MOXF8 vs MODX7/8 for an hobbyist

[GianfrixMG]

Hello everyone!

This is kinda the same general decision I was facing in my previous topic, but the topic isn't valid anymore, as I sold my NC2 many months ago

 

For a TLDR, my requirements are the following:

- Price under 1000 (if possible)

- Audio over USB

- 76 keys minimum

- Good sound editing capabilities

- Expandability to load custom multisamples or one-shot samples

 

After a long search the finalists are the MOXF8, the MODX7 and the MODX8. The main problem is that I can't make up my mind on where to put my priorities. I love the range on the MOXF8 and the fact it's weighted but I love the UI on the MODX series.

 

I have a lead on a reasonably priced used MOXF8, whose price is quite close to an used MODX7 I found. Spending a little more than I would prefer I could get a new MOXF8 + Flash, but at the same price I found a used MODX8. So, as you can see, I'm tempted from all sides: I could get a MODX7 but lose weighted keys, I could get a MOXF8 but get something outdated or I could get a MODX8 but spend too much on something I would use just for a hobby

 

I should also mention that I'm planning to use a small tablet to use other VSTs (i.e. a better Hammond) and to use something like Camelot Pro to better manage sound switching.

 

What would you do in my shoes?

[Stokely]

On paper, I should be a pretty good source of information: I own a Moxf8 and a Modx7. However, I bought the Moxf8 from my buddy when my son needed a weighted keyboard for a college class (labs were closed due to Covid)--so I haven't spent much time with it.

 

You've pretty much hit the main usage differences--the key action is very different and the OS is very different. I'm not totally a believer in touch screens as I worry they won't last as long, but I find the Modx7 very easy and intuitive to use. The Moxf8 from my brief times with it reminded me a lot of my old Motif, you do a lot more scrolling old-school fashion.

 

They both sound good to me, with the Modx7 having the additional FM engine.

 

I was able to play an Ipad from both of them--this is something I intend to do live and was trying to decide between them so this was a factor--the Modx seems a bit more flexible as a master controller if you want to mix and match zones coming from the ipad with internal sounds. However, in both cases the audio from the ipad came in via usb and each has a control for that volume. In both cases, I couldn't hear or feel any latency, very impressed by the engineering for this and I wish more keyboards had an interface.

 

I don't know anything about samples as that isn't something I need to do.

 

In my case, I decided to keep the Modx7 as a gigging keyboard simply because it's way smaller and more convenient. I haven't decided yet whether I'll keep the Moxf8 as a controller for my VSTs at home...the action isn't my favorite but it's also not bad IMO. I like it far more than my buddy's old Krome88 by way of comparison, and I like it less than some others I've tried (MP11, Nord Pianos, my old studiologic with a fatar tp-40 action). I think action is something you can adjust to but obviously there are quality differences. Playing piano on the Modx7 is a bit of an adventure, the keys are extremely light-weight and it can be hard to have any controls. Adjusting the velocity (AnotherScott has posted his own settings in the past) can help. For synth use, the action is ok on the Modx7 but of course no aftertouch. My Kurzweil pc361, retired due to an ailing screen, is better to play IMO. However, for organ playing, the Modx7 is actually pretty good, as the light keys lend themselves pretty well for a non-waterfall action. In fact, that will be how I'm using my ipad with it--to run the B-3x organ app.

[GianfrixMG]

You've pretty much hit the main usage differences--the key action is very different and the OS is very different. I'm not totally a believer in touch screens as I worry they won't last as long, but I find the Modx7 very easy and intuitive to use. The Moxf8 from my brief times with it reminded me a lot of my old Motif, you do a lot more scrolling old-school fashion.

If I got the MOXF8 I would probably end up creating a GUI to control both internal sounds via sysex and external VSTs, making the tablet "the brain" and using the MOXF8 more like a master keyboard with an integrated audio interface.

If I got a MODX I would have less of a need for it though.

 

They both sound good to me, with the Modx7 having the additional FM engine.

I would lose the FM engine but I could compensate with something like Dexed.

 

the Modx seems a bit more flexible as a master controller if you want to mix and match zones coming from the ipad with internal sounds.

What does the MODX have more than the MOXF in this regard? AFAIK on both of them I could passthrough the audio via USB or use the A/D input and apply some FX.

