Does Hip Hop send a bad message?

[TheFunkman]

I ain't here to hate the playa, I'm here to hate THE GAME:

 

How long has it been now...A good TWENTY-FIVE YEARS? **Is there really anything else left to say??**

 

It's like the state of pre-Beatles rock-n-roll by 1963...TIRED! WORN OUT! The masses have to be WAITING...Waiting for SOMETHING NEW!

 

Somebody's out there...Please, PLEASE, Lawd, let somebody be out there...who will take things to the NEXT LEVEL!!

[Lee Flier]

Well we've been around and around on this one several times here but... let's put it this way: Hip hop BEGAN as a means of self expression for those living in poor urban neighborhoods... I was one of those people at the time, and I thought Public Enemy and NWA were awesome, they had the kind of visceral energy that I love about the best rock'n'roll, and the skill the rappers had with phrasing and rhythm was fantastic. Not to mention the hopefulness and communal feelings that went along with pioneering a new art form. I use to see street corner rappers where I lived in L.A., and they kicked ass. And most were really positive people even if the specific subject matter they talked about was negative and/or violent. That was just the way it WAS and they didn't try to whitewash it. If anything they were trying to figure out ways to rise above it, and pass that message on to their kids.

 

As usual though, once hip-hop became Big Business it lost a lot of what it was about, and became about getting rich and appealing to the lowest common denominator. I was happy to see the old school rappers become successful, but then this other crap took over the mainstream airwaves. There are still some hip hop artists that are a positive force (like the Roots, they're cool) but in general it's been taken over by the same crassness that's taken over everything else in the media - TV, movies, pop music, etc. The "bad message" certainly isn't unique to hip hop.

 

As for the general idea of whether violent images/music/whatever can negatively influence people... teenagers are nearly always attracted to death and violence - it's something that goes along with adolescence just like sexual awakening does. Whether it's hip hop, death metal, violent movies and TV, violent video games, etc. most teens and young adults get something of value out of coming to terms with violence. That's why so many ancient cultures have "adulthood rituals" that usually involve something gory, violent or otherwise extreme... slaughtering a goat and drinking its blood, being forced to run around naked in the woods with no food for a few days, ritual circumcision, whatever. Most cultures have recognized the legitimate need that teenagers have to get in touch with their dark side.

 

However there is definitely such a thing as going too far with that, particularly if said teenagers don't have any other guidance about what's right and wrong. Super 8 talks about how listening to metal with violent themes didn't motivate him to actual violence, but he knew people that did commit violence seemingly under the "influence" of metal. I think a lot of it is a question of how a kid was raised, and how much they depend on their favorite bands or other heroes as substitute parents (particularly boys with no fathers or fathers who are a negative influence). It's also a question of boundaries - knowing the boundaries between fantasy and reality, and how much blood and guts is really enough. These things have to be counterbalanced with more positive messages or people's brains get programmed unconsciously to view things as portrayed in the movies, music, video games.

 

So, in the context of an otherwise self respecting teenager, violent fantasies and imagery and music are perfectly OK and necessary for most. Given a person who's already unstable or generally lacking in any healthy guidance, it's a powder keg. I don't advocate censorship, but I'm not going to pretend this stuff doesn't influence anybody, or that big business isn't largely responsible for the pervasiveness of negative messages.

[Franknputer]

Dang, I likes her. She talks good!

[Darklava]

Originally posted by TheFunkman:

I ain't here to hate the playa, I'm here to hate THE GAME:

 

How long has it been now...A good TWENTY-FIVE YEARS? **Is there really anything else left to say??**

 

It's like the state of pre-Beatles rock-n-roll by 1963...TIRED! WORN OUT! The masses have to be WAITING...Waiting for SOMETHING NEW!

 

Somebody's out there...Please, PLEASE, Lawd, let somebody be out there...who will take things to the NEXT LEVEL!!

Sorry no more levels left.

[Slowly]

I couldn't answer any of your poll questions because they were like....hip-hop. But don't fret, gangsta-rap appears to be falling off, and rap with a positive vibe is taking it's place. Kcbass

[Rog]

Originally posted by DARKLAVA:

Originally posted by TheFunkman:

I ain't here to hate the playa, I'm here to hate THE GAME:

 

How long has it been now...A good TWENTY-FIVE YEARS? **Is there really anything else left to say??**

 

It's like the state of pre-Beatles rock-n-roll by 1963...TIRED! WORN OUT! The masses have to be WAITING...Waiting for SOMETHING NEW!

