No love for Genos here? (and some personal ramblings)

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, AROIOS said:

 

  This gentleman made both boards sound like lower-end DGX/YPG models. Martin Harris would be shaking his head.

 I had to look up who Martin Harris was. ;-) I posted that video above as an example of the sounds of individual instruments when played on the two boards, but if you want a more elaborate demo of, not just the sounds, but some more of Genos' overall capabilities, here's a Martin Harris demo below.

 

From the perspective of someone who might gig with the board with a full band, all the accompaniment features aren't so relevant... though they can also come in useful as inspiration for composition or as a quick way to generate a useful backing track to a compositional idea, so I wouldn't be quick to dismiss them, either. (In fact, honestly, I'd be more likely to use a board's arranger function than I would be to use a board's sequencer!)

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Coincidentally, some of what's being talked about here also became part of the conversation in another thread, so people following this may also want to look at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/182970-roland-zen-core/#comment-2908310  and a bunch of the posts that follow. 

 

[AROIOS]

19 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

...

From the perspective of someone who might gig with the board with a full band, all the accompaniment features aren't so relevant... though they can also come in useful as inspiration for composition or as a quick way to generate a useful backing track to a compositional idea, so I wouldn't be quick to dismiss them, either. (In fact, honestly, I'd be more likely to use a board's arranger function than I would be to use a board's sequencer!)

 

Nothing against the A C Hamilton guys, I've seen excellent demos from them before. That particular one simply didn't scratch the surface of what both those boards are capable of.
 

And I've loved Yamaha arranger boards since 1992 (still have a PSR-520 and a PSR-S700). They are great tools for learning and practicing styles and arrangements, and great fun to play when we are not in a good band.

With that said, it cringes me to hear the same ole plastic-sounding snare from 20 years ago still prominently featured on a $5000 Genos. It immediately cheapens the mix despite the many fantastic Sweet/SA/SA2 sounds onboard.

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, AROIOS said:

Nothing against the A C Hamilton guys, I've seen excellent demos from them before. That particular one simply didn't scratch the surface of what both those boards are capable of.

I think demonstrating the capabilities of the boards simply wasn't it's intent... it was mostly just a comparison of how some common individual sounds compare.

 

I actually just got my hands on a Genos for the first time. One Genos disappointment for a $6k board is that it is very fussy when it comes to seamless sound switching. There are ways to achieve it, but you have to strategize, it's not like what we've come to expect these days where you can seamlessly transition from most sounds to most others without thinking about it, within some basic rules. Considering Genos came out well over a year after the Montage (the first Yamaha with strong seamless sound switching capabilities), I was surprised to see the issue in the Genos. Though to be fair, I guess, if you use the Genos "as intended" (as an arranger), you'd probably rarely run into this as an issue, since I think you'd potentially only notice it if, mid-song, you wanted to change to a sound that you had not already made part of that song's arrangement, and someone using it as an arranger may be unlikely to do that. 

[Amaryllis]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:31 PM, AnotherScott said:

though they can also come in useful as inspiration for composition or as a quick way to generate a useful backing track to a compositional idea, so I wouldn't be quick to dismiss them, either. (In fact, honestly, I'd be more likely to use a board's arranger function than I would be to use a board's sequencer!)

 

i've never had much interest in arranger keyboards, but i'd honestly love to have one of these at home just for practice and trying out ideas - if only they didn't cost the same as an NS3 or an SKX Pro (just to pick two boards i'd much rather have if i was going to spend that much).  but that makes me wonder if someone couldn't take the "arranger" part of the keyboard and turn it into a computer or tablet app?  i know about BIAB and iReal, but those aren't quite the same thing... and a quick Internet search didn't turn up anything apart from a couple of pretty cheesy-looking iOS apps.

[Anderton]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:17 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

Pretty much - they are loaded with pre-created content in many styles of music that follow your chord changes.  You have real time control over when to jump from one section of the form to another.  Verse Chorus Bridge, etc.  A great tool for solo acts and for singer song writers to bang out demos.  

 

One overlooked application of arranger keyboards is they make great needledrop/library music. In those applications, the music just provides a background to something else (like narration or visuals), so virtuosity is not expected. But when you're asked "hey, can you do something with a bossa nova flavor for a beach scene," you can say yes.

 

They're royalty-free, and don't involve licensing. Sound libraries have gotten a lot less expensive since they've gone to a subscription or download model, but Casio's most expensive portable arranger keyboard is $500, which makes it competitive if you use it for a few years. And you get a keyboard, too

[pjd]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:10 PM, GovernorSilver said:

 

Great work with the Motif style collection!  At first I was confused because left hard chord shapes seemed to be only triggering bass lines, then I realized there was e-piano comping part whose level was set very low.  I also found that pressing the Multi-Pad buttons added rhythm guitar parts.  Just like in real life, the damn guitar is louder than the comping keyboard.  😜  😉  Seriously, though, great work.

 

I also enjoyed the DJXII collection.  Despite my PSR-SX600 being a 2020 model and purchased in new condition, the DJXII styles made my arranger sound gritty and vintage - which I dig.  It has at least one jungle/d'n'b style which is not represented at al in my SX600.

 

 

Thanks for the kind words! 

 

Yamaha get the credit for the sparse styles since the source MOX performances are sparse. The playing pro's on the PSR Forum typically turn off the extra instrumentation in the Factory styles. "Just give me a grooving bass and drum, and I'll take care of everything else." As to levels, I still need to get smarter about style levels. Yamaha must have some kind of an in-house style development standard -- wish I could see it. 😏

 

Glad to hear that the DJX collection is useful. I'm trying for a grittier sound in general. Factory styles are too polite. I'm currently in a relationship with the SMALL STEREO DIST effect (compression plus distortion plus speaker sim) that seems to knock the snot out of anything put through it. 😀

 

Those DJX-II patterns are a major bear to convert. Otherwise, I might have knocked out more EDM, 'specially d'n'b for which I am fond.