 

In my case, I decided to keep the Modx7 as a gigging keyboard simply because it's way smaller and more convenient. I haven't decided yet whether I'll keep the Moxf8 as a controller for my VSTs at home...the action isn't my favorite but it's also not bad IMO. I like it far more than my buddy's old Krome88 by way of comparison, and I like it less than some others I've tried (MP11, Nord Pianos, my old studiologic with a fatar tp-40 action). I think action is something you can adjust to but obviously there are quality differences. Playing piano on the Modx7 is a bit of an adventure, the keys are extremely light-weight and it can be hard to have any controls. Adjusting the velocity (AnotherScott has posted his own settings in the past) can help. For synth use, the action is ok on the Modx7 but of course no aftertouch. My Kurzweil pc361, retired due to an ailing screen, is better to play IMO. However, for organ playing, the Modx7 is actually pretty good, as the light keys lend themselves pretty well for a non-waterfall action. In fact, that will be how I'm using my ipad with it--to run the B-3x organ app.

I liked the action on my Numa Compact 2 in terms of feeling and weight, but I felt like I didn't have much control on the velocity, which varied too much especially between the black keys and the white keys. The PC361 has the same action, albeit "synth-style" and not "piano-style". With lockdowns here it's impossible for me to try before buying, thus I worry that I would have similar problems on the MODX7. I don't expect to play classical pieces on it but I expect for velocities to be consistent. I also tried a MOXF8 for a bit and I quite liked the action. It felt much more manageable than a TP100 I tried on a SL88 a while ago

I also worry about learning bad techniques by starting to play again on a semi-weighted board, which is also part of the reason why I sold my NC2, but if there are things like effects or sounds I would miss on the MOXF8 I may think about accepting the compromise. In the end I want something to play on and unwind after a long day at work!

[AnotherScott]

the Modx seems a bit more flexible as a master controller if you want to mix and match zones coming from the ipad with internal sounds.

What does the MODX have more than the MOXF in this regard? AFAIK on both of them I could passthrough the audio via USB or use the A/D input and apply some FX.

The best thing is a recent discovery of mine, that I actually haven't seen discussed (except in a thread I started at yamahasynth)... you can create/save Performances (user presets) that consist of nothing but an external sound, and since the basic architecture is such that you can import the contents of one Performance into another, that means that, for example, any time you want to add your "better Hammond" VST sound to a MODX Performance, you can add that Part just the way you would add a Part if it were an internal sound ("category search," locate sound by name, click on it). IOW, you can build up a library of external sounds which will appear as selectable named sounds on the screen, indistinguishable from internal sounds, so the external sounds really become an extension of the MODX library of sounds. (Aside: "indistinguishable" is not always a good thing, because you wouldn't want to accidentally invoke an external sound while the external device were not connected... so you'd want to name or categorize external patches such that you have a way of identifying them, to avoid selecting them when you don't want to.) On the MOXF, if you have a Performance (or Mix) to which you'd like to add an external sound, you copy it into a Master Mode location, and need to specify the external sound parameters from scratch (e.g. the MIDI channel and Program Change numbers that will bring up that sound). It's a lot more button presses, a lot more menu navigation, and a bunch of memorization or paper charts so that you'd know the Program Change numbers for all the external sounds you might want to use more than once. (Unless maybe there was some MOXF shortcut for this I don't know about.)

 

Another difference is that a MODX Performance can include up to 8 external sounds, a MOXF Master can include only up to 4 external sounds. (OTOH, the MOXF allows you to play up to 16 total parts from the keyboard at once, the MODX only permits up to 8.)

 

The other advantage I can think of is that the MODX has sliders for controlling 8 sounds simultaneously (4 sliders, quickly switchable between 1-4 and 5-8). They will normally control the volumes of your 8 keyboard-playable parts, each of which can be either an internal or external sound.* So once you create your MODX Performance, you have instant access to real-time volume controls for each sound, regardless of its source. Whereas the ability to assign the knobs on the MOXF (which has no sliders) to control the volumes of some desired combination of internal and external parts is more complicated, and especially so if you are attempting to split/layer a total or more than 4 sounds (in any internal/external combination). (I'm not even 100% sure you CAN use the 8 knobs to control the volumes of 8 parts, but I think you can.) Related: If you're using MODX sliders for volumes, you still have the knobs simultaneously available for other manipulations. If you're using MOXF knobs as volume controls, they're not simultaneously available to do something else.

 

* footnote for above: Actually, you can also set up a part to be a layer of an internal AND external sound, but I think that's generally not a great idea. Also volume slider part control on the MODX can be complicated by the fact SuperKnob programming can over-ride the volume slider function, and it can also be complicated by the fact that a single sound can span multiple parts, which means it's not always as simple as "oh, slider 1 is my piano sound" -- that piano sound could have its component bits split over multiple parts/sliders. I keep it simple. I avoid multi-part single-instrument sounds when creating splits/layers, and I haven't gotten into using the SuperKnob anyway (but you do have to be aware that it could be doing things in a factory patch that you need to accout for when using that patch).

