Logic Update for the Apple Silicon crown - 10.8

[ElmerJFudd]

[David Emm]

9 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

Holy Moog, that's tempting. I've been percolating along with 10.6 for some time now. Hopefully, stepping up here won't cause any glitches in my existing Logic Projects. That can happen, but thankfully less so these days. Logic usually up-converts cleanly with just a prompt or two. I like seeing Alchemy become more sample friendly and I'll be contrasting their Mastering Assistant with Master Plan. Every time I encounter a need, Logic has a good answer more often than not.   

[ElmerJFudd]

I hear they finally fixed plug-in delay compensation on sidechaining.  Looking for confirmation.  

[ElmerJFudd]

Yes, it's true, they've fixed this long standing issue.  And many other things.  

 

"Delay Compensation with side-chained plug-ins is now calculated accurately."

 

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718

[DeltaJockey]

Did the update in the hope that a bug which has surfaced recently for me may have been fixed, or at least confirmed where the problem lies. I have a problem with significant audio dropouts which has nothing to do with buffer size or cpu grunt. Some of my existing projects which I've never had a problem with in the past are showing this issue, and it coincidentally has shown up since I upgraded my Montage, and its stupendous updated audio usb interface. Alas the Logic update has not changed things. The confusing thing is that there are reports of a similar problem in Logic running with Ventura or Sonoma that have nothing to do with the Montage audio. To confuse things more for me, people using Kontakt have also reported issues. So, I just don't know where the source of the problem is. It does seem to be worse with increasing MIDI note data over the USB interface too. And gets worse the more NI plugins that are running in Logic, but not other vendors. It's also comes in waves. When it does happen the CPU usage on my Mac Studio is almost nothing.

 

My initial impressions of 10.8... Not got into the extra features, but the Record button behaviour has changed and the color of the plugin button has gone from blue to green like the midi plugin button. Superficial, I know!

[Stokely]

Some of the recent performance issues with Logic across various machines I've been reading about--including some of the various new ones--have me a bit hesitant of buying a new Mac, frankly.  There is absolutely no excuse for an Apple DAW to have bad performance on Apple hardware, putting aside ancient machines perhaps.  DeltaJockey's issue sounds like it may be at least partially an NI issue, but I'd be the same ballpark since I have Komplete and use Kontakt all the time.

I'm not right at the buying point just yet, but I'm keeping an eye on how all this is going.   If I decided to go back to windows I'd be just fine, I have lots of 3rd party stuff and use windows all the time for work.  It would save me some money frankly depending on the DAW I got.  Unfortunately for my wallet the one I'd prefer if not Logic would be Ableton Suite  

Anyway, I was watching a thing on the update and they appear to have made it simpler to have external plugins (like Kontakt) play Drummer tracks.  You can do it already using track aliases but you won't need those now.   I don't really like the Logic drums that much though I will admit having the Producer kits (i use the unmixed) come up already in a track stack and with separate tracks is very nice.  I can route things via Kontakt and create separate tracks and save as template but it's just so quick and easy to set up the Logic ones.  I really wish they'd update those kits or at least add some more sounds (only kicks I like at all are the "studio" ones for example).

[ElmerJFudd]

I’m still on Intel for the moment and running Big Sur, I can’t update Logic beyond 10.7.4.  MacBook Pro 11.1 with 2.4ghz Intel Dual Core i5 with 8gb RAM.  That’s a 4th Gen Intel (Haswell).  2 cores FTW! 
 

This was a pretty good machine for its day, but even the current Mac Mini M2 eats it for breakfast.  

[Fleer]

So does 10.8 require Ventura?

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, Fleer said:

So does 10.8 require Ventura?

Pricing & Availability

Logic Pro 10.8 for Mac requires macOS Ventura 13.5 or later and can be downloaded from the Mac App Store as a free update for existing users. It remains priced at $199 (US) for new users. 
 

It’s for the best when Apple makes a line in the sand like this.  Things tend to work best for a period of time when the hardware, OS and version of Logic are well matched. 
 

