Feng Shui?

[Dave Horne]

You give off energy. You have energy. That is measurable. There are dozens of various kinds of measurable radiation streaming through your house. There is sunlight. There is air. There is electricity. There are radio waves. There are cosmic radiation. Many are measurable. And that's only the stuff we understand.

Perhaps someone could make a list of the energy given off (by our species) and the device(s) needed for its measurement. I am being serious. Some people throw the word energy around, but I am going to be a pain in the ass and ask for specifics.

 

Also, could someone make a list of the energy we do not understand. Perhaps we could leave that out of the discussion. (I wish my daughter would join in - she graduated first in her class. She was 'pre-med' and has a degree in microbiology. She got here smarts from her mother, my first wife.)

 

I'm not sure but I think the radiation given off by my mobile phone is clouding my reasoning ability ... or maybe it's just indigestion.

[Dave Horne]

This statement indicates that you subscribe to a fundamental flaw of those who "believe in science": that if something is not measurable, it does not exist.

I believe I said that it makes it 'difficult to discuss it intelligently'. The difference between science and the ... non-science types, science will try to define what it is that is beyond its measurement. If it can not be measured directly, it will be measured indirectly. With the non-scientific types, you accept the existence of 'something' on faith or the 'fact' that is has existed for hundreds of years (though still not measurable).

 

It really is difficult to have a discussion when the topic in question in beyond measurement ... an invisible six foot rabbit named Harvey comes to mind. Before x-rays (radiation, in general) could be measured, its effects were noted.

[Lee Flier]

Science does a great job of describing what it purports to describe, and in general I'm a great believer in using the principles of science and logic to live my life. If you stake your life on something unverifiable, you will probably come out on the losing end.

 

However, a great many of the experiences we have in life are subjective. They aren't meant to be repeatable and verifiable, they're unique to each individual, but they form a huge part of the way we experience life and are really the driving force that makes life worth living. Emotions, will, dreams, creative inspiration - none of these can be measured scientifically but their importance to our lives can't be overestimated.

 

Although subjective experience can't be "measured," it HAS been observed through the ages that these experiences tend to follow certain patterns in our psyches - that is, our psyches seem to have a need to organize them into certain types of patterns. So, a lot of rituals and mystical arts are actually ways of codifying these patterns and taking advantage of them, even exercising a certain degree of control over them. Jung makes this point in his psychology very well - he made extensive study of alchemy, the I Ching, and various other ancient mystical arts, not so much to prove or disprove that they are literally and measurably true, but to prove their value to the psyche and their ability to help us become more attuned to our inner workings and patterns. Definitely, getting more of a handle on your interior self and its patterns does result in a measurable improvement in your life.

 

The "energy" that flows through your home as described in Feng Shui need only be an emotional energy, not a literal physical energy. It relates to your subjective experience of the space, and there are definite unconscious associations that we make with the way spaces are laid out. How it can hurt anybody to study this is beyond me - if it makes you feel better to lay out your house or workplace according to established "good" patterns, then what's the big deal? I really don't give a rat's ass whether something makes me feel more relaxed, inspired or whatever because of some un-measurable physical energy or just because the ritual of being more aware of my space has made my mind more focused and made me be more focused on taking care of myself. If it produces a good result, then it's worth doing. If you find yourself obsessing over whether you're doing something "wrong" according to Feng Shui, astrology or whatever and think everything bad that happens to you is a result of that, then I think you've missed the point. These are tools for reaching places in the psyche that logic doesn't go, not demons that condemn you to some predetermined fate if you don't follow them to the letter. I say, either use them to your benefit or let go of them, and for me personally, some of this stuff has been of benefit.

 

If you're of a more literal bent, try reading architect Christopher Alexander's book "A Pattern Language." It's a fascinating look at how people through the ages have designed their living and working spaces according to certain common patterns that are emotionally as well as functionally beneficial. There's nothing mystical about it, but you will find a certain amount of common ground between it and Feng Shui. Fascinating stuff that I think would help anybody who's building a house, or a studio , or whatever.

