NYT Op Ed: "we're teaching music to our kids all wrong"

[ElmerJFudd]

8 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I may be in the minority here but I find their music pretty “made up” if I can call it that way. On a first glance everything is of natural and soulful quality, it’s like a bunch of great musicians are making some great down to earth music and it’s very appealing. But it’s that same quality that also creates the feeling of artificiality to me. Kind of like they didn’t play what they actually feel but rather crafted it in a particular likable manner. I might be wrong though. I loved them for a day and thought I found a great project only to find myself hardly needing it on the very next day. And I tried to understand why that was, so that’s my theory. 

All music is made up - I imagine most with hopes of being likeable.   but I get your criticism.  Especially if you yourself like music that sounds like the artist made what they made and don’t give a sh!t what the audience thinks.  I’m not deep into Vulfpeck but I would prefer tickets to see that live over say, The Weeknd.   Just an example.   

Either way.  Players have to find their own music that they would find interesting outside of the Spotify top 10 pop which has been criticized extensively for lacking in harmonic interest.  

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I’m not deep into Vulfpeck them but I would prefer tickets to see that live over say, The Weeknd.   Just an example.

Sure! I’d go to any of their concerts, if they came around here, without having to choose between them and any other band. They’re worth it even in themselves. Hopefully my criticism was not perceived as bashing. It’s rather an under the microscope dissection of why what appeared to be one of my new favorite bands turned out to be a slightly different experience but in no way they are bad. They are great!

[CyberGene]

BTW, to name another example of a band that’s terrific and gets into my head for a whole day, to the point of making me go mad about them and then completely forgetting about them on the next day, and then repeat after 6 months, Porcupine Tree 🧐 Such an awesome band! But I’m not sure why I overdose so quickly on them… Might be the voice of Steven Wilson. 

[MathOfInsects]

I have always admired Vulfpeck while also finding their stuff too cute and contrived to listen to a lot. Crud now I said something opinion-based about a band and the ghost of LD is going to haunt my remaining days.

 

The thing about music instruction is that you never know who is going to stick with it and go on to keep playing. It’s irresponsible not to teach certain elements that are fundamental to the instrument or to understanding music. The last thing you want is for instruction to “work”—for some kid to take to it and want to continue—and send those who most want to succeed off without the fundamentals they really need to keep progressing.
 

On the flip side, you also very much want to be able to “give” music to those kids where their lessons are basically childcare. You don’t want to torture them with endless scales and drills any more than they want to be tortured with then—because you never know which one of them will turn out to be the one who takes to it. You want to inspire, not torture!

It’s a constant balance as a teacher.

[ElmerJFudd]

28 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I have always admired Vulfpeck while also finding their stuff too cute and contrived to listen to a lot. Crud now I said something opinion-based about a band and the ghost of LD is going to haunt my remaining days.

 

The thing about music instruction is that you never know who is going to stick with it and go on to keep playing. It’s irresponsible not to teach certain elements that are fundamental to the instrument or to understanding music. The last thing you want is for instruction to “work”—for some kid to take to it and want to continue—and send those who most want to succeed off without the fundamentals they really need to keep progressing.
 

On the flip side, you also very much want to be able to “give” music to those kids where their lessons are basically childcare. You don’t want to torture them with endless scales and drills any more than they want to be tortured with then—because you never know which one of them will turn out to be the one who takes to it. You want to inspire, not torture!

It’s a constant balance as a teacher.

I feel this way also but have gotten into debate with many teachers (especially guitar teachers) about skipping aspects of musicianship and only focusing on learning a song, next song, next song.  You have them now, you already know they’re into it, they’ve gotten past the hurdle of physicality of playing.  Why not give names to chord shapes and scale types (other than the blues scale), predictable patterns or how to read,  Even a lead sheet and a melody line in treble clef?  🤷‍♂️ 

[Docbop]

5 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I feel this way also but have gotten into debate with many teachers (especially guitar teachers) about skipping aspects of musicianship and only focusing on learning a song, next song, next song.  You have them now, you already know they’re into it, they’ve gotten past the hurdle of physicality of playing.  Why not give names to chord shapes and scale types (other than the blues scale) a predictable patterns or how read a lead sheet and a melody line on treble clef?