 

Somebody's out there...Please, PLEASE, Lawd, let somebody be out there...who will take things to the NEXT LEVEL!!

Sorry no more levels left.

As long as much of the new music on the radio is complete shite, there will always be a next level.

[RobT]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

It's also a question of boundaries - knowing the boundaries between fantasy and reality, and how much blood and guts is really enough. These things have to be counterbalanced with more positive messages or people's brains get programmed unconsciously to view things as portrayed in the movies, music, video games.

 

So, in the context of an otherwise self respecting teenager, violent fantasies and imagery and music are perfectly OK and necessary for most. Given a person who's already unstable or generally lacking in any healthy guidance, it's a powder keg. I don't advocate censorship, but I'm not going to pretend this stuff doesn't influence anybody, or that big business isn't largely responsible for the pervasiveness of negative messages.

Lee, I know you don't have kids...but you are already equipped to be a great Mom!

 

[guittarzzan]

Personally, I hold very little respect for rappers white or black. In a sense it is a semi-poetic modern art, but not musical. The music behind them is, but when the lead vox is merely talking and not carrying any melody, it's hard to call it music just because there's music playing in the background. I hold more respect for the people who program the synths/ samplers etc and do the engineering.

The ironic thing is that I'd sag my pants and change my name to P Snappy if I could quit my job and get a million or two rapping. Sad, but honest.

 

cheers,

Steve

[Salyphus]

You can argue that any music you don't like is 'not music.'

Kind of a silly line of reasoning though, isn't it?

[Alon]

Some hiphop is good, some is bad.

 

Having said that, some morons who drive around in their pimpmobiles blasting garbage should be fined for obscenity. Just the other day Im walking down the street, theres people with kids, babies etc., and along comes a pimp mobile blasting some track at full volume. . . .

 

Nigga this, Nigga that.......Ho's, bitches, pussies, crack, glocks, thugs etc........

 

I'm not surpised that there's a lot of kids growing up today that could be considered mentally deficiant, when that is all they listen to all day.

 

aLoN

[Super 8]

Originally posted by guittarzzan:

In a sense it is a semi-poetic modern art, but not musical.

Define "Musicial"...

 

 

The ironic thing is that I'd sag my pants and change my name to P Snappy if I could quit my job and get a million or two rapping. Sad, but honest.

What's stopping you? If all it takes to make a 'million or two' is 'looking' the part, then why not do it? Is it really that simple???

Honestly, I'm sure you know better than that...so why say it?

[shniggens]

Originally posted by Alon:

Some hiphop is good, some is bad.

 

Having said that, some morons who drive around in their pimpmobiles blasting garbage should be fined for obscenity. Just the other day Im walking down the street, theres people with kids, babies etc., and along comes a pimp mobile blasting some track at full volume. . . .

 

Nigga this, Nigga that.......Ho's, bitches, pussies, crack, glocks, thugs etc........

 

I'm not surpised that there's a lot of kids growing up today that could be considered mentally deficiant, when that is all they listen to all day.

 

aLoN

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fo sho! Yo feelins are likes mines!

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How Hip Hop Keeps Blacks Down (and makes white people look silly)

 

http://www.rense.com/general41/hip.htm

[hmurchison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fo sho! Yo feelins are likes mines!

It's obvious you were never really interested in serious discourse on this subject. Just another vehicle for you to throw in your ebonics and pump your chest up. Congrats

 

The truth is closer to this. Most Hip Hoppers come from a lower income rearing. They have immense talent but that talent is wasted because ever since Gangsta Rap took ahold the Big 5 studios are only really looking for the Gangsta Genre. So if you want to make money then you're rapping about Bytches and Ho's and Gats and sex. Sure they have a choice but the lure of big money will get many a person to denigrate themselves.

 

I grew up with Hip Hop from day 1. Grandmaster Five, Melle Mel, Run DMC and everyone in that era never rapped about violence and killing people. This is a new phenomena. As Lee Fliers says...the minute non-blacks found that money could be made they destroyed mainstream Hip Hop.

 

It's very easy to subjugate another another ethnicity and culture and then force them into a despotic and rotten environment. America is famous for that. Capitalism's thorny side.

