Producing Oneself vs. Hiring an Outsider

[ernest828]

I`m producing my own CD with a friend of mine. We are both experienced engineers but we have not done the producer thing much outside of own stuff. Anyway, I just feel here I am in the latter parts of the record production and I know I would feel alot more comfortable doing this with someone besides my friend and I. I think an unfamiliar ear to my stuff could shed some light. I`m just wondering out loud here so...

 

Have any of you produced yourselves and felt overwhelmed at times like I am right now? Or do you get an "outsider" to help you?

 

Ernest

[offramp]

I usually do my own, but only after I step back from the project for a month or two.

[Billster]

I refer you to An acceptable lack of perfection on the guitar forum. It started out from a debate I have with a producer friend about what makes a great performance. I believe that you can handle it yourself, if you trust your beliefs, and like Offramp said, give yourself a little space to change hats from performer and engineer to producer.

[fantasticsound]

Producing yourself is a very bad idea.

 

Despite previous posts suggesting you can "step back" from the project and approach it fresh, this is a combination of a tiny bit of truth and a whole lot of fooling yourself.

 

The reason is simple. You are prejudiced. I am too. We are all prejudiced based on our experiences. Not the kind of prejudice that is spoken of if you are rude to a specific group of people. The kind that says you like oranges and not eggplant. Preferences.

 

Two problems with being the sole, biased decision maker regarding your music:

 

1. The other problem concerns arrangements, timbres and fidelity. Very often we like what we've done, right from the beginnning. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? But outsiders often hear things that need tweaking and fixing that we choose to ignore, in our enthusiasm for our accomplishments. It's important to have at least one outside source of perspective who doesn't immediately agree with our beliefs about the project.
   

.

Obviously you shouldn't hire someone whose attitude and beliefs are diametrically opposed to your own. That will only lead to battle royales which you will inevitably "win", yet lose in the end because the product suffers.

 

But the best results come from a marriage of different talents. That type of diversity creates a "whole being more than the sum of the individual parts".

 

YM, of course, MV.

 

(That's my opinion and it should be yours... )

[doug osborne]

(not an original thought)

 

Producing yourself is like cutting your own hair.

[FULLREFUSAL]

I produced myself because I didn't have anyone else with talent and ears enough to do it besides me...That's the tough part...I did bounce it off of several people who's ears I trust for opinions though...I'm happy with CD for better or worse...

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

(not an original thought)

 

Producing yourself is like cutting your own hair.

I have to remember that, Doug!

 

The point is, there are going to be situations where you can produce yourself and get a decent product, but by and large, the above analogy stands.

[doug osborne]

I think Bob Katz said it about mastering originally.

[Kaptain Karl]

Go get the latest Electonic Musician. There's an article all about it.

[Philip OKeefe]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

(not an original thought)

 

Producing yourself is like cutting your own hair.

I just shave mine, but I get where you're coming from Doug.

 

For most people, self production is probably NOT a good idea. How many "hats" can you honestly "wear" at once? Can you really remain objective about your own material? About the arrangements? About performances? While also giving full attention to engineering and sound quality and running the gear? And while concentrating on giving the best performances you're capable of? IMO, it's a very rare individual who wouldn't benefit greatly from outside assistance in at least a couple of these areas. You might be able to do all of these things, but chances are you can not excel at all of them simultaneously. It's just too much at once - and utilizes two different brain hemispheres simultaneously - for most people to be able to do a great job on everything without something suffering in the process.

 

The better questions IMO are, what should you get help with, and how do you decide upon who to get to help you with those things.

[offramp]

"Despite previous posts suggesting you can "step back" from the project and approach it fresh, this is a combination of a tiny bit of truth and a whole lot of fooling yourself."

 

For you, perhaps, not for me. I'm quite confident about how I want my stuff to sound, and I make every effort to be objective and (usually always) self-critical. If I get away from a project of mine for a while, then come back, I usually find a respectable number of changes to make, and have no compunction about vetoing an earlier decision. And there are times when I stop work on something altogether when it isn't coming around and I can't get my head around it; those things, I save for a trusted circle of input.

[shikawkee]

As a producer who's also been a recording artist I would much rather have someone else either producing or co-producing with me on my own stuff. Makes for a much better product in the end IMO.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by offramp:

"Despite previous posts suggesting you can "step back" from the project and approach it fresh, this is a combination of a tiny bit of truth and a whole lot of fooling yourself."

 

For you, perhaps, not for me. I'm quite confident about how I want my stuff to sound, and I make every effort to be objective and (usually always) self-critical....