 

Being around music education since the 70's and being a guitarist until age 70 then switch to piano,  I can say lots of guitar teachers will or can teach beyond songs and licks. The problem is most of the guitar students are just taking guitar because it easy to learn and just want to learn enough to play some songs and maybe write some simple songs. So it more about the student and what they want, not all want to be a musician they just want to know enough to have a good time.   Can't look at guitar student like you do piano students.     

 

Since I started playing piano and checking out how that teaching world works, I've seen quite a few piano student quit a teacher or quit piano because they don't want to do all the classical stuff, they want to learn to play music they like.    I had the same experience myself with piano teachers wanting me to go the classical route even after I explained I'm in my 70's I don't what take years of classical technique before playing music I like.   I went through multiple teachers even one who said they understood and when a lesson or two were back to old habits and bring out the classical method books.   Took quite awhile to find a teacher who was great pianist and understood me and agreed he could cover all the technique and etc using Jazz tunes didn't have to use classical.   We had a great time and I learned a lot because I was enjoying what I was playing.   Also because of my decades of guitar, bass, and going to music school  I was doing some chord things way beyond l other students and he lile a lot of my harmonic ideas and voice leading.    So my experience with piano teacher was we learned this method as a kid,  we been teacher this method so long we can (and I think some do) teach it in our sleep.   They aren't open to doing things any different and have a set of questions about piano they are willing to answer and if you ask any other question the student is now a trouble maker.    Teaching music is about working with the student and being flexible to work in other music to keep them interested and they willing to work on that classical piece as long as they are working also on a tune they  love.   All genres of music can be educational to teach with.   

 

Okay so like the flames begin....  

[ElmerJFudd]

22 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

Being around music education since the 70's and being a guitarist until age 70 then switch to piano,  I can say lots of guitar teachers will or can teach beyond songs and licks. The problem is most of the guitar students are just taking guitar because it easy to learn and just want to learn enough to play some songs and maybe write some simple songs. So it more about the student and what they want, not all want to be a musician they just want to know enough to have a good time.   Can't look at guitar student like you do piano students.     

 

Since I started playing piano and checking out how that teaching world works, I've seen quite a few piano student quit a teacher or quit piano because they don't want to do all the classical stuff, they want to learn to play music they like.    I had the same experience myself with piano teachers wanting me to go the classical route even after I explained I'm in my 70's I don't what take years of classical technique before playing music I like.   I went through multiple teachers even one who said they understood and when a lesson or two were back to old habits and bring out the classical method books.   Took quite awhile to find a teacher who was great pianist and understood me and agreed he could cover all the technique and etc using Jazz tunes didn't have to use classical.   We had a great time and I learned a lot because I was enjoying what I was playing.   Also because of my decades of guitar, bass, and going to music school  I was doing some chord things way beyond l other students and he lile a lot of my harmonic ideas and voice leading.    So my experience with piano teacher was we learned this method as a kid,  we been teacher this method so long we can (and I think some do) teach it in our sleep.   They aren't open to doing things any different and have a set of questions about piano they are willing to answer and if you ask any other question the student is now a trouble maker.    Teaching music is about working with the student and being flexible to work in other music to keep them interested and they willing to work on that classical piece as long as they are working also on a tune they  love.   All genres of music can be educational to teach with.   

 

Okay so like the flames begin....  

not disagreeing with your observations or what students want.  just suggesting it’s worth it to recognize potential as early as possible and capitalize on the moment - drawing back the curtain for the grand reveal.  
 

there definitely are different types of students and different goals from student to student.  so since education is a business, yes of course you give the customer what they want.  but there are opportunities all along the way to inspire, nudge, push. but only we can guage which ones are ready for it. on this it seems we agree 100%.
 

it must be happening because there are plenty of players on all different points in their journey with different strengths and weaknesses.  

[AROIOS]

21 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

...I’m not sure what it is yet...

 

Progressive Trap, that's what it is.

It's exactly what I expect soulless A.I. to be churning out a million per day in a few years.

(Actually, we were already there 20 years ago, this is not much different from the stuff you get by simply hitting a button in Band-in-a-Box 8.0)

[ElmerJFudd]

7 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

Progressive Trap, that's what it is.

