Connecting and monitoring through in-ears vocals and keyboards without breaking the bank

[GianfrixMG]

Hi everyone!

I am a singer in a band and I am planning to occasionally play some keyboards and trigger samples with a MIDI pedal.

 

For vocal effects I'm currently using a custom made fx processor, based on a Raspberry Pi, which outputs on a 1/4 inch stereo jack at a line level. Samples would mainly be played from this box. As for keyboards, depending on the situation and on-stage space, I may either use that same fx processor or my MODX7. I also have a stereo wireless in-ear monitor I want to use to hear my voice and my keyboard parts with the rest of the band underneath. The transmitter connects via a single TRS stereo 1/4 inch jack.

 

EDIT: At least for now I'm planning to play keyboards only on instrumentals, while I could trigger samples in any song.

 

In order to connect everything I was planning to use a small mixer I could keep near me on stage (this position also eases the work on the wireless transmitter). On that mixer I would connect as inputs my Raspberry Pi, optionally my keyboard and a monitor mix coming from the FOH mixer. In order not to generate feedback due to this last input, I think I would need a mixer with an aux send in order to create a submix (vocals + keys + monitor) only for myself, while sending only vocals and keys through the main outs (balanced if possible). The aux send should thus be pre-level and not post-level.

 

Without spending too much (we're not a professional band right now :D) I was thinking about getting a Mackie Mix8. The only problem I see is that keyboards and vocals would be sent on the same stereo channel, thus limiting some mixing freedom to the FOH sound man. The only way I could solve this problem is by using two separate mono outputs, but that would be a problem for some keyboard sounds (e.g. organs /w Leslie) that could sound bad in mono.

 

Do you have any other solutions?

 

Thank you in advance!

 

 

[kaptainkeys]

If you want something with a little more routing capabilities, look at a digital mixer.  Something like a Zoom L-8 would give you more than enough inputs but would also give you aux sends (in the case of the L-8, three unbalanced headphone outputs, meaning that you would have to use a DI for each of those.  All you would do is only put the faders up on the channels you want going to the main out, on the others, just set the gain and the send level to the aux output.

[stoken6]

Or use a mic splitter: one side of the split goes to FOH, one to your personal mixer.

[JamPro]

I have a similar problem: In a band, I play keys, I sing, and I want to hear the band, their singing, keys, and my voice in my monitor.  And I want to be able to balance levels of all these things in my monitor. 

 

In practice, I send keys and mic output to the band mixer, and get one send from the band mixer to my monitor.  For my monitor mix, I can balance the levels of my keys, my mic, others' mics, and other instruments at the band mixer.  This requires some careful mixing, and is difficult to do once the show starts (a challenge made worse because the band never spends more than 5 mins at "sound check", if they bother to do one at all).  So this for me is a sub-optimal solution - but still seems better than anything else I might do.

 

I could get a keyboard mixer to balance levels from where I am sitting during a show, but this would require receiving many different signals from the band mixer.  It would require a bigger (more expensive) keyboard mixer with lots of channels and aux outputs, and would require more set-up and break-down time.  This is what would be needed if I wanted to be able to mix my monitor sound on the fly from my stage position.

 

It's like the joke where you get to choose only two from "good", "easy", and "inexpensive".  So I sacrifice my ability to immediately control my mix, for faster set-up and breakdown, and to minimize what I have to spend money on, keep working, and schlep to gigs.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Stokely]

Hmm, not sure I understand the situation.  For every gig I've done (somewhere under 1000) I've gotten instruments including vocals back from FOH in a monitor mix.  Sometimes I have used a setup that allows me to to monitor keys prior to sending them to FOH, but not vocals or anything else.  In such a case, the keys get mixed with a keys-less monitor send from FOH.   When my band runs sound I just have everything keys coming back from FOH into my Behringer p16m monitor mixer (which connects to our behringer main mixer).  Almost every gig we do these days (sound company or us) they use a digital mixer and most of them give the band members the ability to change their own mix via a phone or tablet app.  You connect to the wifi of their mixer with the appropriate app (I have several just in case) and bam.

If I couldn't control my own mix I'd be hesitant to use my in-ears.  Those might be the gigs where I go back to a wedge and maybe even an "amp" (powered speaker) for my keys.  I haven't done it in a couple years now.

What I've seen more (and "bigger") bands doing is have their own monitor mixer with a splitter (or several).  The band plugs into the splitter, then that goes 1) to the band's mixer, which then is used for monitor sends and 2) on to the main FOH mixer.    We haven't quite made that jump yet, since every sound company gig we do they give us access to their mixer via the app, so that's easy enough.   The advantage of course is that the band has complete control over their monitor mix, and FOH only has to worry about the mix out front.

[DovJ]

The best approach I’ve seen (meaning easy for the FOH mixer and delivering the most useful sound to the players) is to use a system that permits the musicians to mix their own in-ear mix. 

 

It costs more, but a digital mixer like the Behringer XR18 with their PowerPlay personal mixer system makes this relatively easy, albeit not so cheaply. Aviom makes an even more expensive competitor, which will work with most mixers.

 

The next level down would be a keyboard sub-mixer where you get an FOH monitor mix, which you combine with your own signal as you desire.