You sound like the alcoholic who consistantly denies his problem.

 

What you fail to accept is.. you're you. Despite the ability to see your project, in a limited sense, with a fresh perspective, you still can't change that you're looking at it as.. you!

 

This doesn't mean you won't produce a decent product. It only means you're almost inevitably going to stifle your creation's potential.

 

There is a reason most great actor/directors choose to direct only or act only at one time, OR have someone else direct them when they play the role of actor.

[offramp]

And you sound alarmingly harsh in your characterization of me. Pretty damning. And rude. Care to explain?

 

I don't rule out another's perspective, but I trust my own judgement and have enough confidence to not worry about it that much. You seem to be bothered by this.

[Dr.Fuzz]

People were shocked when Buddy Holly insisted on producing himself... seems to me that worked much better than if he had let himself be produced by someone else.

 

I suspect most people would be better off with someone else producing... as along as it is the right someone else. But others will do fine by themselves.

 

drfuzz

[GTRBass]

I think an honest question to ask yourself is Are you a producer?

 

That means are you able to fully realize your artistic vision regarding the big picture outcome. You need to have good instincts and judgement on the following levels:

 

1) Sonic spectrum (Mix, etc.)

2) Song selection and album sequence order.

3) Overall arrangement

4) Individual performances

 

Many artists are capable of performing, arranging and producing their own music. Prince would be a good example. So is Todd Rungren. Most of the electronica artists do their own production, and engineering.

 

In contrast many artists are not good producers, or are unwilling to expend so much effort. It just depends on your talent.

[Kris]

Many great artists have and will continue to produce themselves and/or their bands with great success. Many others will call on outside help with great success.

 

Earnest sounds like he might benefit from a producer.

 

JMHO

[fantasticsound]

Not bothered by it at all, Offramp. But I've yet to hear the artist who didn't absolutely marvel at the difference an outside producer made to their project, even when they had been self producing fine material for some time.

 

Please don't take my criticism as a personal attack, it's not one. The alcoholic comment was meant to be taken lighthearted, but the point is absolutely serious. It's very easy to hold on to the illusion that we can approach our own work objectively, but I have yet to meet the artist who can truly be both objective and see all the creative possibilities for their work. This is hardly uncovered ground. In addition to actor/directors, I could cite writers. They have no choice in the matter. An editor will always go over even a star writer's work. It's done because... they recognize the inherent conflict of interest in editing your own work.

 

You are mischaracterizing a zeal for high professionalism for a personal attack. How you work is your business. But I stand by the belief that everyone can benefit from an outside producer.

 

One more note. Just because everyone can benefit from an outside producer does not mean that every outside producer is worth hiring. There are plenty of horror stories in which the producer and artist are not compatible and the work suffers. It's similar to the "work with the best tools you can afford to because they're well worth it, but just because you have the best tools doesn't ensure a great product".

[Duddits]

Sometimes a relationship with a record label can compell you to work with another producer, someone who will take credit for -- or worse, ruin -- your work. For example, I have a simply and wonderfully produced demo that turned into garbage when handed over to another producer at the 11th hour for the version to be released (of course, I was a mere kitten at the time).

 

Nonetheless, if I can work with someone better than me, that's always preferred. Always always always. That's the best part, in fact, of all this stuff: working with wonderful talented people.

 

Although sometimes, it's all me. Just me. Meow.

[ernest828]

I think what is bothering me most about the project I`m currently working on is that I feel sometimes I could do a better job on my own. I also think this could possibly be my ego having a hard time giving up control. I am so used to making all the decisions, executing all the moves that now I often find myself in a more layed back role where I have to actually listen to someone else give insight into my material and performance which I can tell you is mind opening and ear opening. I think my friend-producer is doing a very good job but like I said there is that part of me that wants to do this all solo even though I want his input. Its odd. Is this ego?

 

Ernest

[Tedly Nightshade]

So much better to have a good outside producer! The key is, to know when to say "when"- and go on to the next thing. Almost impossible from the artist's point of view.

 

I continue to stumble along producing myself, though- I haven't found anyone aware enough with high enough standards that I wouldn't be backseat driving the whole time. Everyone else seems to think damn near everything I do is great, at least when we're recording. I know better! The very best of it is great, the rest is just pretty good, if that... I'd like to find the right producer.

[John Sayers]

It's not so much the producing yourself as the mixing yourself IMO.

 

Give your tracks to someone who knows how to mix and give him cart blanch on what tracks stay and what go

 

cheers

john