[DeltaJockey]

I don't want to start the rumor mill, I can't find a fix for the problem, but I also can't blame anything specific yet. I did log a bug with Yamaha support over the new Montage M, as initially I thought it may be the latest Yamaha Steinberg driver. Still not sure that isn't the case. If I'd not read about Ventura audio issues, and NI issues, I wouldn't be looking that far at this stage. Yamaha told me that they will look into it, but said the Montage M is so new, that they haven't had any other reports of issues.

 

On the whole, I'm pretty happy with Ventura on Apple Silicon, but I think the problem is that they keep bringing out new OS's each year, and the third party vendors just can't keep up. NI still state that their core products are still not fully tested on Sonoma. I've updated my spare music Macbook to Sonoma, just to see if things would run, and all the music software and plugins that I've tried seem to work fine on it, including NI, and my historic projects using them, and Omnisphere, Zebra etc. I'm just not confident enough yet to switch over my studio machine. I guess there's always going to be a spattering of people who have any issue imaginable if we go searching on the web, but it was a bit ominous that audio issues did come up for Ventura. I will point out though, that I've been running Ventura for about a year now with Logic 10.7x and had no problems whatsoever. So whatever is going on is pretty recent. Whether that's the latest Montage driver, an OS update, or a Logic update, who knows!

[UnderGroundGr]

The update is not only for apple silicon but also for intel macs. I have a 2019 imac and i installed this update yesterday night...

[Tusker]

Quite a holiday season present, which will take time to unpack. I love logic Pro.

 

So glad they didn't ditch Alchemy itself when they added Sample Alchemy. Alchemy has some unique re-synthesis and physical modeling filters which are hard to find elsewhere. What a hoot Sample Alchemy is though. Expect the Scrub, Bow and Arp modes in Sample Alchemy to be as popular as the DX7 Rhodes was in the 1980s. Until it's over-played. It's so easy to sound good you are afraid to use it. 😅

 

Also, Apple has taken away my binary choice of using Apple's Drummer OR Superior Drummer. Now one can drive the other. Time to go shopping for drum sample libraries. And I thought I was done buying samples. Silly me. 🤦‍♂️

[Tusker]

6 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

On the whole, I'm pretty happy with Ventura on Apple Silicon, but I think the problem is that they keep bringing out new OS's each year, and the third party vendors just can't keep up. NI still state that their core products are still not fully tested on Sonoma. I've updated my spare music Macbook to Sonoma, just to see if things would run, and all the music software and plugins that I've tried seem to work fine on it, including NI, and my historic projects using them, and Omnisphere, Zebra etc. I'm just not confident enough yet to switch over my studio machine.

 

It's a fair criticism that the eco-system can't keep up. If you are running a studio with these tools you want to be 100% bullet proof for your customers. I get it. 👍

 

Like you I am trouble free on Sonoma  and I love that U-He has stated they are compatible but haven't received the green light from Spitfire Audio and Native Instruments which is troubling. Their stuff works though. It could be that two of my favorite vendors have other priorities at this time (leadership/organization changes) and just can't get to it. It's a shame because they make wonderful products. I've invested a boatload of time in Reaktor and would hate to see that gem become unstable, though I don't feel the same way about Kontakt which I view as a necessary evil. Like paying taxes. I know some who love Kontakt though.

 

The general lesson for me during a period of accelerated change is to keep a short list of trusted vendors and diversify away from complex bloated products.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, UnderGroundGr said:

The update is not only for apple silicon but also for intel macs. I have a 2019 imac and i installed this update yesterday night...

But you do need an Intel Mac that made the Ventura cut off.  

[Stokely]

4 hours ago, Tusker said:

 

Also, Apple has taken away my binary choice of using Apple's Drummer OR Superior Drummer. Now one can drive the other. Time to go shopping for drum sample libraries. And I thought I was done buying samples. Silly me. 🤦‍♂️

As I mentioned above--and it's possible I may be missing something about what this update can do--you can already drive one from the other.  Or at any rate, drive a Kontakt drum library from Drummer patterns, which is what I do and have done for a while.   Not talking rendering midi first, which of course is possible; if you make a track alias from the Drummer region(s) and assign Kontakt to that channel, Drummer can continue being Drummer with all the controls active but it will send the resulting midi to the alias track.    

