Help me find a new keyboard please?

[Marganjou]

Hi, I am looking for recommendations to replace my Korg M50, which I’ve had for 13 years and is having some problems.
 

I am very much a pianist and kind of a dummy when it comes to keyboards/synths (sorry). I use a keyboard primarily to play musical theater. The M50 is the first and only keyboard I’ve owned, so I don’t know much about different keyboards, and I’ve only ever used a fraction of the functions. I’m looking for a mid-range instrument with good sounds built in. I’ve done the setup with a keyboard plus a computer and generally don’t like it.

 

Requirements:

• 88 keys
• Good orchestral sounds that can be edited easily.
• Easily arrange (many many) patches in order and change patches without the sound cutting out. 
• Not too heavy

 

Not important:

• Synthesis
• Recording

 

The keyboards I’m considering are Kurzweil PC4, Roland RD2000, and Yamaha MODX8. I think I can look at the Roland and Yamaha at Guitar Center but not sure where I would get jy hands on a Kurzweil. I would appreciate any insight and advice. Thanks!

[K K]

Add the Korg Nautilus to the keyboards you should test before making a decision. The best advice is simply : take your time to test what is available around is the music stores. I do not recommend to buy sight unseen.

[Marganjou]

6 minutes ago, K K said:

Add the Korg Nautilus to the keyboards you should test before making a decision. The best advice is simply : take your time to test what is available around is the music stores. I do not recommend to buy sight unseen.

 

Thanks for the advice. The Korg Nautilus is probably more than I'd want to spend, and heavier - I have to be able to load in and out by myself using a hard case.

[CEB]

How deep you want to edit and how fast you want the action to be would be my two questions.  The PC4 I think is cool. The sounds are good but I do not find the editing to be near as deep or intuitive as the Kronos.   But I haven’t dived too deep into sound editing.  I primarily using the PC4 as a stage piano.   The PC4 isn’t a fast action but I find it to be good enough for what I’m using it for.  If I was using it as an 88 key synth controller I wouldn’t like it for shredding at all. 

[Marganjou]

I don't need deep editing capabilities. Just basic stuff like EQ, adjusting sustain, etc. I'd love a machine where I can just use some buttons instead of going through a bunch of menus on a touchscreen as on my M50 now.

 

Action - I know at a mid price point, I'm not getting anything spectacular. I think "good enough" is reasonable. I almost never practice on my keyboard anyway - I just use my piano and bust out the keyboard for rehearsals and performances.

[CEB]

You should be fine with the PC4 then.  I like the action. I set the velocity curve to Hard 1 and the pianos darken nicely with an easier touch. It is responsive.  If you want brighter less responsive pianos set it to an easier velocity curve. 

The quick access banks should work well for you.  As long as you don’t need to play Czerny’s Art of Velocity you should be fine. It feel good to me. Just slower returns than what you would get on something like a flagship Yamaha weighted balance action. 

[AnotherScott]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:48 AM, Marganjou said:

Requirements:

• 88 keys
• Good orchestral sounds that can be edited easily.
• Easily arrange (many many) patches in order and change patches without the sound cutting out. 
• Not too heavy

 

I think the best orchestral sounds in a lightweight 88 are probably Yamaha MODX8, Kurzweil PC4/PC4SE, Roland Fantom-08 (in that order, to me). That's not to say that every Yamaha orchestral sound is better than every Kurzweil or Roland orchestral sound, they each have strengths. You might argue for one over the other depending on, for example, whether you're emphasizing solo sounds or ensembles, whether you're emphasizing strings vs. horns, your interest in invoking alternate articulations via playing technique or button assignments, etc.

 

As for changing patches without the previous sound cutting off, MODX does that as long as the parts you are switching from and to don't have more than 4 parts, Roland does it with sounds of up to 8 parts, Kurzweil can do it with sounds of up to 16 parts. But there is a big variable in effects. Roland limits you to 1 part-specific effect per part, Yamaha gives you 2 per part, Kurzweil lets you use as many available effects resources as you want on a single part BUT switching from one effects-instensive sound set to another, while not cutting off, will not be as seamless as on the others, as the differences in the effects can cause glitches in the sound transition.

 

For ease of sound editing, I'd probably rank them Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil.