 

Note that Rappers can say N***A all they want but if they dare say anything about Jews or Asians then there's an outcry. This is nonsense. Most rappers today are just the 21st century minstrel acts. Dancing a jig for money. They realize it too because the popular rappers want to get into acting. Although Hollywoood is just the same. Discnnected with black reality they push the same thuggish or wooden black characters.

 

So again don't hate the playa hate the game. It's not blacks that are greenlighting this filth. It's men and women who have yachts and country club memberships. They are the biggest pimps of all.

 

Incidentally the second largest Hip Hop market just so happens to be France. I doubt French Hip Hoppers are fixated on death as the american rapper is. But then again France has always been more progressive than the US.

[shniggens]

WTF?

[felix.]

The first two songs I thought of when I saw this thread were Eminem's song from 8 Mile that was very positive and inspiring (Lose Yourself?), and the Black Eyed Peas recent hit. It also seems that there is a rise in fun, positive Hip Hop (like Outkast).

 

Is there a bad message in some songs? Sure - but not really much more than any other genre. Overall there certainly seems like there is more bragging and blatant materialism in the lyrics, but then that could be too much of a generalization on my part as well.

[Super 8]

Originally posted by hmurchison:

I grew up with Hip Hop from day 1. Grandmaster Five, Melle Mel, Run DMC and everyone in that era never rapped about violence and killing people. This is a new phenomena. As Lee Fliers says...the minute non-blacks found that money could be made they destroyed mainstream Hip Hop.

So you are saying that the violence themes in Hip Hop were brought in by white people???

 

Note that Rappers can say N***A all they want but if they dare say anything about Jews or Asians then there's an outcry.

An outcry from whom???? Jews and Asians? Nobody likes to be slammed. It's pretty understandable. What about the 'ho's and the 'bitches'??? Women probably don't like being called names or being treated like disposible property.

I don't get why Rappers say the N word. It's never made sense to me -unless they are adopting it the way that homosexuals adopted the word 'queer'.

[guittarzzan]

Well, I would define "musical" as something with melody. A person of any color just talking or yelling with no melody would fall into the "non musical" category imo. All the rhyming and phrasing is surely an art form of linguistic and slang manipulation, but without a melody, it's just poetry, and I use that term loosely; with music in the background. If a guy reads a newspaper out loud with a drum and bass loop in the background, is that a song? Is he doing anything musical? No.

I just wish they hadn't forgot the "c" when they named it rap. I tip my hat to all the producers, engineers and musician's who make rappers "songs" sound as good as they do. There's a lot of talented people squeezing wine from a turd. No offense

[Lee Flier]

Hmmm... so drum-only (non melodic) compositions such as those used in drum corps/marching band, the STOMP troupe, KODO (Japanese Taiko drummers) et al are not "music?" Even if they aren't, who cares? Call it "rhythmic art" or whatever you want... it still takes a great deal of skill to do it, and so does being a good rapper (keeping mind that most of what you hear on the radio ain't the "good" stuff, but that's just as true of rock or anything else right now).

[aliengroover]

I was gonna say pretty much what Lee said. Who has the right to define what music is? Long before your "Western melodies", people were making "muse-ic" with sticks and skin, among other things. Music is about feeling, about emotion. So to say it's not music because it has no melody is, well...not right.

Peace

[hmurchison]

So you are saying that the violence themes in Hip Hop were brought in by white people???

No it wasn't brought it by whites. I remember when "fuk tha police" hit and everyones draw hit the floor. Never before had a group been brazen enough to say this on a record. 5 years later every tom dick and harry group was screamin about the police.

 

Large Movie and Music studios know nothing of being unique but rather try to hope on the latest trends without regard for what it may being doing to society. It happens all the time. Larenz Tate was great as O'dogg in Menace to Society but that was one role. However, he received a bunch of scripts for O'dogg like characters afterwards. It shows the rat pat like mentality of the Entertainment industry.

 

An outcry from whom???? Jews and Asians? Nobody likes to be slammed.

Professor Griff, Public Enemy, Spike Lee, Jay Z have all been called Anti Semitic for saying far less than a jewish slur. Michael Jackson got roughed up for having the "nerve" to say "Kick me Kike me" on a record. P.diddy got into troule by saying "I got Asian women changing my linen/after I blazed and hit'em"

 

Why let the hypocrisy stand? What makes it acceptable to scream Nigga but not Kike? In fact I'm distrubed that I'm hearing rappers talk about "chinky" eyes. That's a racial slur against asians and I don't like it.

