building a PC (again) - how does this look?

[Jeebus]

With the assistance of someone more computer savvy than I, I am building a new PC. He isn't an audio guy though, so I thought I'd ask for some advice here:

 

What are the best current cpu/mobo combinations? I'd like to use a firewire interface and I'm not sure if onboard FW is the way to go, or if I would be better off adding a PCI card. What about hard drives? Is there any noticable difference in performance between ATA & SATA when it comes to recording?

 

Here's what I've got so far:

 

INTEL P4 3.0GHz 1MB 800FSB

ASUS P4P800-E DLX s478 SATA w/ 8x AUD

ATI RADEON 9200SE 128MB DDR TVO

160GB 7200RPM SATA 8MB CACHE

 

thanks guys

[doug osborne]

Make that two hard drives, and I'd say you are good to go. Not that there aren't alternatives with AMD, Gigabyte motherboards, etc.

 

PCI is still a faster interface than Firewire, so unless you require mobility between different computers (as attractive as that is), PCI-based audio interfaces like RME, MOTU, etc., might provide the best performance.

[Hendmik]

I have the P4P800 Deluxe and love it. My benchmarks made me extremely happy and haven't had a crash yet.

 

HOWEVER, I did have some problems with the SATA controllers. XP would detect them just fine, but after a few minutes, the device would disappear, like it had been removed from the system. A reboot and they reappeared, but obviously not a solution for audio recording.

 

I bought a second SATA drive and activated the RAID then found occasionally when I booted, the controller didn't see the drive, and I had to keep rebooting until the drive appeared, then rebuild the RAID. Never lost any data though.

 

This was too bad since I loved the specs I was getting from the SATA RAID. Huge improvements over ATA-150. But I eventually sold the 2 SATA drives (there was nothing wrong with them), bought a 250Gb ATA drive and it's been smooth sailing since. I work with a TON of samples and I haven't peaked out the bandwidth on the drive yet, so I guess it wasn't as big of a need for me to use SATA as I initially thought.

 

Anyway, that was in January. I haven't checked to see if a new eprom is available for the chipset. Who knows if that would've fixed the issue.

 

lastly, I put 2Gb of RAM in the machine and am pretty happy. If you're a soft sampler user, I recommend it.

 

best of luck.

[Hendmik]

Oh, and I disabled the onboard audio (including the S/PDIF I/O) and connected my Delta 1010's. I can't see using the on board audio for serious recording.

[GY]

Originally posted by Doug Osborne:

Make that two hard drives, and I'd say you are good to go. Not that there aren't alternatives with AMD, Gigabyte motherboards, etc.

 

PCI is still a faster interface than Firewire, so unless you require mobility between different computers (as attractive as that is), PCI-based audio interfaces like RME, MOTU, etc., might provide the best performance.

I second this. Also Norton Ghost for backup/cloning to the second drive is a good idea.

[Jeebus]

Thanks guys. I fully intend to add a 2nd hard drive to the machine. Hendmik, are you suggesting that I go for ATA drives to avoid the issue you experienced? I searched but couldn't find anything regarding a problem or a fix for the SATA controllers for the P4P800.

[polyt]

Make sure you get XP Pro to take advantage of hyper threading. I believe 2000 will do it too. XP Home won't address multiple processors, which is essentially what hyper threading is supposed to behave as.

 

I don't think there's many audio apps that take advantage of HT, in fact, HT has been the source of some bad mojo. But it wouldn't hurt to be future proof. You can always disable it until needed.

 

Don't get too hung up over SATA. In my opinion it's just a good way to avoid overcrowding at this point.

 

For instance,

 

1) System PATA drive alone on primary IDE channel.

2) One or two opticals on secondary IDE channel.

3) Audio drive on one SATA channel.

4) If you need another HDD, put that on the second SATA channel.

5) If you need yet another drive (for a total of four minus opticals) you've still get room for a PATA slave on your primary IDE channel.

 

The point being your able to avoid the performance hit that comes with two PATA drives sitting on the same IDE channel. In this regard SATA's definately worth a shot. And in terms of price, I don't think SATA's any more expensive. If you can get it to work there really is no downside.

 

Installing Windows on a SATA drive is a little more convoluted, but it can be done.

[alfonso]

The mobo is excellent, but possibly avoid Deluxe versions, if you can, as they have no free irq's and are more useful for who relies on on-board stuff. But if you want to avoid troubles with audio cards and have more flexibility go for a non-deluxe version.

[Dylan]

Looks good so far, Jeebs. Id also throw in 1GB of Dual Channel DDR 3200 Memory, XP Pro (its worth the extra $40 at newegg), and a 2nd hard drive. Also, Ive had great success with Intel brand motherboards. Their 865 Perl is a rock-solid board packed with goodies. Asus has burned me in the past, so I dont use them anymore. My other vendor of choice for motherboards is currently MSI.