My impression is that they've simply made it easier to do now, you won't need the alias.


---

With the Caveat of "what's in a name"....I also find the frenetic pace of "new" OSes from Mac to be kind of exhausting.   I've been using Windows 10 for many years now (though work is going to enforce moving to 11 quite soon).   Perhaps the normal patches for Windows are the same as Mac but they just like to come up with a new name for them--but my apps don't break after patches generally and haven't for many years.

Stability is the main thing I want from any computer.  I don't care about how it looks (whatever apps I use will be full screen) I care that it works efficiently and doesn't crash on me.   As mentioned, the 3rd party vendors probably are scrambling constantly and that is probably the cause for instability that customers experience.

[DeltaJockey]

Just thought you might be interested, I had a development on my audio dropout issue today. It looks like the issue did lie with Kontakt 7. I opened a couple of my troublesome projects using Kontakt 7  and replaced them with Kontakt 6 running the same library....no problem with audio. Back to Kontakt 7, audio dropouts. I think it was a recent update to Kontakt 7, where the problem started and it coincidentally lined up with me getting the Montage M.

Anyway, I noticed an update today for Kontakt 7, me being a bit cynical, didn't expect a lot, but I thought I'd do the update anyway. Problem appears fixed!

They snuck that bug fix in quietly, as there was very little discussion around the web on it. So looks like Ventura/Sonoma and the latest Logic update are in the clear

 

[mobi]

14 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

had a development on my audio dropout issue today. It looks like the issue did lie with Kontakt 7. I opened a couple of my troublesome projects using Kontakt 7  and replaced them with Kontakt 6 running the same library....no problem with audio. Back to Kontakt 7, audio dropouts. I think it was a recent update to Kontakt 7, where the problem started and it coincidentally lined up with me getting the Montage M.

 

Official update status - Kontakt (current version: 7.7.0)

 

read the notes:

 

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/39/

[DeltaJockey]

15 minutes ago, mobi said:

 

Official update status - Kontakt (current version: 7.7.0)

 

read the notes:

 

https://community.native-instruments.com/discussion/39/

Thanks, I probably missed it because, I saw no CPU spikes on my system when it was occurring. No mention of audio in the bug fixes that I could see.

The fact that they a mention cpu spike introduced in 7.61, and fixed does line up with my timing.

[Tusker]

I am digging Sonoma. I installed the new Logic Pro X. Valhalla's Uber-Mod plug-in crashed Logic. (Uber-Mod is free and like everything else Sean Costello does it's great.) So I went to Valhalla and downloaded the latest version. Problem solved. Easy.

 

Let's try to be fair. Apple releases a new OS every year give or take. That's their consistent track record for twenty years. If you plan to run a business creating music software for OSX, that's public information. The arrival of Sonoma shouldn't be some great surprise should it?

 

Still, the underlying issue that any software company should appreciate is Moore's Law. It's going to keep driving changes and companies like Apple don't want to become obsolete. Sorry to be a realist, but if you are going to run a music software company, it's the business you are in.

[ElmerJFudd]

7 hours ago, Tusker said:

I am digging Sonoma. I installed the new Logic Pro X. Valhalla's Uber-Mod plug-in crashed Logic. (Uber-Mod is free and like everything else Sean Costello does it's great.) So I went to Valhalla and downloaded the latest version. Problem solved. Easy.

 

Let's try to be fair. Apple releases a new OS every year give or take. That's their consistent track record for twenty years. If you plan to run a business creating music software for OSX, that's public information. The arrival of Sonoma shouldn't be some great surprise should it?

 

Still, the underlying issue that any software company should appreciate is Moore's Law. It's going to keep driving changes and companies like Apple don't want to become obsolete. Sorry to be a realist, but if you are going to run a music software company, it's the business you are in.

That’s the price of developing for Apple.  They are constantly on the move and you have to move with them to have access to their customers. 
 

Updating the OS is optional. If all your plugs are working don’t go there until the smoke has cleared.  Even with Apple Silicon, the hype over performance gains on Pro apps was very appealing.  At this point with M3 out it’s a bit ridiculous if outfits like NI and Spitfire aren’t keeping up with their Apple customers. 