 

I liked the action on my Numa Compact 2 in terms of feeling and weight, but I felt like I didn't have much control on the velocity, which varied too much especially between the black keys and the white keys...I worry that I would have similar problems on the MODX7. I don't expect to play classical pieces on it but I expect for velocities to be consistent. I also tried a MOXF8 for a bit and I quite liked the action.

My subjective experience based on the 2x is that the Numa Compact 2x keys initially feel better than MODX7 keys, but they play worse. The Numa keys do feel more "substantial" but, as you say, the velocity control (on pianos) is lacking (which I suspect is more a matter of lame velocity mapping than in the inherent behavior of the action**). MODX7 velocity control on its piano sounds is lacking as well, but there is enough fine control available that you can largely fix it, whereas Numa does not give you those controls (only a few coarse options, none of which are likely to be what you really want). Also, the MODX keys feel more even from front to back than the Numa keys do, and don't push back as much. But OTOH, there's no getting around that, physically, the MODX keys are very light, and it's never going to give you something like the hammer feel you liked when you played the MOXF8.

 

** footnote for above: Something I never tried was using the Numa to trigger an external piano VST... I suspect that they would play better, or if not, that at least there would be sufficient velocity adjustments so you could get them to play better.

[GianfrixMG]

The best thing is a recent discovery of mine, that I actually haven't seen discussed (except in a thread I started at yamahasynth)... you can create/save Performances (user presets) that consist of nothing but an external sound, and since the basic architecture is such that you can import the contents of one Performance into another, that means that, for example, any time you want to add your "better Hammond" VST sound to a MODX Performance, you can add that Part just the way you would add a Part if it were an internal sound ("category search," locate sound by name, click on it). IOW, you can build up a library of external sounds which will appear as selectable named sounds on the screen, indistinguishable from internal sounds, so the external sounds really become an extension of the MODX library of sounds.

Oh, that's a nice feature! It's basically what I wanted to do on the MOXF8 with the tablet. This way I would not take performance parts for external sounds and I would have basically unlimited storage to save these external/internal layers and splits.

It would be perfect if an insert effects could be applied to a part that uses external sounds via a single USB cable, but AFAIK it's only possible to apply effects if I used the A/D input, right?

 

On the MOXF, if you have a Performance (or Mix) to which you'd like to add an external sound, you copy it into a Master Mode location, and need to specify the external sound parameters from scratch (e.g. the MIDI channel and Program Change numbers that will bring up that sound). It's a lot more button presses, a lot more menu navigation, and a bunch of memorization or paper charts so that you'd know the Program Change numbers for all the external sounds you might want to use more than once. (Unless maybe there was some MOXF shortcut for this I don't know about.)

Wouldn't I need to send a program change of some sort to the external sound module from the MODX too? Otherwise how would I choose what VST to play?

 

Another difference is that a MODX Performance can include up to 8 external sounds, a MOXF Master can include only up to 4 external sounds. (OTOH, the MOXF allows you to play up to 16 total parts from the keyboard at once, the MODX only permits up to 8.)

Yeah, the MOXF allows up to 16 parts at the same time in Song mode, but up to 8 parts can have dual insert effects enabled.

 

The other advantage I can think of is that the MODX has sliders for controlling 8 sounds simultaneously (4 sliders, quickly switchable between 1-4 and 5-8). They will normally control the volumes of your 8 keyboard-playable parts, each of which can be either an internal or external sound.* So once you create your MODX Performance, you have instant access to real-time volume controls for each sound, regardless of its source. Whereas the ability to assign the knobs on the MOXF (which has no sliders) to control the volumes of some desired combination of internal and external parts is more complicated, and especially so if you are attempting to split/layer a total or more than 4 sounds (in any internal/external combination). (I'm not even 100% sure you CAN use the 8 knobs to control the volumes of 8 parts, but I think you can.) Related: If you're using MODX sliders for volumes, you still have the knobs simultaneously available for other manipulations. If you're using MOXF knobs as volume controls, they're not simultaneously available to do something else.

Yeah, I don't actually like the knobs configuration on the MOXF8 too much. I would end up adding something like a Korg NanoKontrol or just use something like TouchOSC. There are also some Yamaha apps for that on the iOS App Store so it's definetely possible.

