that whether the PA is a line array type or a point-source type.  I don't imagine changing that if a band member starts using a personal line-array monitor system.

 

I have worked to EQ some piano sounds in my live rig to roll off the bass response, and to minimize reverb.  What kind of PA we are playing thru has little impact on my rig.

[Docbop]

Problem with line arrays is they are typically high above the stage sometime even a bit forward of the stage.  and then subwoofer down on floor level, but that means the people sitting up front the highend is blowing past their heads and they get blasted with the low end from the sub's.    So doing line array need to have front fills about stage level to get the highend to the people sitting close to the stage.   

 

But line array and even speakers on poles is about getting the FOH over the peoples heads to fill the room and to increase the sight lines so more tickets can be sold.    All about getthg the PA off the floor and peoples bodies are blocking the sound distribution.    

[CEB]

That surprises me because most of these line array systems fly so the bottom section  are aimed at the front row.  I can go through my phone and see it I have any pictures. 

[Docbop]

10 minutes ago, CEB said:

That surprises me because most of these line array systems fly so the bottom section  are aimed at the front row.  I can go through my phone and see it I have any pictures. 

Bottom section is probably just subwoofer.    Still want front fills for people us front so they don't hear mainly low end.   

[CEB]

I don’t have much. All my pictures are of rigs and stage stuff. Here is one where we were setting up for a private party where it got super in seasonably cold. That is how I remember that date. It was freezing. The pic is weird. It looks like the array is floating. You can’t see any rigging. But see how the bottom of that ray curves.  Subs are on the ground. 

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, CEB said:

I don’t have much. All my pictures are of rigs and stage stuff. Here is one where we were setting up for a private party where it got super in seasonably cold. That is how I remember that date. It was freezing. The pic is weird. It looks like the array is floating. You can’t see any rigging. But see how the bottom of that ray curves.  Subs are on the ground. 

 

Those are hanging pretty low for line array so I'm guessing the area to be covered was small for outdoors.  Hanging that low the with subs below the people in front should hear a full sound.   If me I might of grabbed a couple more monitors and turned them facing out toward the audience and send FOH mix to them for some front fill being the spread of the PA is a bit wide.     

[CEB]

Look like it was small.  I think it was a party for major charitable benefactors of ARC.  From the bench... It was small.  The guest had heaters.  LOL

 

Dang this was a while ago, no Kronos 2 and I'm was still taking out the XK-3c and the Yamaha.

[TJ Cornish]

Are you guys talking actual line arrays as provided by professional sound companies costing $100K+ or are you talking about "line arrays" e.g. Bose stick things, anything with 2 boxes on top of each other on a pole, or anything sold at Guitar Center?

 

An actual line array only works like a line source if it is long enough to have pattern control down to some reasonable frequency. Anything shorter than 6' tall (meaning actually 6' worth of boxes) is a "dash" array, and doesn't have all of the acoustic advantages of the real deal. There can be some advantages if designed well - one of the pictures here is a JBL VRX constant curvature system, and if designed and deployed correctly, can provide good coverage and sound, however the rush of the last 20 years for everybody to own a "line array" has created a lot of wannabe products that are arguably worse than a decent point source box, especially if we are talking gigs of 100 - 200 people.

 

Line arrays work on the principle of destructive interference - level consistency over distance works when the array is shaped like a "J" where more boxes at the top of the array firing on the back of the room equal out with fewer boxes covering the center and front of the room. In theory this means you can have even SPL at any distance; in practice this only works down to whatever frequency your array is long enough to have pattern control over. If your array is too short, you get all of the negatives of interfering drivers with none of the advantages of any pattern consistency.

 

I owned and ran a small JBL Vertec line array system for a decade and it was a good run and gun system as I had to cover a different shaped room every gig, but when my church needed new PA speakers and we had the luxury of choosing the right speaker for the room out of a catalog, we picked a great point source box (EAW QX500 series) that sounds WAY better than the average line array would.

