Novation Summit or....

[marino]

12 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I ordered the Jupiter Xm some time ago. While waiting for it to become available I downloaded the manual and it completely convinced me I won't like it due to a tiny screen and a lot of menu diving with non-intuitive concepts, so I canceled the order. I consider myself a rather experienced synth guy but I still had problems understanding its design. Not sure it's the best synth for students learning synthesis.

 

It's the Jupiter X that's been suggested, not the Xm. From what I can gather, they use different user interfaces.

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, marino said:

It's the Jupiter X that's been suggested, not the Xm. From what I can gather, they use different user interfaces.

I don't think so, they have exactly the same user interface, screen, design, architecture, etc. The X only has more more sliders and knobs, more octaves and aftertouch. But I might be wrong.

 

P.S. Well, if you mean different user interface by the fact X has more controls, hence less need to browse through the menu, then I agree. I'm looking at a picture comparing both and the X seems more intuitive indeed. If you like it but don't need the very advanced features and samples and instead need only the VA capabilities in a more affordable price, then you might also want to look at the System-8. They say it sounds better because it uses an actual electronic component modeling (ACB) rather than DSP (Zen-Core) but I guess that's not important for your needs.

[RABid]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I ordered the Jupiter Xm

Jupiter Xm is very different than the Jupiter X when it comes to programming. I intended to sell my Xm when I got my X but it is very handy in a small DAWless setup.

[RABid]

[CyberGene]

Yes, the X seems more intuitive than the Xm due to having more controls and sliders. I still think it's rather difficult to program in terms of more advanced modulations, etc.

 

As to synthesis learning, I was a complete noob a few years ago and I learned most from the Moog Model 15 app on my iPad. Before that it was a total mess for me. Once I got the basic concepts the next two synths that helped me most were the Behringer Model D (for not having patches and with the simplest possible classic layout) and ultimately Hydrasynth for allowing me to create multiple modulations in a very intuitive way with the encoders and the OLED screens. Before purchasing the Behringer Model D, I owned a Roland SE-02 for a while and loading patches whose actual settings I couldn't see was the most confusing thing. So, I understand the need for encoders when learning synthesis. Seeing actual knob and slider positions is crucial for beginners who are not used to recognizing settings by listening to the sound and reaching for the corresponding control to change it. With that in mind, are iPad synths or computer plugins out of question? 

[marino]

16 hours ago, CyberGene said:

are iPad synths or computer plugins out of question? 

 

For this particular situation, yes. See, this is a keyboard programming/performance course for piano students. It includes exercises (written by myself) for playing multiple keyboards at the same time, using the wheels, pedals, aftertouch, playing in different styles... the programming part starts with the basics, with principles of acoustics, modules etc. - but after two years of study, they are supposed to face deeper ways of programming and modifying sounds. FM, osc sync, ring mod, vocoder, etc. I usually recommend specific software to practice at home, but not everybody is able or willing to do it; so having a single instrument that's straightforward enough for beginners but can also be used for more complex things, is very useful in this context.

As I said, I also teach a course for electronic musicians, with a totally different approach. It requires no real-time performance, but goes much further in sound design complexity. I only use software for that, mainly Surge.

 

[CyberGene]

How about a Fantom-06 or even a Fantom-6? The latter has encoders with LED rings, sliders with LED strips and is closest to what a gigging musician would use on stage when combining multiple keyboards. It also contains a VA engine with a real analog filter and a dedicated control section with encoders. It might be pretty useful for a student trying to split/layer, say, a sampled sound with a synth sound and program/control them on multiple zones and through multiple controls such as the wheels, pedals, aftertouch.

 

 

[marino]

Hi all, I resurrected this thread for an update, and especially to thank everybody who has tried to help.

 

Update first: After a lot of thinking, comparing and considering, I have asked the school to order... a Novation Summit. Looks like I'm going to live with a panel based on potentiometers, for the next few years of teaching. Simply, all the other considerations about versatility, features and ease of use have taken over the pot/encoder thing.

 

However, once again, you guys have done your best to help, giving me matter for thought with suggestions about things that I hadn't considered. Thanks a million!

 

Also, I'm surprised that in all those years, nobody has come up with a better user interface, paired with a 'complete' synth architecture, than the Alesis Ion. Yes, things like the Hydrasynth are miles ahead, but I'm talking about an instrument which doesn't risk to be intimidating for the technophobics, and I know some pianists are...

 

So I'm going to have *another* synth to learn in the next couple of weeks.

[Stokely]

I think you'll be very happy.  And as I mentioned already I think, Novation is a pretty cool company.  I'm torn on whether I want to sell mine--it's not getting used at gigs but that's only because my gigs are much more organ/piano based than synth and my other keyboards do the job with the occasional basic synth part.   And I only use software for sounds at home.   I keep thinking though, maybe someday I'll need more synth sounds live, in my current band or another!

The browser-based librarian may be a really nice feature in a class setting, as everyone will be able to save off patches/banks really easily.  