[Hendmik]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

Thanks guys. I fully intend to add a 2nd hard drive to the machine. Hendmik, are you suggesting that I go for ATA drives to avoid the issue you experienced? I searched but couldn't find anything regarding a problem or a fix for the SATA controllers for the P4P800.

HA! That's a great question. I honestly have no idea what I'm suggesting.

 

I couldn't find anyone else experiencing exactly the same thing, but I did see other people on USENET have problems with drives disappearing from the SATA RAID. Did I get a faulty board? I bought another board and had the same issue, so I don't think so. Maxtor said my drives were fine, so I assumed it was working as intended.

 

But again, I'm fairly sure that the Intel controller on that bus has been updated since then. Did it address the problem? No friggin idea. I haven't tried, although I'd like to, as it would entail buying a SATA drive that I had previously sold off.

 

Do I guarantee you'll experience the same thing I did? Doubtful, or else the internet would be crawling with pissed off SATA/Asus users. The evidense clearly points towards either faulty boards I received, a bad combination of hardware, or (as much as I hate to admit it) an error on my part. I really hate to admit that, because I manage a PC support team for 2000 doctors, engineers and lab techs. F**king managers don't know shit, right?

 

At any rate, Polyt is right. Don't put the OS on an SATA drive. Use SATA for an audio/data drive.

 

And don't get me wrong. I love the P4P800. It is a great board, period. I just struggled with the SATA controller. Pretty minor, actually, compared to my FIC board I had 5 years back.

 

Mike

[Dylan]

I completely agree with Mike that you should keep the SATA HD for the audio and use a regular ATA drive for the OS. First of all, the OS wont recognize the SATA controller without a driver disk, which means that youll have to have a floppy drive installed. This might not be an issue, as Floppy drives are cheap, but some people prefer to not bother with them anymore. Also, youll be able to add a 2nd SATA drive at a later date to setup RAID if you want insanely fast transfer rates for your audio. We have two systems at my office with the Intel 865Perl MB equipped with 2 Seagate 80GB SATA HDs setup in a RAID 0 configuration. Dskbench reports a sustained transfer rate of 98MB/sec! My home DAW is equipped with the same MB and has an 80GB Seagate ATA and an 80GB Seagate SATA drive for the audio. Im planning on adding a 2nd SATA drive for RAID 0 soon. Ive built about a dozen boxes with this Intel MB and have yet to have any issues. Its the most plug-n-play board that Ive ever used to date. If you really want to go out and get crazy then you should check out the Intel S875WP1-E server board. It supports the on-board Intel RAID controller with 2 SATA ports PLUS a Promise SATA controller with support up to 4 drives. You can run RAID 0,1, or 10 with the Promise controller alone! I setup on of these boards for a server and its insane.

[philbo_Tangent]

I too have noticed that SATA drives act flaky. I believe it is due to the mobo manufacturers shipping product before the BIOS driver code debug is finished. Caveat Emptor...

[Dylan]

Weird, none of the MSI or Intel boards Ive used have had any issues with SATA drives, and Ive setup a bunch of them.

[Rim]

Haven't priced video cards in a while, but if you're not doing video on this machine, you may save some money downgrading to a 64MB video card which is plenty for Windows GUI and DAW apps.

[Alndln]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

INTEL P4 3.0GHz 1MB 800FSB

I'll state the obvious.With AMD 64's out there at around the same price I wouldn't even look at Intel at this point.Someone recently gave me a Sony Vaio notebook (to turn into a DAW)with a P4 2.8 gz chip w/500mb DDR,and I gotta tell you this is one slow beast.I know if I built a desktop P4 system it would be a lot better,but man,this is one slow dog.At least I know what notebook I wouldn't buy when the time comes.

[Jeebus]

I appreciate the info everyone.. this is the kind of help I needed. Add to the above components: SATA drive for audio, ATA for the OS, 1gig DDR mem.

 

polyt: good advice on those drives. The SATA is just a few bucks more.

 

alfonso: I believe the deluxe has everything I need..why would I have trouble running audio cards?

 

Dylan: intel mobo? hmmm.. the plot thickens once again. I'm suffering from 'too many options but not enough knowledge' syndrome. Looking up the intel board as i type this...

 

Rim: this machine will be used for some video work. The 128MB card is pretty cheap anyway..

 

Alndlnbot: I was really turned off by AMD after I had a lot of problems with their stuff in the past. This was a few years ago, and I'm open to the possibility that they have improved. I assume this is the case? The reviews certainly look good...

 

thanks again, everyone. As a tribute, I will scratch each of your names into my pc case once it's finished.

[alfonso]

Originally posted by Jeebus:

alfonso: I believe the deluxe has everything I need..why would I have trouble running audio cards?

Well, it happens for musicians to need something like that...you would add some dsp card at a certain point, to have some hi end reverb or synth without having to limit other audio tasks...that's a possibility, and what i say is a very common opinion among intel based musicians.