 

For arranging patches in order...

 

... the Kurzweil lets you define pages of 10 sounds in Quick Access banks, with the sounds recalled by hard buttons, though the names are displayed on screen. You can name and re-order the pages. Re-ordering sounds within a bank of 10 is trickier. IIRC, it becomes a bit of a puzzle game, where you temporarily move something to an interim location to free up the place where you want to move the sound to. (Though saving a sound in a new location is very easy, taking fewer steps than on others... if you're playing the sound, just hold the button down for the location you want to put it in.)

 

... the Yamaha lets you define pages of 16 sounds in Live Set pages, recalled from the touchscreen. You can name the pages. You can move/copy/paste sound from one location to another, but like the Kurzweil, you may have to free up an interim holding location. But also, moving things around can be facilitated with the purchase of a 3rd-party Mac/PC editor. They also have a set list feature that works with their soundmondo service, I've never tried that. (Kurzweil also has a Mac/PC editor, which is free, but in a quick look, I did not see a facility for using it to re-organize favorites.)

 

... the Roland lets you define Scene Chains that are as long as you want, but you only see 8 of those selectable sounds on the screen at once (you scroll through them). The first 16 can be selected with hard buttons. They all can be selected by tapping on them on the screen or by navigating with increment/decrement. You can name the scene chains, and their contents are more easily editable than on the others, since besides the copy/paste of the Yamaha, there are also delete/insert functions that move everything else accordingly. Putting something into a Scene Chain can initially be more complicated, though, because unlike the others, you can't directly just put any of the board's basic sounds into a chain, you have to put your sounds into one of the 512 scenes first, and then once they are in a scene, you can make them part of a chain. Using your M50 as a point of reference, it's like only being able to assemble set lists from Combis, not Programs, so if you wanted a set list to have an entry that was just a single program, you'd have to create a combi with just that single program first.

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

I've been gigging a Modx7 for a couple years now and it's a very nice machine.

Besides the keys (on the 7) and plastic build (for some), the main weakness for me is b3 organ.   The ones in there can work in a pinch to sound organ-ish but the leslie is not good.   That said, the Modx has a built-in audio/midi interface that lets you use phones/tablet apps quite easily, that's how I got around the iffy organ--I used an ipad organ app.

I'm actually considering going to a used Montage 6 despite the weight, because IMO the non-organ sounds are very good, and I like programming on it.   It will either be that or a used Fantom or Kronos, each of which has different pros and cons IMO after much research.

One thing I don't like about the Modx8--I owned a Moxf8--is that it's quite large and bulky and not as easy to handle as some.  My Kurzweil Forte7 is easier to manhandle despite being a fair bit heavier.  

[Marganjou]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I think the best orchestral sounds in a lightweight 88 are probably Yamaha MODX8, Kurzweil PC4/PC4SE, Roland Fantom-08 (in that order, to me). That's not to say that every Yamaha orchestral sound is better than every Kurzweil or Roland orchestral sound, they each have strengths. You might argue for one over the other depending on, for example, whether you're emphasizing solo sounds or ensembles, whether you're emphasizing strings vs. horns, your interest in invoking alternate articulations via playing technique or button assignments, etc.

 

As for changing patches without the previous sound cutting off, MODX does that as long as the parts you are switching from and to don't have more than 4 parts, Roland does it with sounds of up to 8 parts, Kurzweil can do it with sounds of up to 16 parts. But there is a big variable in effects. Roland limits you to 1 part-specific effect per part, Yamaha gives you 2 per part, Kurzweil lets you use as many available effects resources as you want on a single part BUT switching from one effects-instensive sound set to another, while not cutting off, will not be as seamless as on the others, as the differences in the effects can cause glitches in the sound transition.

 

For ease of sound editing, I'd probably rank them Roland, Yamaha, Kurzweil.

 

For arranging patches in order...

 

... the Kurzweil lets you define pages of 10 sounds in Quick Access banks, with the sounds recalled by hard buttons, though the names are displayed on screen. You can name and re-order the pages. Re-ordering sounds within a bank of 10 is trickier. IIRC, it becomes a bit of a puzzle game, where you temporarily move something to an interim location to free up the place where you want to move the sound to. (Though saving a sound in a new location is very easy, taking fewer steps than on others... if you're playing the sound, just hold the button down for the location you want to put it in.)

