Flexible DAW Mixer Routing - My Cubase Proposal

[Sundown]

 

Hi Craig - If this is considered cross-posting, please feel free to delete.

 

My biggest wish  for any DAW (but Cubase specifically) is to be able to route VST instruments like a hardware synth ... I want to be able to choose on the fly whether I want a stereo output (and stereo mixer channel) from the plug-in, the left or right output only (a singular mono signal), a combined left/right output (also mono), or both outputs routed to individual mono channels (which is a dual mono or split configuration). I go through a lot of workarounds to get the signals I want from rendering, and it would be so much easier if I could configure the outputs and mixer "live" without having to render and re-render when I make changes to MIDI data, etc. 

 

I rarely record synths in stereo. Even when I use both channels, I'm typically using a dual/split mono configuration to do widening tricks, etc. My mixes got infinitely better once I chose to use mono channels for bass synths and individual sampled drums, and I much prefer creating stereo images using sends and effects, versus two channels from a synth. Organs and EPs are about the only sounds I record as true stereo channels (for the Leslie effect or Rhodes auto-panning).

 

I came up with a detailed proposal (including fake screen mock-ups) which you can see in the Steinberg forum. I also forwarded it to someone I know in the company, hoping to get it some attention. I don't think it's something they would do on a point release, but I hope it makes it into v14. My recording/mixing life would be infinitely easier and quicker.

 

Any thoughts or differing views are welcome.

 

Todd

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

59 minutes ago, Sundown said:

 

Hi Craig - If this is considered cross-posting, please feel free to delete.

 

My biggest wish  for any DAW (but Cubase specifically) is to be able to route VST instruments like a hardware synth ... I want to be able to choose on the fly whether I want a stereo output (and stereo mixer channel) from the plug-in, the left or right output only (a singular mono signal), a combined left/right output (also mono), or both outputs routed to individual mono channels (which is a dual mono or split configuration). I go through a lot of workarounds to get the signals I want from rendering, and it would be so much easier if I could configure the outputs and mixer "live" without having to render and re-render when I make changes to MIDI data, etc. 

 

I rarely record synths in stereo. Even when I use both channels, I'm typically using a dual/split mono configuration to do widening tricks, etc. My mixes got infinitely better once I chose to use mono channels for bass synths and individual sampled drums, and I much prefer creating stereo images using sends and effects, versus two channels from a synth. Organs and EPs are about the only sounds I record as true stereo channels (for the Leslie effect or Rhodes auto-panning).

 

I came up with a detailed proposal (including fake screen mock-ups) which you can see in the Steinberg forum. I also forwarded it to someone I know in the company, hoping to get it some attention. I don't think it's something they would do on a point release, but I hope it makes it into v14. My recording/mixing life would be infinitely easier and quicker.

 

Any thoughts or differing views are welcome.

 

Todd

 

 

I'm using Waveform but this should work in Cubase. I just record in mono, copy and paste that track however many times I think I need and drop plugins on the copied tracks only. I like having one track that is plugin free, the clarity is nice. Most of the time it just takes one more track and one effect. I rarely pan full left and right, it seems to sit better if you just move things apart but not so far. Easy and quick to do. 

[Anderton]

If I understand the concept correctly, its seems Studio One implements something like what you want:

 

 

 

If you have an instrument with multiple outputs, they're all exposed in an "Instruments" sidebar that can show/hide. You can then check which ones you want to have show up as mixer channels. In the example above, the Toms are being controlled by a VCA channel. The Overhead and Room mics have been sent to a bus, but the tracks themselves have been hidden to neaten things up. 

 

If you have stereo tracks but want to make them mono, the channel panpots have balance, binaural, or dual pan modes. You can select dual pan and pan both panpots to center (e.g., like the Pro Tools dual panpots). If you want to be able to make this change with one click, you can insert a Dual Pan plugin with both panpots set to center (or have them populated as part of a Track Preset for that instrument, so you don't have to insert them each time). Then, you enable the plugin for mono, and bypass it for stereo. 

 

Being able to send tracks to buses to do weird things is fun , and then you can hide the tracks.

 

Does that do what you want? I don't have the latest version of Cubase, but maybe it has something like this? I can check out later in an earlier version if you want.

[Sundown]

Hi Craig,

 

Apologies for the delay. Cubase is similar in that you can activate additional outputs for an instrument (which are inactive or hidden by default), you can route a stereo instrument to a mono buss, or with panning plug-ins or even the balance panner (which can narrow to a collapsed mono-ish signal), you can do many of the same things as Studio One. But one of the unfortunate things with most virtual instruments is that all of the additional outputs (and the main output) are stereo.

 

I want to take this to a new level that matches what I do with hardware.

 

If I’m recording my Kurzweil PC361, I may (rarely) choose to run both L/R outputs to my converter and record it as stereo to a single stereo channel. I may choose to record both L/R outputs but as separate, independent mono channels so that I can apply stereo spread tricks or independent processing. Most often, I’ll grab the left output only and I might capture a summed mono signal by pulling out the right plug (jack normalling on the Kurz triggers a summed signal), or I may just grab the true left channel only and leave the right connector plugged in. Maybe I’ll even record the right channel-only as a mono signal because it has a component that only appears on that side. 