[cphollis]

Sounds simple, but not always.  The hard part is that there are two mixes going on, (1) the mix that FOH gets from your keys, vocals, samples, and (2) the mix you get in your ears of that combo along with what everyone else is doing.

 

Digital mixers (like the aforementioned XR18) are good at this, but not cheap.  All of your generated signals can be presented to FOH, yet you'll be able to customize the band mix in your ears without affecting what's being sent.  You create mix buses (auxes) and send off appropriately.  This also can get you some dandy FX processing as well for your vocals.

 

The other route means two not-inexpensive analog mixers (with knobs) and enough separate auxes to do what you need.  Auxes are expensive here, so at some point it becomes cheaper to do the digital mixer route.  The XR18 has 6 independent auxes, for example.  QSC has the very nice TouchMix, and there's the Zoom stuff which I have not tried.

 

Now that I have been using a digital mixer as my "keyboard amp" for a while, I wish I had started doing this years ago, as I now have much more control of both what I present to FOH, as well as what I hear in my ears.

[GianfrixMG]

Thank you for all the answers!

 

At the end I would like something very simple I can use both at rehearsals and live. At reharsals I could feed one of the aux outputs of the main mixer to mine and I think I could do that too on stage.

 

I saw that many cheap mixers have this kind of routing:

 

Hypotetically I could input the FOH monitor mix to the tape inputs and send them only to the headphone output. But practically could that blow the mixer out? I read that the tape input accepts line level inputs, so as far as I have the correct adapter I should be able to use it.

[Stokely]

My main comment would be:  this sounds like a whole-band issue that needs a whole-band solution.  Or at least that's the way I've always looked at monitoring.  

That said, our bass player plays in several bands so he has worked out his no-amp in-ears solution so that it doesn't matter which band, mixer or sound company he uses.  As long as they can send him an unpowered monitor feed he is good.    He's also using a Rolls to accomplish this, mixing his direct bass sound in with the FOH monitor mix.

[GianfrixMG]

13 minutes ago, Stokely said:

My main comment would be:  this sounds like a whole-band issue that needs a whole-band solution.  Or at least that's the way I've always looked at monitoring.  

That said, our bass player plays in several bands so he has worked out his no-amp in-ears solution so that it doesn't matter which band, mixer or sound company he uses.  As long as they can send him an unpowered monitor feed he is good.    He's also using a Rolls to accomplish this, mixing his direct bass sound in with the FOH monitor mix.

The "we shouldn't mess with the volumes in the middle of the rehearsal" problem has to be tackled, but even if I could hear myself well through the PA, I prefer listening to my vocals clearly while singing. I just want a simple solution I may be able to use on stage.

[stoken6]

50 minutes ago, Stokely said:

That said, our bass player plays in several bands so he has worked out his no-amp in-ears solution so that it doesn't matter which band, mixer or sound company he uses.  As long as they can send him an unpowered monitor feed he is good.    He's also using a Rolls to accomplish this, mixing his direct bass sound in with the FOH monitor mix.

This is exactly what I do. "Can you give me a send off the desk?" / "Either, XLR or jack" and I'm good. 
 

@GianfrixMG If you want a solution that's independent of the band: I would potentially plug the vocal processor into the aux input on the MODX. Then get a Rolls PM351, plug the MODX into the instrument input, your vocal mic into the mic input, and a send from the FOH desk into the monitor input. The nice thing about the PM351 is you get "thru" outputs for mic and instrument that you can send onto the desk and PA. You'll have to balance the MODX and the FX processor yourself, as FOH will get a combination of the two.

 

But that's the best solution I can think of, other than the band investing in a FOH mixer with a monitor send they can dedicate to you.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[GianfrixMG]

9 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

@GianfrixMG If you want a solution that's independent of the band: I would potentially plug the vocal processor into the aux input on the MODX. Then get a Rolls PM351, plug the MODX into the instrument input, your vocal mic into the mic input, and a send from the FOH desk into the monitor input. The nice thing about the PM351 is you get "thru" outputs for mic and instrument that you can send onto the desk and PA. You'll have to balance the MODX and the FX processor yourself, as FOH will get a combination of the two.

 

But that's the best solution I can think of, other than the band investing in a FOH mixer with a monitor send they can dedicate to you.

 

Cheers, Mike.

I would like not to depend on the MODX, as I'm not always using it and setting everything up takes a lot of time. For this reason I was researching on how to perform the few parts I do on my custom processor. Problem is that I would have to balance the sound myself, considering that I would also have to balance it with the other keyboard player in the band. That could easily get messy. The only other solution would be going mono.

 

The PM351 sounds very nice actually! I don't know though if I would be able to successfully connect a line signal to the mic input as it seems like the inputs don't have input gain settings.

[stoken6]

19 minutes ago, GianfrixMG said:

I would like not to depend on the MODX, as I'm not always using it and setting everything up takes a lot of time. For this reason I was researching on how to perform the few parts I do on my custom processor. Problem is that I would have to balance the sound myself, considering that I would also have to balance it with the other keyboard player in the band. That could easily get messy. The only other solution would be going mono.

 

The PM351 sounds very nice actually! I don't know though if I would be able to successfully connect a line signal to the mic input as it seems like the inputs don't have input gain settings.

DI Box? Or connect a line signal to the instrument input.

 

Cheers, Mike.