 

... the Yamaha lets you define pages of 16 sounds in Live Set pages, recalled from the touchscreen. You can name the pages. You can move/copy/paste sound from one location to another, but like the Kurzweil, you may have to free up an interim holding location. But also, moving things around can be facilitated with the purchase of a 3rd-party Mac/PC editor. They also have a set list feature that works with their soundmondo service, I've never tried that. (Kurzweil also has a Mac/PC editor, which is free, but in a quick look, I did not see a facility for using it to re-organize favorites.)

 

... the Roland lets you define Scene Chains that are as long as you want, but you only see 8 of those selectable sounds on the screen at once (you scroll through them). The first 16 can be selected with hard buttons. They all can be selected by tapping on them on the screen or by navigating with increment/decrement. You can name the scene chains, and their contents are more easily editable than on the others, since besides the copy/paste of the Yamaha, there are also delete/insert functions that move everything else accordingly. Putting something into a Scene Chain can initially be more complicated, though, because unlike the others, you can't directly just put any of the board's basic sounds into a chain, you have to put your sounds into one of the 512 scenes first, and then once they are in a scene, you can make them part of a chain. Using your M50 as a point of reference, it's like only being able to assemble set lists from Combis, not Programs, so if you wanted a set list to have an entry that was just a single program, you'd have to create a combi with just that single program first.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for this detailed reply!

 

I would want to put a whole set of sounds in order, preferably up to 200 on some occasions. I've skimmed through the Kurzweil manual and it looks like I would do that in the Multi setting, and set a switch pedal to Multi Increment so I could advance through the list. Do you know if that sounds right? That's how I do it on my M50 in Combi mode, but it only takes 127 user slots.

 

Time to go read the other manuals . . .

[AnotherScott]

55 minutes ago, Marganjou said:

I would want to put a whole set of sounds in order, preferably up to 200 on some occasions. I've skimmed through the Kurzweil manual and it looks like I would do that in the Multi setting, and set a switch pedal to Multi Increment so I could advance through the list. Do you know if that sounds right? That's how I do it on my M50 in Combi mode, but it only takes 127 user slots.

Yes, that would work. I think you could also increment through the Quick Access favorites. I know you can do it on a single page of 10, I think it will go to the next page of 10 when you get to the end, but I'm not certain. The MODX and Fantom-0 provide similar functionality, I believe.

[ABECK]

2 hours ago, Marganjou said:

Thanks for this detailed reply!

 

I would want to put a whole set of sounds in order, preferably up to 200 on some occasions. I've skimmed through the Kurzweil manual and it looks like I would do that in the Multi setting, and set a switch pedal to Multi Increment so I could advance through the list. Do you know if that sounds right? That's how I do it on my M50 in Combi mode, but it only takes 127 user slots.

 

Time to go read the other manuals . . .

What you are describing doesn't necessarily have to be done with Multis.   Quick access banks can store multi's and single programs, which is super handy.  You'd need to setup 20 QA banks with everything in order.  

 

Alternately, you could create multis with a multiple programs in each and toggle from one program to the next in the multi.   You could then arrange several multis in order in a QA bank.  It would take some planning.  Any way you slice it, 200 is def a lot of program changes.  You might want to look into something like mainstage or similar setlist management software for iPads.

[Marganjou]

1 hour ago, ABECK said:

What you are describing doesn't necessarily have to be done with Multis.   Quick access banks can store multi's and single programs, which is super handy.  You'd need to setup 20 QA banks with everything in order.  

 

Alternately, you could create multis with a multiple programs in each and toggle from one program to the next in the multi.   You could then arrange several multis in order in a QA bank.  It would take some planning.  Any way you slice it, 200 is def a lot of program changes.  You might want to look into something like mainstage or similar setlist management software for iPads.

Thanks, I often have splits so I think Multis would probably work better.

 

The life of a theater musician -- sometimes spend more time changing programs than playing. I don't own a Mac and I find setting up a computer to be a hassle (I'll do it if the patches are rented) so I prefer an all-in-one setup.

 

Appreciate the advice!