 

This is the level of flexibility I want with virtual synths and drum machines, and the with the dialogs I’ve laid-out in that post it would be achievable (with no changes to existing plugins or the VST SDK). It would save me so much time to get the routing I want ‘live”, adjust and edit the MIDI parts as needed, and then render exactly the output channels I want. I agree that you can do some workarounds to achieve similar results (though not all of them), but it’s tedious at best and if I have to go back and tweak a part, I’m re-rendering, etc. and wasting time.

 

Best of all, if someone doesn’t want to bother with this functionality, they can still just activate additional stereo outputs and channels by default. My solution just gives them infinitely more options for routing.

 

My mixes really started to get better once I realized the advantage of select, mono signals and getting away from the stereo train wrecks that can occur when too many parts are clashing in the spectrum.

 

Hopefully Steinberg listens to my suggestion and can adopt this. I can take credit for the track division bar in Cubase (the horizontal line that allows you to split the screen). That was a suggestion they implemented 20 years ago based on a post/recommendation.

 

Todd

 

 

[Anderton]

Okay, I think I see what you're getting at...you want the flexibility within the instrument itself, rather than run whatever existing outputs it has to a mixer, and have it be responsible to the mono conversions, stereo choices, etc. Correct?

[Sundown]

Hi Craig,

 

Ultimately I want to route a virtual instrument (in real-time) with the same freedom I have with a physical instrument. Using a stereo synthesizer as an example, In the physical realm I can take my Kurzweil stereo outputs and I can plug them into a stereo channel on my Mackie compact mixer. I can take those same two cables and I can instead plug them into two mono channels and treat them as two totally separate entities. I can unplug one of the cables from the mixer and toss the connector on the floor and only get one of the channels from the instrument. And if I reach around to the back of the Kurz, I could remove the right connector which would trigger a summed L/R mono signal from the left output.

 

To your question, one way to accomplish this would be within the plugin instrument itself. But that would require hundreds of plugin manufacturers to change their instrument or code to my liking, which won’t happen. 

 

My proposed solution within Cubase is to handle it between the instrument and the mixer. You could also look at it as a mixer-side solution, but it’s almost a distinction without a difference.

 

With my proposed dialog window (attached), I want Cubase to say “I see the instrument is sending a stereo output. What do you want me to do with it? How do you want it routed to the Cubase mixer?”.

 

The third column from right is the magic and critical feature that allows me to take a stereo output from the virtual instrument and route it to the mixer in any channel configuration I want. I can pick a stereo channel (default), dual mono (two mono channels), the left channel, the right channel, or mono summed with -3/-6 dB pan law compensation. This would allow any existing plugin instrument to be treated with the same flexibility as a hardware instrument, using my Kurzweil example above. 

 

I don’t know how common my methodology is, but I never want a snare sample to be stereo. A stereo kick makes no sense to me. A synth bass is always mono in my book. And even with pads and larger sounds, I prefer dumping a channel and creating my own stereo image with effects and panning. And if I do record both channels, I’ll often split them as two mono channels and do some delay / pitch shift for widening.

 

My proposed solution allows me to do all of this without rendering, and if I do render-in-place, I’m getting the exact channel and signal configurations I want.

 

Todd

[Anderton]

Got it. I saw the proposed output config on the Steinberg forum, but it didn't register because I can end up with the same ultimate result in Studio One. But (putting on my patent expert witness hat, LOL) the novel aspect of what you're proposing is not making these routing changes at the instrument or at the mixer, but in between the two. 

 

Given that Nuedo is Atmos-friendly, you might want to mention to Steinberg that this kind of intermediate routing option will become increasingly important if multichannel immersive sound takes over the world. So they might as well get in on the ground floor! Routing audio to 7.1.2 or whatever is a lot more complicated than stereo. 

[Sundown]

I really hope they do incorporate this. I know it’s technically possible/feasible (v13 offers switchable mono/stereo channels on all but VSTi’s). I just don’t know if they saw my post, or if the right people are watching the forum.

 

I forwarded it to an acquaintance on the training/marketing side of the business. I may look through my Rolodex and see if I still know anyone on the development side.

 

I just know for me, it would save hours of time and exponentially increase my enjoyment of the product. I can’t think of a single feature that would be more important to me or impactful. It’s that profound to my style of working.

 

Todd

[Sundown]

On 12/16/2023 at 11:33 PM, Anderton said:

 

Given that Nuendo is Atmos-friendly, you might want to mention to Steinberg that this kind of intermediate routing option will become increasingly important if multichannel immersive sound takes over the world. So they might as well get in on the ground floor! Routing audio to 7.1.2 or whatever is a lot more complicated than stereo. 

 

Hi Craig - I was thinking about your comment, and to date, nothing feature-wise has ever made me want to cross-grade to Nuendo. Most of the differences are really for film and post and of no interest to me as a musician. But, if Steinberg did put this functionality only in Nuendo, I would jump. I want the routing that badly. But I still think it belongs in Cubase and I think it would be pretty straightforward to implement (given the other routing changes they’ve made in v13). 

 

I will mention the Atmos consideration to my marketing friend. Thanks again.

 

Todd 

[Anderton]

With Atmos being the bright new shiny toy in DAWs, it has built-in appeal to marketing people   They're also probably looking in the rear-view mirror at what Logic and Studio One are doing.