[robmix]

Exactly Lee. Would I pass on buying a house because it faced the wrong direction - No. Would I put up a crystal and wait for work to start piling in - No. But when in doubt about decorating or workflow why not consult an art that's been around for a long time that seems to make many people feel good about themselves and their home/workspace. Things are going right for you - take a look around, see if there's anything obvious that's getting in your way. Regarding scientific validity - remember scientists used to believe the world was flat. Science and what we hold as truth changes constantly.

[Tedster]

I'll have the Feng Shui, and an order of General Tsao's chicken, please...

[Jimbroni]

Perhaps someone could make a list of the energy given off (by our species) and the device(s) needed for its measurement. I am being serious. Some people throw the word energy around, but I am going to be a pain in the ass and ask for specifics.

One specific energy form, which has recently been proven to behave in concordance with our emotions.

Electromagnetic radiation. Currently, engineers at MIT are developing computers which can sense you're electromagnetic field "aura" and determine an appropriate response. Today's technology would have baffled someone from just 100 years ago, to the point where they would have said thats "magic", "Metaphysical", whatever. There is no such thing as magic, but there are plenty of magical things we don't understand that exist in this world. 30 years ago most people called accupuncture a mystical art, but now is becoming more accepted into modern medicine, because we are starting to understand it, instead of just accepting it.

[whitefang]

Originally posted by Super 8:

When people ask me; "So, what do you do for a living", I always tell them I'm a Feng Shui Consultant.

That usually stops the line of questioning dead in it's tracks.

 

Yup! Feng Shui has always worked for me!

I'll try that! For years now, I've depended on telling people I found Jesus to get them to leave me the fuck alone!

 

I don't know a thing about Feng Shui. I've always arranged rooms according to where the doors, windows and walls were, to make the furnishings less obstructive. And always painted them colors that were pleasing to my eyes and sensibilities. Is that Feng Shui?

 

I always thought of it as common sense.

 

Whitefang

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

Perhaps someone could make a list of the energy given off (by our species) and the device(s) needed for its measurement. I am being serious. Some people throw the word energy around, but I am going to be a pain in the ass and ask for specifics.

One specific energy form, which has recently been proven to behave in concordance with our emotions.

Electromagnetic radiation. Currently, engineers at MIT are developing computers which can sense you're electromagnetic field "aura" and determine an appropriate response. Today's technology would have baffled someone from just 100 years ago, to the point where they would have said thats "magic", "Metaphysical", whatever. There is no such thing as magic, but there are plenty of magical things we don't understand that exist in this world. 30 years ago most people called accupuncture a mystical art, but now is becoming more accepted into modern medicine, because we are starting to understand it, instead of just accepting it.

Would it be too much to ask for a link ... or the particular issue of Nature where this is published ... or a copy of the abstract?

[Dave Horne]

accupuncture a mystical art, but now is becoming more accepted into modern medicine,

There have been many studies and acupuncture has already been disproved.

 

Originally there were 365 'accu points' in our body - one for each day of the year - how scientific. There are now many, many more ... go figure. Acupuncture works because placebos work; that, plus the added possibility that our bodies release a natural pain killer in the process.

 

The NIH is conducting (and has conducted) many studies.

 

It's the underlying 'science' that causes many to scratch their heads.

[Jimbroni]

Would it be too much to ask for a link ... or the particular issue of Nature where this is published ... or a copy of the abstract?

I don't know of link. But I read about it in this book. visions

 

Michio Kaku the author is one most respected and renowned physicists in the worl today. He also a very insightful author. Though visions isn't that great of a book its a little too text book in its style.

 

just found a link to this PDF from MIT

EF/HCI

 

Accupuncture has been disproved, by whom? As far as I know accupunture has been proven to release and trigger endorphines, which can heal your body. The same thing alot of modern drugs do.

[Angelo Clematide]

Feng Shui means wind (Feng) and water (Shui)

 

so anybody out there who thinks that WIND/WATER does not exist?

[Dave Horne]

Accupuncture has been disproved, by whom?

It's the underlying 'science' that is difficult to prove. The 'energy' pathways through the body - the 2,000 points or meridens.

 

Sticking a needle in a person releases a natural pain killer. So? It doesn't cure anything, it just covers up the pain. Add a little one on one with someone who is really listening to you and I guarantee it is a postive experience. The path of energy through the body - a nerologist would disagee with the map an acupuncturist has on his wall.