It's exactly what I expect soulless A.I. to be churning out a million titles per day in a few years.

(Actually, we were already there 20 years ago, this is not much different from the stuff you get by simply hitting a button in Band-in-a-Box 8.0)

While there is an electronic influence there aren’t any in the recording as per the player’ that recorded it - even the whistle is whistled by a human.  But it’s not for you, or for me, really.  Although I am intrigued by it and glad that it doesn’t sound like other bands with two guitars, a bass and drums.  ymmv 

[AROIOS]

13 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

While there is an electronic influence there aren’t any in the recording as per the player’ that recorded it - even the whistle is whistled by a human.  But it’s not for you, or for me, really.  Although I am intrigued by it and glad that it doesn’t sound like other bands with two guitars, a bass and drums.  ymmv 

Any human fast enough to machine-gun a string of 1/32th notes can make Trap, the choice of acoustic vs. electric means is incidental.

My indifference to these mechanical styles (which also includes classical/metal/prog "shredding") aside, it's still way more nutritional for the listeners than the garden variety of garbage in the channels today. So I certainly won't disown my kids for digging this. Nicki Minaj? now they need to find a foster home.

[AROIOS]

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

...If you read what people said about rock 'n roll contemporaneously, you will be hard-pressed to find a single syllable that people aren't saying now about pop, or 20 years about about GRUNGE...

 

 

There, you just accidentally discovered the cancer that got us where we are today.
 

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

The whole point of rap is supposed to be the rapping!

The Sugarhill Gang would beg to differ. Heck, even MC Hammer would come out in protest. 😆 

  

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Our role on the planet is to both reject and build on the pillars of the previous generation. We move toward progress/change.

 

Except there's been plenty of "change" and little "progress" (outside of sound design). So whoever the heck "we" are, "we" "rejected" plenty and "built" close to nothing. 😆 

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

Progressive Trap, that's what it is.

It's exactly what I expect soulless A.I. to be churning out a million per day in a few years.

(Actually, we were already there 20 years ago, this is not much different from the stuff you get by simply hitting a button in Band-in-a-Box 8.0)

 

Sounds a lot like Al Dimeola with a rock beat.

 

By the way, Al just had a heart attack while performing and is recovering.

 

edit:   I didn't mean A.I.  Dimeola.     I actually meant AL

[AROIOS]

10 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I may be in the minority here but I find their music pretty “made up” if I can call it that way. On a first glance everything is of natural and soulful quality, it’s like a bunch of great musicians are making some great down to earth music and it’s very appealing. But it’s that same quality that also creates the feeling of artificiality to me. Kind of like they didn’t play what they actually feel but rather crafted it in a particular likable manner. I might be wrong though. I loved them for a day and thought I found a great project only to find myself hardly needing it on the very next day. And I tried to understand why that was, so that’s my theory. 

That's coz most of their stuff IS pretty "made up". They position themselves as a traditional "backing band", which is basically a glorified arranger keyboard with a lot of tasty patterns. It needs a great song writer to inject that last missing piece: a theme, a story. Otherwise listening to their music quickly turn into little more than browsing through styles on a Tyros/Genos.

Once in a blue moon, they do write deeply soulful stuff that gets me hooked. like this one:

 

[jazzpiano88]

31 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

14 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

...If you read what people said about rock 'n roll contemporaneously, you will be hard-pressed to find a single syllable that people aren't saying now about pop, or 20 years about about GRUNGE...

 

 

There, you just accidentally discovered the cancer that got us where we are today.
 

 

I was just going to say, everything started to go downhill and off the rails with Seattle.

[AROIOS]

1 minute ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

I was just going to say, everything started to go downhill and off the rails with Seattle.

Now we're forever banned to set foot in the great state of WA. 😆

[jazzpiano88]

15 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

That's coz most of their stuff IS pretty "made up". They position themselves as a traditional "backing band", which is basically a glorified arranger keyboard with a lot of tasty patterns. It needs a great song writer to inject that last missing piece: a theme, a story. Otherwise listening to their music quickly turn into little more than browsing through styles on a Tyros/Genos.