[K K]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:40 AM, Marganjou said:

 

Thanks for the advice. The Korg Nautilus is probably more than I'd want to spend, and heavier - I have to be able to load in and out by myself using a hard case.

 

The Nautilus is only 3 lbs more than the Roland you are considering. Also, if the Nautilus is identical to the Kronos for its setlist mode, it would offer custom access to 128 times 128 programs/multis and personal comments on screen for each so you can remember anything important. There is also the new Quick Layer and Quick Split functions if you check the Nautilus manual. And since you are used to the M50, the Nautilus interface/workflow would feel kind of familiar, unless of course you want something new which is also just fine or if you dislike the M50 interface/workflow. Again, make sure to take your time and test the machines available around. 

[AnotherScott]

2 minutes ago, K K said:

 

The Nautilus is only 3 lbs more than the Roland you are considering. 

more like 18 lbs more (Fantom-08 vs. Nautilus 88).

[K K]

I was referring to the Roland RD2000 mentioned by the OP, which weights 48 lbs.

[CEB]

15 hours ago, Marganjou said:

Thanks, I often have splits so I think Multis would probably work better.

 

The life of a theater musician -- sometimes spend more time changing programs than playing. I don't own a Mac and I find setting up a computer to be a hassle (I'll do it if the patches are rented) so I prefer an all-in-one setup.

 

Appreciate the advice!

For what it is worth this is where the Korg rules. It’s why I play the Kronos 2-88. Nautilus does the same thing.  There can be 128 Setlists in current storage. Each Setlist can hold hold 128 programs, combis or songs.  But the Korg 88 boards are expensive and heavy. 
 

Your next best alternative is to use any keyboard rig you want based on other factors and run a tablet app. I use MobileSheetsPro which cost $12 for the full version. It manages all my charts which are in Setlist order when you go to the next chart it send program changes to the rig and changes your sounds.   I have no idea how many Setlists the app can hold in memory.  Probably based on hardware memory. It is a lot. 
 

The big advantage with these two options is when you have to constantly make changes to your shows, editing is really easy. Also when you need multiple shows in memory you do not need to juggle your quick access banks or favorites or Yamaha Memory mode or what other limited hardware architecture you are stuck with.   A tablet app is inexpensive. I run mine on a $68 cheap tablet. I recommend you not be as cheap as me and get something better than I did. My tablet has performed great but I always wonder if today will be the day it fails. 

 

I do not use MobileSheetsPro for sound management because I use Kronos Setlist. There are numerous apps you can get.   I have never used SetlistMaker but I’ve heard good things about it.   Set list apps would make a great second thread. 

[CEB]

Just as an FYI … because it is cool. 
 

SetList starts at 19:40.  This shows Kronos but Nautilus does the same thing  

 

 

[Stokely]

I personally don't like the multi vs single architechture on keyboards.  The Montage/Modx "flatten" it out--to some extent, there is a caveat.  As does the Fantom I believe.  I have had lots of problems with single patches behaving differently in multi mode with both my Motif and later two Kurzweils, and finally got tired of dealing with it.  It's mostly the effects but you can also lose mappings, like say the mod wheel changing cutoff.  

That said, there is used deal on a Kronos 2 88 with case that is really tempting...but man, 53 pounds + whatever the case weighs.   I'm also not sure how much I'll like the RH3 action.  There are some great deals on Roland Fantom 8s but that makes the Kronos 88 appealing as far as size and weight!  If I still had my old van with ample space and lower load-in height, it would be more tempting...

The Nautilus checks a lot of boxes but I really dislike how few controls it has.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

The Nautilus checks a lot of boxes but I really dislike how few controls it has.

 

I thought Studiologic's Mixface was a clever design in that, sure, it could work as a standalone control surface, but it was also specifically designed to integrate well with their SL controllers, which lacked many controls of their own.

 

I think it would be interesting for Korg to do something similar. They are well on their way with some of their Nano devices, which you could use with a Nautilus. But I think something that is aesthetically designed to neatly mate with the Nautilus, and pre-programmed with Nautilus-specific mappings (perhaps with an OS update to the Nautilus that makes it "aware" of it, perhaps providing its own graphic editor for the device), could really address the dearth of controls for those who are put off by their absence.