 

It works the way a placebo works, plus the added benefit of a natural pain killer. There's nothing magical about that.

 

The harm - someone with a serious illness is 'treated' by an acupuncturist and the real disease continues its merry way. Visiting these alternative 'physicians' may prevent someone from getting help that could save their life.

[Jimbroni]

There's nothing magical about that.

I agree its not magic. Thats why phD's, MD's and major universities are now offering real scientific courses on the subject. I say again its not magic its real. Is it the glorified hollywood, kung fu master crap that is shown is the movies? No way. But as you say it is useful the release of endorphines and pain killers, as well as certain mental conditions like addiction.

It cured my smoking problem, not on its own but it helped by triggering a natural high in my body that lasted like four days. I was 2 to 3 pack a day smoker and tried to quit many times, acupuncture worked for me. Was it a placebo? Maybe but I don't care, cause I no longer spend 8 to 12 dollars a day killing myself.

Do a search "science of acupuncture". fMRI's have shown that energy flows and brain activity changes when acupoints are touched. You can call it placebo all day you want that doesn't change the fact that it works. By way placebo is a viable medical treatment that has been used for centuries Why does it work? Its called the mind body link. If you don't believe in the mind body link then chop your head off. Can the mind cure everything? Not yet, but maybe someday it will.

 

Sorry everyone my intent wasn't to hijack this thread. Anybody want to talk about feng shui?

[coyote]

Or it just might address the actual disease, instead of alleviating the symptom (which is the focus of most Western medicine).

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Visiting these alternative 'physicians' may prevent someone from getting help that could save their life.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

The harm - someone with a serious illness is 'treated' by an acupuncturist and the real disease continues its merry way. Visiting these alternative 'physicians' may prevent someone from getting help that could save their life.

Most people don't go to see an acupuncturist in lieu of an MD. They go when the MD doesn't help them.

 

Case in point: my father (an avowed skeptic) was plagued with back problems for years after an injury. He had various conventional treatments none of which helped, and doctors were recommending surgery which would have a long recovery time and was still not really guaranteed to help.

 

A friend of his at work recommended he try acupuncture (which was REALLY a "fringe" thing at the time in this country - this was in the early 1970's). My dad had extreme doubts but figured at that point he had nothing to lose. So, he went to an acupuncturist for, if I recall right, six weeks. The pain in his back stopped and has not returned since.

 

Again, if you turn your back on science completely it is likely to get you into trouble. But there is nothing at all wrong with having an open mind provided your feet are on the ground, and exploring ideas that aren't entirely backed up by science doesn't automatically turn you into some superstitious wacko.

[M Peasley]

Again, if you turn your back on science completely it is likely to get you into trouble. But there is nothing at all wrong with having an open mind provided your feet are on the ground, and exploring ideas that aren't entirely backed up by science doesn't automatically turn you into some superstitious wacko.

Five gold stars and a gummy-bear for Lee for WELL-SAID remarks!

 

M Peasley

[I I mjrn]

Ken 11 Shadows slightly (but only slightly, no offense taken) skewed my commentary earlier &, reading comments by others since, I hop in to offer that there are things beyond the ken of science at any given period but there are also many who try to tweak ideas to their own profit & that is where mistakes happen.

 

If you take a simple, general principle & add all sorts of overly-specific, unalterable & sometimes mystical dressing to it it will appeal to many who seek a definite layout for their lives but it is not the same as the original idea. Further it all too frequently becomes a tool for taking advantage of the less discriminative thinkers.

[KenElevenShadows]

We're on to acupuncture now?

 

One more time...acupuncture is not just something to kill pain. It rejuvenates chi, or the body's energy, in particular areas. It increases blood flow to afflicted areas. Even a grade school kid can tell you that it is essential for blood to get to an afflicted area to bring nutrients and rejuvenating properties so that the body can heal. If an area does not receive enough blood flow, bad shit happens. Right? Isn't this obvious? There are many things that acupuncture does besides reducing pain.

 

And actually, science has been busily mapping the meridian lines that acupuncturists have used for over 3500 years. There's nothing mystical or weird about this at all.