[Stokely]

I think the problem is that they tie appealing upgrades to apps like logic to updates in the OS.  And there may be really good reasons for that, maybe these new features won't work without the new OS.   That's quite simply the only reason I'd ever update my OS--to get some feature in Logic.  Well, that and security if having an old OS means vulnerability (my computer is online), and also if the new OS is more stable and efficient than the old.   

[ElmerJFudd]

37 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I think the problem is that they tie appealing upgrades to apps like logic to updates in the OS.  And there may be really good reasons for that, maybe these new features won't work without the new OS.   That's quite simply the only reason I'd ever update my OS--to get some feature in Logic.  Well, that and security if having an old OS means vulnerability (my computer is online), and also if the new OS is more stable and efficient than the old.   

Yeah but you have that window where the hardware is supported with OS updates.  And then the window in which the OS is supported with security updates.  If there’s no money in the kitty for a new one I’ve gotten 8 years out of a Mac. 

[Tusker]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

That’s the price of developing for Apple.  They are constantly on the move and you have to move with them to have access to their customers. 
 

Updating the OS is optional. If all your plugs are working don’t go there until the smoke has cleared.  Even with Apple Silicon, the hype over performance gains on Pro apps was very appealing.  At this point with M3 out it’s a bit ridiculous if outfits like NI and Spitfire aren’t keeping with their Apple customers. 

 

Sure. No update is worth an unstable system. 👍 But you should calibrate your approach to the size of the risk. And to your situation.

 

Both these companies are undergoing management transitions. I am not a power user by any means but the few products I have from NI (Reaktor, Kontakt 6/7) and Spitfire (BBCSO Pro, Abbey Road One and Eric Whitacre Choir primarily) are working glitch free for me. For people like me it's silly to wait for years till NI and Spitfire get around to doing the testing they should be doing. My tools are working now. I'm happy.

 

The risk of something going disastrously wrong on your Mac is infinitesimally small for anyone who has had the pleasure of working with physical multi-track tape. If a plugin doesn't work, stop using it. If a file gets corrupted go to your backups. Or do it the old fashioned way: re-record it. Make music. Have fun.

[analogika]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yeah but you have that window where the hardware is supported with OS updates.  And then the window in which the OS is supported with security updates.  If there’s no money in the kitty for a new one I’ve gotten 8 years out of a Mac. 

…which is pretty much exactly the time frame for security updates for any given Mac. Sometimes less, sometimes more. 

[Redknife]

IF you have an “older” mac that is not supported by Apple to load Monterey, Ventura, Sonoma,

AND you want the ability to install those supported OS’s enabling Logic Pro updates,

There is a free option:

OpenCore Legacy Patcher
The patcher developers have done the work of coding compatibility for older devices that Apple has not resourced.

The link above has a link for supported devices.

I have heard that it is best to go with Ventura over Sonoma in this scenario for best stability right now. Ventura and Monterey are said to be rock stable with the patcher.YMMV.

 

In my case, I have a 2013 iMac 27 with a 1tb ssd and 32 gb RAM. I am locked out of things like syncing notes, reminders, etc because my iOS devices are current iOS but iMac is not current OS. As well, I can’t update Logic. The iMac is still fast with the SSD and RAM. I was going to unload the iMac for nothing but it makes sense for me to patch and install Ventura.

 

These are contentious topics: don’t patch, patch, Logic update, don’t update. Do what’s best for you. Just be aware of this option if you have an older Mac that runs well and you want to experience the updated products that Apple doesn’t support. Be safe and backup, learn more if you choose to patch.
Lots of Youtube videos on the process. 

 

[Joe Muscara]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:57 AM, Tusker said:

Let's try to be fair. Apple releases a new OS every year give or take. That's their consistent track record for twenty years. If you plan to run a business creating music software for OSX, that's public information. The arrival of Sonoma shouldn't be some great surprise should it?

And they announce it in the spring at WWDC, then ship developer and public betas up to the release of the OS in the fall, yet many of these companies act like they haven't had a chance to do any testing of their software against it. Yes, I know stuff changes during the betas, but I wonder why most of them don't even give a qualified "maybe" as to whether their products will work. It really seems like they refuse to even try it until the release, and sometimes not even then. For example, I just searched for Sonoma information from Isotope now and found this.

