Sounds great in the room, but not on tape!

[coyote]

Hi all,

 

I'm taking a mix straight off a live board to two-track hifi VHS tape. All vox & instruments go either dirct into the board or are miced. The sound in the room is very lively and full. Yet the sound on tape, using identical EQ and essentially the same comparative levels, sounds flat! It's clear enough and each instrument can be heard, but all the instruments & vox sound distant and small. Even keys which go direct into the board don't have that presence you get in the room....

 

I've beeen listening to live recordings as well as live TV events such as sports - the mix in those instances has much more immediacy than what I'm getting. How do I get that on a live mixdown to two-track?

[doug osborne]

Give us a link to an example.

[where02190]

Most likely your direct outs are post eq, and while the corrective eq for the live performance sounds great, it's killing your fidelity to tape. Unfortunately msot all small to mid format live console that have direct outs are wired from the factory post fader and eq, and even those that are switchable are usuallly still post eq. If your budget allows, get a console that has the direct outs pre everything, insert point, eq, fader, so the signal is derived stright off the preamp, or get a rack of outboard pres to go through and a splitter to feed the FOH separately.

 

In addition, while a 58 is a great sounding live vocal mic, in the studio it's limitation become obvious. Consider better vocal mics especially, Beta 87's, Sennheiser 865's etc. Also, run some room mics to add room ambience and crowd noise. This will add some live and dimension to the recordings as well.

[kylen]

Originally posted by coyote:

... All vox & instruments go either dirct into the board or are miced. The sound in the room is very lively and full. Yet the sound on tape, using identical EQ and essentially the same comparative levels, sounds flat!

Please try adding some omni room mics to your direct & close mic'd stuff ! No instrument sounds good 1" away from your ear, do you think ?

 

It's either get more room into the final mix or create some artificial ambience or more stereo 'side' of the m/s ratio for some or all components of the mix.

 

I have a feeling that Valky can add something here about recording this kind of thing if she's around and about.

 

PS: Somebody somewhere on one of these forums once said 'Ambience is the bleed that you need' or something to that affect.

[fantasticsound]

Many people are confused about this particular situation, even when they are somewhat well informed about studio philosophies and technology. First, re-read Where's post. Then read the following:

 

1. A live venue is not a recording control room. Almost universally, no effort has been made to create a near-transparent sound system, as is one issue with recording/mixing rooms. The goal in a live room is for it to sound good in the room. Not on tape. Everything that is done to artificially hype bass for kick and bass guitar... everything that's done to combat feedback and room anomolies to provide a great sound in the room... these things often result in recordings off the board lacking bass or other character.
   
2. The room's the thing. The room itself may be helping the speakers convey a great sound. To the extent that this "eq" is helping the system, you can only tell by comparing a dry output from the board to the sound in the room. Very difficult to do unless your recording setup is outside the venue. Inside, the room sound will always affect your perception of the two-track feed, skewing your results.
   
3. You say you're recording to a Hi-fi VHS deck? 'nuff said. Try recording your favorite music CD to the VHS and then listen back to the VHS tape. That should enlighten you on the degradation you encounter with even the best VHS VCRs. If you hear that much difference with a professionally recorded, mixed and mastered product duped to the VHS, how can your two channel, live feed possibly sound anything but flat in comparison to the room.
   

Put simply, recording a two-track live feed from a console is inherently difficult, even on concert level equipment, unless a separate split is taken and the recording is mixed on an entirely different console (preferably outside the venue).

 

My suggestion? This sounds like a convenience recording, not an attempt at a pro sound. If that's the case, I suggest you add an EQ to the stereo feed, prior to the VHS deck. At least that will enable you to hype the bass (or other freq. ranges) similarly to that in the room. Far from perfect, but it will be better than what you have now.

[coyote]

Thanks for the replies so far... and yes I hope Valky chimes in

 

A few more thoughts and specifics: I know VHS ain't the ideal medium. However, you can put the tape in and forget about it for two hours - which is long enough to cover any gig. And I have VHS music recordings pulled from TV where the sound is very good.

 

I'm using a Yamaha MG32-14fx, with aux1 & 2 giving the monitor/room mix and aux4 going to the tape out. The direct outs are post-fader but the board has no overall EQ, so the only EQs I'm using are each channel's bass, mid, & treble. None of those are far off center. However, the power amp has its own EQ, so I suppose it couldn't hurt to provide a separate EQ for the recording. Unfortunately, placing the recording gear in a separate room has so far been unfeasible.

 

I have a separate 14-channel mixer I can use for a recording mix. And yeah, I've been wanting to add a couple omni mics - anyone know of good, inexpensive omnis to do the job?

 

Finally, the thing that concerns me most is the apparent smallness of the tracks, the lead vox in particular. I would not have imagined a mic-mixer-tape system would get that. I know the mics ain't the best, but I've had better results on lesser equipment in the past (15 years ago I used 2 cheap vocal mics into a Fostex 4-track cassette to record live jazz with very good results). So clearly an omni or two, plus an outboard EQ are neccessary; any other suggestions about techniques for making it sound 'bigger' are welcome!

[DC]

Board mixes always sound like crap because you're mixing for the room and not the tape. I used to record our band live all the time and got some excellant recordings by using an AT 822 stereo mic usually on the ceiling out from the mains in the room and back to my portable dat. Ideally you'd want the mic close to your mixing station to record what you're hearing after all the eq and including the room. This is way easier to acheive a good result than trying to blend in a bunch of ambiant mics with direct tracks. Try it!

[coyote]

An update: I picked up an ATM10a condenser, and I'll be using a Yamaha MT8XII as a recording submixer. It gives me 14 channels - between the group assigns on the MT32 and the direct outs I should be able to get a better mix. We'll test at rehearsal the next couple Wednesdays.

[coyote]

Post-rehearsal update:

It sounds MUCH better now. The vox are clear and sharp, the drums are full and lively. Now I have to begin refining it, but at least the baseline sound is good.

 

I'm going after a "TV mix". When I play a DVD or VHS music program thru the TV it sounds good, and when I play it thru the stereo it sounds better. My current mix sounds good thru the stereo, but crappy thru the TV speakers. I want it to sound good both ways; I'm guessing that some normalization and/or compression might help, as well as EQing it a bit differently.