Once in a blue moon, they do write deeply soulful stuff that gets me hooked. like this one:

 

 

Sounds like Yacht Rock.   Ambrosia with a bit of extra soul .

Seriously, it's great. 

[AROIOS]

12 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

Sounds a lot like Al Dimeola with a rock beat.

 

By the way, Al just had a heart attack while performing and is recovering.

 

edit:   I didn't mean A.I.  Dimeola.     I actually meant AL

I read it as a joke about A.I. before the edit. Wish Mr. Meola have a speedy recovery. 💗 I used to play his "If we meet again" in college all the time.

[AROIOS]

1 minute ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

Sounds like Yacht Rock.   Ambrosia with a bit of extra soul.

It sounds too "black" to pass for Yachtrock for me. If blindfolded, I wouldn't have guessed that it came from a white singer and a bunch of white players. Goes to show that soulfulness can be universal.

[jazzpiano88]

2 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

I read it as a joke about A.I. before the edit. Wish Mr. Meola have a speedy recovery. 💗 I used to play his "If we meet again" in college all the time.

 

That's what I suspected    Al is a hero of mine.   In high school, my first exposure to Fusion and just blown away by Romantic Warrior.  

He has a great interview at Google with a great performance. 

 

He has been a relentless force over the years since then.    He was selling evenings with Al at his home where he would cook Italian dinner and host fans willing to pony up. 

Rick Beato got an invite from Al at his home and it was a really great interview.

 

 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Quote

My indifference to these mechanical styles (which also includes classical/metal/prog "shredding") aside, it's still way more nutritional for the listeners than the garden variety of garbage in the channels today. So I certainly won't disown my kids for digging this. Nicki Minaj? now they need to find a foster home.

 

Quote

It's exactly what I expect soulless A.I. to be churning out a million per day in a few years.

(Actually, we were already there 20 years ago, this is not much different from the stuff you get by simply hitting a button in Band-in-a-Box 8.0)

 

There is quite a bit of descriptive language here that does not suggest how "indifferent" you are to certain styles of music.  😀 

 

 

[AROIOS]

37 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

...Rick Beato got an invite from Al at his home and it was a really great interview...

The two of them chatting and playing in a home studio is about the most enjoyable socialization I can imagine as a musical geek.

[AROIOS]

37 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

There is quite a bit of descriptive language here that does not suggest how "indifferent" you are to certain styles of music.  😀

The "shredding" stuff is not stupid, like Nicki Minaj's "music", it's just boring. And I actually enjoyed some of the stuff BIAB generated.

Give it a try if you haven't. It's a great tool when we are struggling with soloing ideas. The guys at PG Music analyzed the styles of a bunch of great musicians and created some interesting algorithms to mimic them. Most of the results are pretty unusable, but once in a while you come across a piece that opens a lot of possibilities, and that alone would have made the software worth, not to mention all the one-man-band fun you can have with it.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

The "shredding" stuff is not stupid, like Nicki Minaj's "music", it's just boring. And I actually enjoyed some of the stuff BIAB generated.

Give it a try if you haven't. It's a great tool when we are struggling with soloing ideas. The guys at PG Music analyzed the style of a bunch of great musicians and created some interesting algorithms to mimic them. Most of the results are pretty unusable, but once in a while you come across a piece that opens a lot of possibilities, and that along would make the whole software worth, not to mention all the one-man-band fun you can have with BIAB.

Oh I’m very familiar, it’s been around a long time.  Many of the styles are commissioned, developed by players and arrangers who know the style well.  And these days they offer actual audio tracks recorded by players as opposed to just midi facsimiles.  It’s an amazing tool for song writers and arrangers.  I don’t own or use it due to cost and not earning money off that type of work.  
 

I can also see it as a fast track to learning to play new styles as well, but there are many ways to do that.  
 

 

[AROIOS]

12 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

...Many of the styles are commissioned, developed by players and arrangers who know the style well...

That reminds me of Bob "Notes" Norton here on our forum, who's a prominent developer of 3rd party BIAB styles. I've heard his stuff 20 years ago and they were top notch.

[ProfD]

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

So I certainly won't disown my kids for digging this. Nicki Minaj? now they need to find a foster home.

 

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

Otherwise listening to their music quickly turn into little more than browsing through styles on a Tyros/Genos.