 

Quote

Currently, iZotope software and hardware products are not supported on macOS 14 Sonoma. We cannot recommend to update to macOS 14 at this point.

We are conducting systematic tests with macOS 14 in order to offer full compatibility of our software and hardware products as soon as possible.

Please note that even though the beta version of Sonoma has been available for some time, we ultimately need to ensure our product compatibility with the release version.

This info was last updated on September 20, 2023.

OTOH, Drew from Universal Audio will often post in their forums that his experience with the UA stuff and the latest macOS has been fine, though official testing needs to be completed, or there's some interface issues with a certain plugin, etc.

 

At this point in my life, there are certain companies I'll deal with because they're responsive to this kind of thing, and others I can no longer be bothered to deal with. Some of the smaller companies don't even say anything about macOS compatibility anywhere, ever. I try to be supportive but when they act like the way Apple operates is a problem, it's like @Tusker says, it's not like Apple's macOS release schedule is something new, and they don't seem to plan on stopping any time soon. Get with it or get off.

[DeltaJockey]

I guess, I've sometimes resorted to doing the software compatibility testing in my own hands. I just install a particular plugin on a spare Mac with the later OS, and do my own testing. The only time this method comes unstuck is a company which only allows one instance of their software. Then I'm pushed into a corner. I'm gradually weening myself off single instance software, as it's not versatile enough to rely on if I want to work on projects on a computer in a different location temporarily.

[Markay]

This discussion has been going forever. I first got involved when I migrated from Windows/Cantabile to OS X/Mainstage in about 2012. My first Mac OS was Lion and today I remain several years behind the current Mac OS version.

 

Apple make it easy to maintain legacy OS's if thats what works for you. Quote taken from from Apple support websiite just now

 

"Mac OS X 10.7 Lion is available for older systems that are not compatible with the latest version of macOS and requires the following: 

Mac computer with an Intel Core 2 Duo, Core i3, Core i5, Core i7, or Xeon processor OS X Snow Leopard 10.6.6 or later or OS X Lion 10.7 already installed

2GB of memory

7GB of available space

Some features require an Apple ID; terms apply.

Some features require a compatible Internet service provider; fees may apply.

 

Any Mac that shipped with Mac OS X Mountain Lion or later will not be compatible with this installer"

 

If Devs, can't or choose not to update, thats their problem. Personally I move on to AU's from Dev's who have a history of updating within a reasonable time of a new OS release. If the AU is mission critical then don't update the OS.

[analogika]

One thing that people seem to forget is that a lot of these vendors are comparatively TINY, with just a small handful of people working on future products, current product, AND support of old products that don’t really throw off any revenue, plus marketing, sales, and support. 
 

Every new OS is a moving target at least until release day, and often beyond that. 
 

Sure you can work to ensure official certification for the next major OS on a yearly basis ahead of time, but if Apple breaks a graphics library in beta 6, what good was that? You scramble to fix again, only to find they’ve tweaked it AGAIN and broken your stuff subtly in RC2. 
 

In the meantime, two of your developers were tied up that should have been working on the awesome new plugin that on its own would have made 20% of your yearly turnover in the holiday-season release pricing special. 

Best to wait until the OS is released and THEN test for compatibility, in hopes that it will be a quick fix, or maybe just work. 
 

OTOH, I have little sympathy for companies that only put in the effort every five years or so (hello, AIR Music Technology!) — for whatever reason. I look elsewhere, instead. 
 

BTW, Apple didn’t move to a yearly release schedule until Mountain Lion in 2012. 

[DeltaJockey]

26 minutes ago, analogika said:

One thing that people seem to forget is that a lot of these vendors are comparatively TINY, with just a small handful of people working on future products, current product, AND support of old products that don’t really throw off any revenue, plus marketing, sales, and support.

I rarely think of the small developers being behind. The ones I've dealt with are pretty good at keeping on top of things. I guess I should go easy though on the small handful of people who work for NI Actually to be fair, I'm guessing NI products mainly consist of a collection of all the tiny companies under one branding representation?