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, marino said:

Update first: After a lot of thinking, comparing and considering, I have asked the school to order... a Novation Summit.

IMO, the Novation Summit will be a great tool for teaching synthesis.  Have a blast with it.😎

[CyberGene]

You can’t go wrong with the Summit. I often regret selling my Peak. I was in a period when I thought it was wrong to buy equipment and I forced myself to sell it. But I miss it. However if I’m buying again I would definitely get a Summit instead for being two-part and having a keyboard. 

[analogman1]

I have the Cobalt 8.

Yes, they are encoders and the entire synth transmits MIDI ccs.

It sounds great! I was going to sell it because we are mostly "in the box" with synths in the studio, but I might consider doing gigs with it.

The new 2.1 update really made a huge difference.

Tom

[DeltaJockey]

My summit is one of those synths, I decided that even if I don't use it for some time, I won't sell it, as it's a good replica both in operation and build quality of the synths I had in the 70's I wish I still had, or wish I'd had the money to buy. It doesn't take up much space, and looks pretty cool. Heck, maybe one day I'll get a glass display cabinet for it 😁

 

It's the only synth key action I have now, and I use it as a synth action controller sometimes. I used to have a Komplete Kontrol S61, but sold that because my Summit key action does a better job!

[Stokely]

If I didn't have a retired-from-gigging pc361 with screen issues already on controller duty, indeed I'd have a job for my Summit.  I hate to just hold onto things that aren't being used and probably won't be...and again its not for lack of quality, it's just the nature of my live gigs and the fact I use software for sounds exclusively at home.

I realize a short time after I sell it my band will fold and I'll see a great opportunity for an 80s synth-heavy gig  

[RABid]

On 4/26/2023 at 12:11 PM, marino said:

Hi all, I resurrected this thread for an update, and especially to thank everybody who has tried to help.

 

Update first: After a lot of thinking, comparing and considering, I have asked the school to order... a Novation Summit.

And now I am resurrecting this thread as I am strongly considering a Novation Summit as my next keyboard. It is between that and the ASM Hydrasynth Deluxe. How did it go with the Summit?

[marino]

4 hours ago, RABid said:

I am strongly considering a Novation Summit as my next keyboard. It is between that and the ASM Hydrasynth Deluxe. How did it go with the Summit?

 

Well, I don't have one at my place so I have not become a Summit expert yet - but having used it at school for a few months, I can give an opinion. (I have also owned the Hydrasynth for a while, before selling it to get the Iridium Keyboard).

 

- I'd give the Summit a ten for appearance, solidity and feel. It looks gorgeous, even moreso than in pictures. The knobs, though a bit small, feel solid and smooth, and there's a lot of them. Internal power supply. Rubber frame on the bottom. Looks luscious and elegant.

 

- The keyboard I find decently responsive for a synth keybed, once you find the right response curve for your playing. IIRC there are two separate settings for velocity, so it can be tailored to your preferences. Aftertouch works a little differently from most actions that I have played; you push the key to the bottom, and no aftertouch is triggered; then there's a kind of extra step to activate it. It's unusual to me, but it can be learned and used with some satifying graduality.
I prefer this keybed to the Hydrasynth's, both for velocity and aftertouch response. (Yeah, I know the Hydra has poly AT)

 

- The features are impressive for a subtractive synth with analog filters. 16 Voices with Single, Dual and Split modes. Wavefolding oscillators plus wavetables. Supersaws and Unison functions. FM, RM, Sync are there. Dual filters with serial/parallel configurations and several modes. Several Drive/saturation stages. A chain of four effects (distortion, chorus/flanger, delay, reverb) of which you can recombine the order in any way. A 16-slot mod matrix, plus a 'separate' 4-slot one dedicated to effects parameters!
There are some things that I would like to see added: One is "real" oscillator sync, in which you have separate control on the waveform of the synchronized wave, its pitch and the modulation index. Another is the possibility to address individual oscillators to individual filters, perhaps even in variable amounts; currently, the output of the mixer is routed to the filter section as a whole. And the most important one: on the Summit, you can only use a bandpass filter in Single mode. One of my favorite tricks is to use a lowpass and a bandpass in parallel, and it can't be done.
I can't help noticing that the Alesis Ion from 2002 had all those features!

 

- The sound... I'll just say that to my ears, the Summit has a clean, smooth sound. Fantastic for large pads, swirling textures, ethereal leads, ambient atmospheres, abstract constructions, complex motions, evolving flow..... I think you got the idea.
For biting, sincere, aggressive, creamy, old-style ANALOG textures, however... well, you can get close, but you'll have to work with unisons, supersaws, dual mode, detuning, random modulations, distortion, etc.
A while ago, I have read online the impressions by one owner; he described the overall sound of the Summit as "a bit generic". I tend to agree; despite the analog filters, it doesn't sound in-your-face as a classic analog. Of course, that type of sound is not everything, and one could love the Summit character to death... I'm only saying that to build 'interesting' sounds of any kind, you have to resort to the rich set of features that the instrument offers. It's not an instant gratification machine.
Incidentally, I think the same is even more true about the Hydrasynth.