 

The SX600 is absolutely the best mid-ranger to bear a "6" in the model number. Great machine!

 

All the best -- pj

 

[AnotherScott]

17 minutes ago, Amaryllis said:

 

i've never had much interest in arranger keyboards, but i'd honestly love to have one of these at home just for practice and trying out ideas - if only they didn't cost the same as an NS3 or an SKX Pro (just to pick two boards i'd much rather have if i was going to spend that much).  but that makes me wonder if someone couldn't take the "arranger" part of the keyboard and turn it into a computer or tablet app?  i know about BIAB and iReal, but those aren't quite the same thing... and a quick Internet search didn't turn up anything apart from a couple of pretty cheesy-looking iOS apps.

Biggles posted a list of possibilities at https://www.keyboardforums.com/threads/create-styles.33574/ but I'd also point out two things...

 

... part of what gives arrangers their easy flexibility is the dedicated, well-placed controls for real-time manipulations, something you'd be compromising on with any kind of external software approach

 

... you don't need to spend anything like Genos/NS3/SKx Pro money to get decent arranger functionality. There are plenty of lower-priced models. In the midrange, you've got the Korg PA700/PA1000, Yamaha PSR-SX700/900. And even lower end models can be pretty impressive and may get the job done, like Yamaha PSR-EW425 or Korg i3.

[SamuelBLupowitz]

On 8/3/2022 at 6:49 PM, David Bryce said:

I always preferred Pat’s to Geno’s.

 

Sorry….I’m a Philly boy.  Couldn’t resist… 

 

dB

 

 

Thanks, dB... I came to this thread with the same thing in mind. 🤣

[GovernorSilver]

1 hour ago, Amaryllis said:

 

i've never had much interest in arranger keyboards, but i'd honestly love to have one of these at home just for practice and trying out ideas - if only they didn't cost the same as an NS3 or an SKX Pro (just to pick two boards i'd much rather have if i was going to spend that much).  but that makes me wonder if someone couldn't take the "arranger" part of the keyboard and turn it into a computer or tablet app?  i know about BIAB and iReal, but those aren't quite the same thing... and a quick Internet search didn't turn up anything apart from a couple of pretty cheesy-looking iOS apps.

 

My arranger keyboard did not cost anywhere close to the price of a Hammond SKX Pro ($4000 says Google) or Nord Stage 3 ($4200).    

 

Yamaha PSR-E473 and Casio CTS-500 both cost under $400 - for example.   I was thinking of going for the PSR-E473, before I decided to treat myself to the PSR-SX600's bells and whistles.

 

As you might imagine, the Genos has a boatload of specs and features, commensurate with a price about 15 times higher than that of the PSR-E473.   

 

The main draw of an arranger keyboard is it lets you decide on the fly whether or not to start your song with an intro, when to switch your auto-accompaniment from the verse to chorus or bridge part of your song, when to insert a fill, and when to finish your song with an outro.  These operations are all done with a quick button press - so you'll see buttons labeled Intro, Variation, Fill, etc.  

 

Another typical feature of an arranger keyboard is chord recognition, so that the auto-accompaniment will play something in the desired harmony - the bass, rhythm guitar, comping piano, etc. are all on the same page.  This lets you decide on the fly if you want to, say, play a cover tune in a more faithful arrangement, or throw in some substitutions to spice it up... and your virtual bassist, rhythm guitarist, etc. will all play along.   It's this feature that I don't see being supported much, if at all, in IOS or computer apps.

 

The pricier models will give your more options - like more than one type of intro, more song sections, etc. - as well as options for setting up chord recognition, more music styles, better quality sounds,  more Super Articulation (or Korg equivalent) sounds.  They're also more likely to have an onboard style editor.

 

 

 

 

[Jose EB5AGV]

Well, to give some kind of closure to this topic, I will relate my comeback to Genos and what I have found after about two years without using it... I expected that my playing improvement would translate to a more enjoyable playing experience with the arranger. Not so 😢. At least, not as much as I would have liked. My playing is still too lacking to sound nice using an arranger. Yes, I have got better at playing more chords and keeping on time, that helps. But my way to play, mostly chords on left hand and basically one note melody on right hand, is still too basic to produce anything which seems not a cheesy sounding fake thing, with little interest ☹️

 

So, well, it has been a humbling experience. I am too far from being a decent player and the arranger, instead of hidding it, makes it more evident 😞

 

So it seems the Genos is still far from my reach. I resist the inner voice which tells me to sell it, just because it would mean I give up. And not, it is not what I want to do. But I need to do some serious thinking about how to continue my musical trip. I am attending weekly piano classes (groupal) and also a weekly rehearsal with the band. And of course I play daily, lately mostly pop/rock, both solo and also just accompaniment (as I play in the band; chords, some riffs, some intros). But I need to work in parallel to improve my playing toolbox. Now I need to find out how! 🤔

 

Thank you all for being there!

 

Jose

[Jose EB5AGV]

Silly me... After writing my last message, which has made me think a bit out of the box, I have just solved part of my arranger playing problems, using AI Full Keyboard fingering. That way I can play as I do usually on the piano and the accompaniment follows me without any change on how I play... That, and muting part of the Style voices (as Chord ones) makes it sound lots better 😅

 

RTFM moment, I guess 🤭

 

All in all, my playing still sucks, if just a bit less!

 

Jose