 

Acupuncture is holistic and uses the body to help rejuvenate itself. Although often effective on its own, it is particularly effective when used with other kinds of medical/therapeutic approaches (as is the case with just about all medical approaches!!!!).

[coyote]

A few times the word magic has been used in this thread.

 

Any illusionist will tell you that what is magic to some beholders is merely technology to practitioners.

 

One other thing: Complete 'understanding' of a system is not required in order for the end results of that system to be knowable. The person driving that car next to you doesn't need to know how to measure the BHP or torque of an engine (or indeed even know the terms) to drive the car, nor to intelligently say "this car feels more powerful than my last one".

[Dave Horne]

It rejuvenates chi, or the body's energy, in particular areas.

My daughter has her degree in microbiology (and graduated first in her class, I proudly add); interestingly enough, she has never studied this force during her four years. She can identify just about everything in the human body, but I guess she must have missed the day where chi was identified, measured, and discussed.

 

Perhaps you could point us to a medical text book where this is discussed in full. Perhaps there's link at the NIH re this? If this has been around for thousands of years, there must be a way to actually identify it or measure it. (silly me, being a pain again.)

 

I'm sure I'm just being a little cranky as my vital forces are out of alignment - I didn't sleep last night in the North - South configuration and the pyramid over my bed is out for repairs. The crystal wind chime by my window is also out of alignment as I left it in the rain during a lunar eclipse and the dream catcher I normally use was recalled by the manufacturer (I kept having dreams about nuns on roller skates). What's a person to do? How can I align my vital forces and get back in balance?

[Jimbroni]

I'm sure I'm just being a little cranky as my vital forces are out of alignment - I didn't sleep last night in the North - South configuration and the pyramid over my bed is out for repairs. The crystal wind chime by my window is also out of alignment as I left it in the rain during a lunar eclipse and the dream catcher I normally use was recalled by the manufacturer (I kept having dreams about nuns on roller skates). What's a person to do? How can I align my vital forces and get back in balance?

hmmm. Thats the problem with all this generally its the drugged out new age wannabe's who are selling crystals and mirrors and dream catchers. They are a major discredit to alot viable scientific fields that happen to be on fringe.

 

Congrats to you and you're daughter you must be very proud.

The problem is most biologists do not study abstract concepts. They spend most of their time characterizing and classifying things that are known to exist in nature. Studying energy does not fall into that category, yet. Though this is changing as there has been a migration of physicists moving to biology field because of the use of quantum physics in DNA analysis. If you want a scientific study of the unknown elements of the universe you have to talk to physicist not a drugged out new age hippy.

 

Like I said do a search and you'll find a ton universities studying this phenomenon.

[coyote]

Dave, I have a question for you. Perhaps you could consult with your daughter, and come back with an answer....

 

One moment, an organism is alive. The next instant, it's dead. In that instant its chemistry has not changed, nor its structure. It is, for all physical, chemical, and biological purposes, identical to what it was a nanosecond earlier. Yet suddenly it's no longer alive.

 

What measurable quantity has changed? And if none has changed, why is it not still alive? What has wrought such a drastic change in state? What was there in that organism a nanosecond ago that is no longer there?

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

It rejuvenates chi, or the body's energy, in particular areas.

My daughter has her degree in microbiology (and graduated first in her class, I proudly add); interestingly enough, she has never studied this force during her four years. She can identify just about everything in the human body, but I guess she must have missed the day where chi was identified, measured, and discussed.

[KenElevenShadows]

Chi is life energy. If you don't believe your body has this, then I don't know what to tell you. In either case, why don't you check with your daughter as far as everything else that I mentioned in the post instead of picking the one thing out that you can't comprehend?

 

Blood = rejuvenation, oxygen, nutrients. Constriction of muscles and other parts = less blood.

 

Ergo, increasing blood flow to the afflicted area, one of the main things that acupuncture does, is extremely beneficial to the body.

 

If you can't understand this, then i don't know what to tell you - just keep going to your HMO and hope for the best!

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by coyote:

...

One moment, an organism is alive. The next instant, it's dead. In that instant its chemistry has not changed, nor its structure. It is, for all physical, chemical, and biological purposes, identical to what it was a nanosecond earlier. Yet suddenly it's no longer alive.