@AROIOS wins funniest quotes in this thread.🤣😎

[bill5]

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

The "shredding" stuff is not stupid, like Nicki Minaj's "music", it's just boring. And I actually enjoyed some of the stuff BIAB generated.

Give it a try if you haven't. It's a great tool when we are struggling with soloing ideas. The guys at PG Music analyzed the styles of a bunch of great musicians and created some interesting algorithms to mimic them. Most of the results are pretty unusable, but once in a while you come across a piece that opens a lot of possibilities, and that alone would have made the software worth, not to mention all the one-man-band fun you can have with it.

...assuming you enjoy the UI from hell that is. I'm glad I was able to try it before buying. 

 

Thought tbh I hate BIAB anyway on principle. Here, let software crank out a song for you and you can sign your name to it and delude yourself (or others) that you "wrote" or "played" the song.

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, bill5 said:

...assuming you enjoy the UI from hell that is. I'm glad I was able to try it before buying. 

 

Thought tbh I hate BIAB anyway on principle. Here, let software crank out a song for you and you can sign your name to it and delude yourself (or others) that you "wrote" or "played" the song.

Yes, it does take some effort to come up with a UI that awful. 😆

  

2 hours ago, bill5 said:

Thought tbh I hate BIAB anyway on principle. Here, let software crank out a song for you and you can sign your name to it and delude yourself (or others) that you "wrote" or "played" the song.

Means for ends. I (and many of my fellow cavemen) simply use tools like BIAB and arranger boards to minimize our dependence on band members.

[KuruPrionz]

On 9/29/2023 at 2:33 AM, AROIOS said:

 

The topic of generational difference in musical taste comes up here a few times every year. And it never goes anywhere conclusive or very constructive. All these discussions turn into a predictable mixture of personal observations and anecdotes.
 

In the end, nothing changes, folks simply leave these posts holding their preconceived opinions. A couple of months later, another one of these posts comes up, and we all utter pretty much the same old stuff again.
 

Paulo "SynthMania"s synth-in-Pop webpage reminded me how much crap co-existed with some of my favorite tunes between the 70's and 90's, and that my own rosy view of those two decades is no exception to selective bias.

And I ask myself: even if I manage to prove that today's popular music in general are crappier and today's listeners are more tone-deaf, what's the point of doing that? There's nothing I can do to force-feed Whitney Houston instead of Nicki Minaj down their  throat like the record companies or iHeartMedia did.
 

What I found more helpful, is to simply play a few pieces of chord progressions (for example, the ones attached below) to friends who claim to "love music", and ask them to pick their favorite. I (politely, of course) avoid wasting too much time on the topic with anyone who prefer the 1st one.
 

Btw, well over half of non-musician friends of mine can't describe the difference between the 1st and the 2nd progression. It goes to show the sad state of music education the OP mentioned.

 

 

 

 

 

Nice music and yes, I hear the differences. People in general listen to stories, when we are children we listen to stories and it is ingrained in our beings. 

Chords can present stories but they will always be underneath the primary content for the majority. So it goes... 

[AROIOS]

2 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Nice music and yes, I hear the differences. People in general listen to stories, when we are children we listen to stories and it is ingrained in our beings. 

Chords can present stories but they will always be underneath the primary content for the majority. So it goes... 

Yup, for folks with more musical ears, harmony itself already tells stories. For the average listener, we would have to throw in some melody, and for the hopelessly tone-deaf (just kidding), some lyrics.

It's for this reason I don't take people seriously who reject foreign songs on the basis of language barrier. If the melody+arrangement+articulation doesn't do it for them already, something is wrong with either the song or the listener.

[KuruPrionz]

6 hours ago, AROIOS said:

It's for this reason I don't take people seriously who reject foreign songs on the basis of language barrier. If the melody+arrangement+articulation doesn't do it for them already, something is wrong with either the song or the listener.

I'm from Fresno, spent most of my life there. The diversity is amazing, street festivals would present all manner of Asian, Hispanic, African, Indian, Native American and European traditional musics. I liked some of it more than others, that could have simply been the group that was playing the music or their choice of songs. I don't like all the "American" music I hear either, so it goes...