 

My subjective experience based on the 2x is that the Numa Compact 2x keys initially feel better than MODX7 keys, but they play worse. The Numa keys do feel more "substantial" but, as you say, the velocity control (on pianos) is lacking (which I suspect is more a matter of lame velocity mapping than in the inherent behavior of the action**). MODX7 velocity control on its piano sounds is lacking as well, but there is enough fine control available that you can largely fix it, whereas Numa does not give you those controls (only a few coarse options, none of which are likely to be what you really want). Also, the MODX keys feel more even from front to back than the Numa keys do, and don't push back as much. But OTOH, there's no getting around that, physically, the MODX keys are very light, and it's never going to give you something like the hammer feel you liked when you played the MOXF8.

 

** footnote for above: Something I never tried was using the Numa to trigger an external piano VST... I suspect that they would play better, or if not, that at least there would be sufficient velocity adjustments so you could get them to play better.

Yeah, I remember trying to fix the internal curves using mididings (basically setting a curve shaped like this and setting an offset for the black keys) and only then it got a bit better, but it ended up glitching some sound changes when I used the wheel.

BTW my mind wants weighted keys for the better dynamic response, but I'm also tempted by the portability of the MODX7, although I don't have a band at all right now and I don't need to move the keyboard a lot.

[AnotherScott]

On the MOXF, if you have a Performance (or Mix) to which you'd like to add an external sound, you copy it into a Master Mode location, and need to specify the external sound parameters from scratch (e.g. the MIDI channel and Program Change numbers that will bring up that sound). It's a lot more button presses, a lot more menu navigation, and a bunch of memorization or paper charts so that you'd know the Program Change numbers for all the external sounds you might want to use more than once. (Unless maybe there was some MOXF shortcut for this I don't know about.)

Wouldn't I need to send a program change of some sort to the external sound module from the MODX too? Otherwise how would I choose what VST to play?

The distinction is, on the MODX, you specify the Program Change once in order to invoke and then save that sound selection into the keyboard, calling it, say, "B3X Green Onions." From then on, any time you want to make that sound part of a new Performance (a new recallable MODX user preset), e.g. if you want to split/layer it with some other sound, you just look for your "B3X Green Onions" sound the exact same way you'd call up any other existing sound on the MODX. The required Program Change is stored with your labeled "B3X Green Onions" performance, so you never have to look up or enter the numbers again any time you want to use that sound with any other sounds.

 

OTOH, on the MOXF, you'd have to enter the appropriate numerical MIDI data each and every time you wanted to create a patch with that sound, instead of only having to do it the first time. The equivalent to what the MODX is doing would be if the MOXF let you create a named User Voice that including nothing but the MIDI parameters for some external sound, so you could access and mix-and-match it with other sounds just as easily as you could do with sounds that were built into the keyboard. But there's no such facility in the MOXF.

[GianfrixMG]

The distinction is, on the MODX, you specify the Program Change once in order to invoke and then save that sound selection into the keyboard, calling it, say, "B3X Green Onions." From then on, any time you want to make that sound part of a new Performance (a new recallable MODX user preset), e.g. if you want to split/layer it with some other sound, you just look for your "B3X Green Onions" sound the exact same way you'd call up any other existing sound on the MODX. The required Program Change is stored with your labeled "B3X Green Onions" performance, so you never have to look up or enter the numbers again any time you want to use that sound with any other sounds.

 

OTOH, on the MOXF, you'd have to enter the appropriate numerical MIDI data each and every time you wanted to create a patch with that sound, instead of only having to do it the first time. The equivalent to what the MODX is doing would be if the MOXF let you create a named User Voice that including nothing but the MIDI parameters for some external sound, so you could access and mix-and-match it with other sounds just as easily as you could do with sounds that were built into the keyboard. But there's no such facility in the MOXF.

Oooh I get it now, thanks! Yeah, that's definitely a feature I would miss on the MOXF8, even if it's nothing I couldn't implement myself.

 

I don't know, I'm quite torn: the MODX series feels much more capable in terms of sound possibilities (e.g. integrated flash for custom sounds, super knob, motion controls, etc.) but my "impostor syndrome" feels like I could get by with the MOXF and save a bit of money.

[GianfrixMG]

In the end I got an used MODX7 in great condition. I've had it for a few months and I ended up quite liking the keybed. It's noisier than the NC2 IMO, but on the "hard" velocity curve I'm able to play some piano with nice dynamics and the keys press quite nicely even near the pivot (at least better than the Korg Kross I tried)

It's a bit complex sometimes to edit sounds on (for example, I can't split sounds with a single key press), but it's very powerful!

Overall I'm quite happy with the purchase!