 

- The user interface. Of course I love the rich dotation of knobs. But some of the choices that Novation has done in this UI look a bit weird to me. I'll try to describe a few.
*Some* choices for modulation are included in the panel, without the need of using a slot in the mod matrix. But despite the generous supply of hardware controls, you are going to use the screen menus most of the time (trust me on that). The display, hovever, is rather small, with just four lines, of which the first is for the name of the page, and the other three for parameter names and values. So you have to scroll pages over and over.
What's worse, on such a large panel, they decided to put the display on the far left side. Assuming that one tends to use mainly his right hand to perform edits, you have to cross your arms all the time. And what's *even* worse, the selectors for the three parameter lines are on the left side of the display - so you're going to cover the screen with your hand when you use them. Ok, so let's say that you're using your *left* hand to edit; in this case, after selecting a line, you go to the encoder to adjust the value. And that's on the *right* side of the display, so you're covering it again! Guys, I can hardly think of a worse layout.
In my opinion, the editing system of the Hydrasynth, with just eight main encoders and the mod buttons, it's a breeze in comparison.
Speaking of encoders... yes, there are encoders on the Summit: exactly one, beside the display. All other are pots. I don't think I have to repeat how much I dislike this arrangement. At least, when you touch a knob the display shows both the memorized value and the current one... but for me, it's a pain anyway.
This is particularly true for the envelope sliders, as Envelope 2 and 3 share the same controls. Urgh.
Plus I have found several little quirks and bugs, not fatal but annoying. I'm not going to describe them because I don't have the instrument in front of me, and I don't want to give inaccurate accounts. And also because I'm exhausted by typing all this stuff...
 

As always - "in my opinion".

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

[DeltaJockey]

40 minutes ago, marino said:

Speaking of encoders... yes, there are encoders on the Summit: exactly one, beside the display. All other are pots. I don't think I have to repeat how much I dislike this arrangement.

I know you say.. but they have pots. I find it curious how so many people decry the use of pots nowadays, but at the same time want to recreate the authentic analog hardware.

Most analog synths back in the 70's didn't have rotary encoders, so I guess we are only wanting to acknowledge the best bits of them, and what we really want is a hybrid analog synth full of today's tech?

[marino]

29 minutes ago, DeltaJockey said:

I know you say.. but they have pots. I find it curious how so many people decry the use of pots nowadays, but at the same time want to recreate the authentic analog hardware.

Most analog synths back in the 70's didn't have rotary encoders, so I guess we are only wanting to acknowledge the best bits of them, and what we really want is a hybrid analog synth full of today's tech?

 

My friend, there's nothing philosophical or ideological about it. I don't know about "so many people", I know that *I* dislike pots in a synth *with patch memory*. "Most analog synths back in the 70s" did NOT have it, so they didn't need encoders. And when patch memory became standard in the 80s, knobs started a trend of disappearing altogether from synth panels... (I know, there are exceptions)

 

The reason is, obviously, that when you recall a patch, be it even the initialized sound, the physical position of each knob has nothing to do with the stored value of the corresponding parameter. So you turn a knob, and either the value jumps (and the initial value is lost), or the knob reaches the end of its travel, so you can't push the value beyond that point. A decent compromise is the so-called "pass thru" mode, where the knob has no effect until it reaches the stored value.
With encoders, you tun a knob and the value starts immediately incrementing or decrementing from the stored value. You then read the numerical value or a graphic representation on a display.

Phew. I had 'started' this thread with the plea of not turning it into a pots vs. encoders debate...........................................................................................................................

[DeltaJockey]

3 minutes ago, marino said:

Phew. I had 'started' this thread with the plea of not turning it into a pots vs. encoders debate

Sorry, I won't mention it again🤐

[marino]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:30 PM, Stokely said:

I agree that the Summit is maybe a bit generic

 

1 hour ago, marino said:

A while ago, I have read online the impressions by one owner; he described the overall sound of the Summit as "a bit generic".

 

Now that's funny.... here's where I had read it. In this very thread, one year ago.

[RABid]

One thing I do want, Oberheims and Korgs have filters that get that can get that throaty resonance. Not fully formant, but maybe just a touch for personality. It is what I miss from my Rolands. (Such as the opening to Rush: Tom Sawyer)

[NewImprov]

On 3/20/2023 at 3:43 PM, Tusker said:

I can’t believe I am suggesting this but: Sequential Take 5?

I was going to post this as well. but the more I though about it, the more I thought that the T5 is too dependent on the mod matrix for any interesting patching, and I could see that being too confusing for new students. I do love my T5, though.

 

On 3/21/2023 at 3:29 AM, DeltaJockey said:

Why does everyone hate pots?

 

I don't know about where you are, but here in Oregon, we legalized the pots for recreational use years ago..