 

What measurable quantity has changed? ...

They say we weigh 21 grams less after we die.

[Jimbroni]

They say we weigh 21 grams less after we die.

Did you see that movie? Great flick.

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by Jimbroni:

They say we weigh 21 grams less after we die.

Did you see that movie? Great flick.

Depressing as f***.

[Dave Horne]

Originally posted by coyote:

Dave, I have a question for you. Perhaps you could consult with your daughter, and come back with an answer....

 

One moment, an organism is alive. The next instant, it's dead. In that instant its chemistry has not changed, nor its structure. It is, for all physical, chemical, and biological purposes, identical to what it was a nanosecond earlier. Yet suddenly it's no longer alive.

 

What measurable quantity has changed? And if none has changed, why is it not still alive? What has wrought such a drastic change in state? What was there in that organism a nanosecond ago that is no longer there?

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

It rejuvenates chi, or the body's energy, in particular areas.

My daughter has her degree in microbiology (and graduated first in her class, I proudly add); interestingly enough, she has never studied this force during her four years. She can identify just about everything in the human body, but I guess she must have missed the day where chi was identified, measured, and discussed.

I'll give her a call and discuss this with her. We have millions (I'm guessing) of cells that die every day and that are replaced. I personally don't know how the chemical process works with the various kinds of cells in our body, but I would guess that's it is a process - it's not alive one minute and dead the next, I'm sure it's a process of somewhat gradual decay and at some point it simply dies. We seem to make much of that it seems, but then most of us do not study microbiology - I will speak with her (and I am proud).

 

If you've ever watched anyone get sick and die, you know it is a process. The person who is only alive one second and dead the next is the result of an accident - for the rest, it is a gradual process of decay. I personally have been going gradually down hill since I was 28 or so and fortunately it is a gradual process.

[Dave Horne]

Chi is life energy. If you don't believe your body has this, then I don't know what to tell you. In either case, why don't you check with your daughter as far as everything else that I mentioned in the post instead of picking the one thing out that you can't comprehend?

I thought this general concept was already covered - the burden of proof lies with the person who states that something exists. You mention this chi \ life energy - perhaps you should provide the proof that it exists, that it can be measured, that it can be studied. The 'comprehension' is not my problem - you state that something exists, the burden of proof lies with you.

 

Science has a much harder time with proofs - papers get submitted, there's a peer review process, things get published, the material get examined and if it stands up, you accept it as true until something else replaces it. The non-scientific community has it much easier - they simple state that something exists and that's that - no peer review, no nothing. I will wait until Nature publishes an article about chi and then offer my thoughts - until then, my opinion has no real, measurable worth. If you want to discuss how to improvise or discuss the construction of augmented 6th chords, that's a different story.

[Dave Horne]

I called and spoke with my daughter last night and she went on for a solid five minutes explaining all of this using words I did not know and defining the simplest of concepts in depth (using more words I didn't know).

 

She said she would not waste her time writing here and suggested that musicians should stick to music and let biologists stick to biology.

 

After speaking with her, music seems so much simplier than her field of study. The basics in her field are so much more involved than understanding how a handful of diatonic chords work with each other. See ya.

[coyote]

Hate to say this, but that's a cop-out on her part. Some of us have familiarity with microbiology; for her to dismiss us as a bunch of idiotic musicians is annoying at best.

 

Any 'expert' that cannot explain their general conceptual framework in a way that laypersons can understand needs to rethink his/her framework.... IMO she copped-out on that question because she doesn't have the answer. 'Experts' will come up with any excuse to not answer when they don't know, besides admitting they don't know. One of those non-answer techniques is condescension: "Oh, you wouldn't understand so I won't bother explaining".

 

Originally posted by Dave Horne:

She said she would not waste her time writing here and suggested that musicians should stick to music and let biologists stick to biology.

Death is indeed a process. But at any level, from single-celled organisms up to the most complex, there is a moment when the whole organism is alive and an instant later it is not - regardless of how long or short the overall death process might be. And it does not make substantial chemical or physical changes in that instant. Yet something changes in that instant, an ultimate and irreversible change of state.

WHAT IS IT????