I don't know exactly what the "Deluxe" has more, just reporting some troubles that someone had...but ok, it's known as a good mobo anyway

 

Ciao.

[philbo_Tangent]

Originally posted by Dylan PDX:

Weird, none of the MSI or Intel boards Ive used have had any issues with SATA drives, and Ive setup a bunch of them.

Yeah, the most recent occurence was an ABIT KV7 board... They are becoming famous for multiple repeat BIOS updates. (As opposed to coding, debugging, testing and THEN selling the product....)

[theblue1]

It doesn't hurt to be ready for the future, but as I understand it, SATA doesn't currently offer much over the fastest ATA/EIDE besides better cabling, etc -- until you get into 10,000 rpm HDs where the higher potential thoughput comes into play.

 

Perhaps someone can shade that in (or just disagree )...

[polyt]

That's true Blue (Ha! couldn't resist...)

 

SATA performance is only marginally better if any all things being equal.

 

To further cloud the issue Seagate was (possibly is still) the only major manufacturer making a true SATA drive. The other big players were essentially selling converted PATA drives. You can read about it here , but note that article is nearing a year old now.

[Dylan]

Jeebus,

 

Here are the two Intel models I like best:

 

D865PERL: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-184&depa=1

D875PBZLK: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-121-207&depa=1

 

The 865PERL has more on-board options including Firewire and a decent on-board soundcard with Optical and Coax S/PDIF output. The 875 has no sound, which could be a bonus if you dont want to have to deal with disabling it if you just want to use your pro audio card. The 875 is also more expensive, but it does run a bit faster than the 865 chipset. There are many reasons why I am so gung ho to using Intel mobos. First, Intel tests their products like mad, listing compatibility documents for everything under the sun on their website. Also, their site is clean and easy to navigate around for finding documents and driver/BIOS updates. Updating the BIOS is also painless and can be done through Windows using a built-in flashing tool. MSI boards can also be flashed through Windows, but it requires an extra piece of software called Live Update.

 

The two boards I listed are full size ATX motherboards, which translate to a non-cluttered layout that is easy to work on. The MSI 865 chipset boards that Ive used tend to a bit more crammed with capacitors crammed next to the CPU socket. I almost broke a few off when trying to install the CPU fan. Another nice bonus with the Intel boards is that they give you a board layout sticker that you can mount to the inside of your case for reference, which avoids having to dig out the manual if you are trying to figure out where stuff goes. The reason I went with the 865Perl over the 875 board for my own system was that I wanted the Firewire ports and the Digital outputs. Although I dont use the on-board sound for recording, I do run the optical out into a receiver for listening to my mixes on a standard stereo speaker. I broke the digital output connector of my Echo Mona when the rack it was housed in fell down a set of stairs (Doh!), so the on-board S/PDIF output comes in handy.

 

The fact is that just about any board you use with the 865 or 875 chipset will most likely work without a hitch. But if you dont want to spend a lot of time tweaking and would like documented compatibility listings then Intel is your best bet.

[Dylan]

Originally posted by Alndlnbot:

Originally posted by Jeebus:

INTEL P4 3.0GHz 1MB 800FSB

I'll state the obvious.With AMD 64's out there at around the same price I wouldn't even look at Intel at this point.Someone recently gave me a Sony Vaio notebook (to turn into a DAW)with a P4 2.8 gz chip w/500mb DDR,and I gotta tell you this is one slow beast.I know if I built a desktop P4 system it would be a lot better,but man,this is one slow dog.At least I know what notebook I wouldn't buy when the time comes.

Mobile P4s are slow, but the Centrinos are reported to work very well with music apps. Sonys hardware is pretty weak, IMO. I think what turns some away from AMD systems are the huge number of chipsets available and how frequently they change. Youve got Sis, VIA, and Nvidia all making chipsets and there are occasional compatibility issues, especially with Pro Audio soundcards. Ive been lucky with most of the AMD systems Ive used, but it is exhausting trying to keep up with whats current and works best. If I were building a gaming box there is no question that Id go with a 64-bit AMD. But for music, I still prefer P4/Intel combos as it gives me piece of mind. For inexpensive business desktops Ive had great luck with cheap MSI /VIA chipset boards and XP Barton CPUs.

[Hendmik]

Originally posted by alfonso:

Originally posted by Jeebus:

alfonso: I believe the deluxe has everything I need..why would I have trouble running audio cards?

Well, it happens for musicians to need something like that...you would add some dsp card at a certain point, to have some hi end reverb or synth without having to limit other audio tasks...that's a possibility, and what i say is a very common opinion among intel based musicians.

I don't know exactly what the "Deluxe" has more, just reporting some troubles that someone had...but ok, it's known as a good mobo anyway

 

Ciao.

You can disable the audio card in the BIOS so don't sweat this one. If I remember correctly, the non-deluxe systems have no firewire, no SATA, no ATA RAID, no Wi-Fi port. I think that's it.