 

Answering the question more directly - if you're playing through a "real" line array at a big show, it is likely a lot more of the nuance of your instrument can be reproduced and heard because the gear and the operators are higher class than the typical small venue where stage volume and low $$ equipment lack the ability to accurately reproduce your instrument. This may mean you don't have to go with your favorite 'ice pick grand' to cut through the mix; you can actually pick something musical.

 

One trick I do irrespective of speaker style is to record a couple minutes of noodling to the internal sequencer (if equipped on your board), and then I'll hit play and go out and listen to how the speakers are producing my tone. I may roll off some low mids, pick a different patch, make a mental note that I may need to keep the piano more forward and not overly wash it with pads, etc. By doing this I'm auditioning not just the speakers but the venue as well. The good news is that the room is going to sound its worst empty; when the punters arrive they soak up some of the room reflections and life improves to a degree.

 

If you have a rich uncle and are looking for an amazing box, the Meyer X40 is about the best sounding portable point source box on the market and will outrun any of the prosumer line arrays in terms of fidelity. Unfortunately the cost per box is in the range of a high-end keyboard workstation.

 

[CEB]

Thanks.  I'm the OP.  I'm talking about the pro level line arrays.  The real thing. Thanks again.

[stoken6]

9 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

An actual line array only works like a line source if it is long enough to have pattern control down to some reasonable frequency. Anything shorter than 6' tall (meaning actually 6' worth of boxes) is a "dash" array, and doesn't have all of the acoustic advantages of the real deal.

This. Lots of companies are doing a "little stick" of four 2in speakers, an empty column, and a woofer in the base. Not a real line array.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Nathanael_I]

On 12/15/2023 at 9:04 AM, CEB said:

I mean like fewer problems with things  like phasing issues. 
 

I’m not even sure how these systems are setup when they fly center line arrays.  Is the whole thing mono or is center a mix of right and left.  I have friends I guess I could ask. 
 

I moved out to a farm and don’t get out much anymore. 😀

Line arrays do have more phase cancellation than point-source boxes.  That said, they offer deployment flexibility for sound company operators, which often is more important than sound quality.  I think you will find they are deployed in every configuration from mono to stereo.  Most people hear something that is not a perfect stereo image.  But it still sounds better in most seats as stereo, in my opinion.  I run my large Danley tops (covers about 3000 people outside) in stereo.  The wall of subs is mono. 

[CEB]

That is what most the contractors I talked to on my gigs did.  Stereo tops/mono subs.  Thanks. 

[Docbop]

7 minutes ago, CEB said:

That is what most the contractors I talked to on my gigs did.  Stereo tops/mono subs.  Thanks. 

Bass is basically non-directional that why sub woofers can be placed just about anywhere.  

[jazzpiano88]

I've always been astounded how much those systems cost.    You have 30 + boxes at $10k + per pop pushing close to $1M for an arena

[Docbop]

36 minutes ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I've always been astounded how much those systems cost.    You have 30 + boxes at $10k + per pop pushing close to $1M for an arena

Don't forget the cost of all that rigging, transporting, and accident insurance.     A lot of risk flying that much weight above people's heads.    

 

When I worked the Yes tour a stadium date was added to the tour that wasn't planning for, but manager see a chance to make money they just say Yes.    We'll we realize the PA we were carrying for the tour was too small to do a stadium with.   We were using a Clair Brother system so Roy Clair checks on what other tours are they doing the we could borrow their system for the day.    Ends up Elton John's tour was close and one of his systems was available so Elton said fine and let us borrow his system.    We go to do the stadium gig and the PA is first thing we setup because that determines the width of the stage area.    So fine we get most the speakers cabinets on the wings of the stage, and we start hearing cracking sounds.   The wings of the stage were breaking down,  the extra weight of Elton's PA hadn't been figured in, power yes, weight no.    So we were all scrambling to pull down the speaker cabs.   Then get on the phone to a local lumber years and for $$$ got an truckload of 4x4's delivered ASAP.  Then re enforced the wings of the stage and start putting the PA up again.     Have to say the regular Yes PA had more low end, but Elton's PA sounded so damn good overall.    So there is a lot to PA work besides putting up the system, ringing it out, and mixing the show.