 

I'm just asking for the reciprocal treatment. If allow your artist to say Nigga Nigga Nigga then don't object when they start blastin' your race.

 

Well, I would define "musical" as something with melody. A person of any color just talking or yelling with no melody would fall into the "non musical" category imo.

Well damn according to your definition we'd have to rule out plenty of artists in lots of genre's. I respect your opinion but the basic building block of a song is a melody and that melody doesn't have to be sung but can rather be played via instrumentation. Hip Hop is heavily rythm laden and the drum and bass is of much performance. It's the reason why Hip Hop gets people dancing but classical does not.

 

I just happen to be open when it comes to music. I don't make artificial definitions of what music is or isn't.

 

Funny how I watched the biography on Jimi Hendrix last yesterday and realized that he had to go to Britain to become big and then come back to the states. Makes you wonder just why we are so stuffy here in the good ole US of A to realize great stuff.

[shniggens]

WTF?

 

Too many contradictions to list.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Super 8:

So you are saying that the violence themes in Hip Hop were brought in by white people???

No... but the money machine (which was mostly white at first, although now there are plenty of blacks cashing in too) rewarded those who came up with the most violent and "shocking" themes, cuz that's what they perceive sells the most (to whites as well as blacks - blacks are a minority in this country so to make the reeeeaal big money you gotta market to whites). In other words, that's what gets the airplay, the media promotion, all of that. Therefore that's what has shaped the average person's perspective on what hip hop is.

 

This is not unique to hip hop though, like I pointed out earlier... every form of art, politics, media are currently being destroyed by having become a greed driven race to the bottom.

[hmurchison]

Originally posted by shniggens:

WTF?

 

Too many contradictions to list.

Give it a try. Your points are just as valid as everyone elses.

 

This is not unique to hip hop though, like I pointed out earlier... every form of art, politics, media are currently being destroyed by having become a greed driven race to the bottom.

Bingo! I don't want to stray OT too much but the level on conglomeraton that our gov has allowed is ridiculous. Clear Channel should have never been able to buy as many stations. Media needs more outlets exempt from ownership by huge media companies.

 

Notice that music became "art" only when the RIAA was ranting against piracy. Music is just a commodity to some...art has nothing to do with it.

[LawrenceF]

Originally posted by Super 8:

I don't get why Rappers say the N word. It's never made sense to me -unless they are adopting it the way that homosexuals adopted the word 'queer'.

Maybe this will help you understand. It's gonna take a while so try to read the whole thing.

 

There are actually three different versions of the word with seperate and distinct sounds and meanings. One you hear on rap records. Another you hear from the Grand Wizard of the KKK in Mississippi. The third you don't really hear anymore.

 

Remember Hector Camacho winning a fight on TV and being asked about his next possible opponents? He said "Bring all them niggas on!" and everybody, except black people, freaked out and made a big deal about it. Black people understood his meaning and his context, nothing racial about it. He was a street kid talking in street language. Blacks knew exactly what he meant.

 

Now let a white or hispanic fighter yell on TV "Bring all those niggers on!" and pronounce the "R"? Black people will freak out because THAT pronunciation of the word is much more offensive and implies a racist context. He'll never fight on TV again. That pronunciation means (to an average black person) "less than human", or worse. It's a very explosive phrasing.

 

Directly to your question... if you grow up in the black inner city the word "nigga" is a commonly used word. In effect it means "dude" or "man" or "guy" in a way. There's nothing inherently menacing or racist about it. "Hey, where's John?" "Dunno. I 'aint seen that nigga."

 

Non-black kids (Macho Camacho) who grow up with blacks use the (non-threatening) version of the word with no repercussions. They say it in the context and with the phrasing that blacks who choose to use it say it. I see it and hear it all the time in inner-city youth sporting events. A white kid playing basketball will tell his black friends "that nigga keeps fouling me, I can't get a shot off." Nobody bats an eye.

 

It's the "er" that makes it potentially explosive. That's the historical klan-type pronunciation and context is practically irrelevant. That's the robot spinning and saying "Danger Will Robinson!!! You could be beaten to death here! Get in you car and go!" You'll NEVER hear that version on a rap record except perhaps in a parody of a racist white guy's speech.

 

There is a very big difference. Lastly the third version was Lyndon Johnson's way of saying it ending with "gra". That implies a less directly threatening old-world racism that's just about extinct. Just as bad as the "er" to most.

 

Now I don't mean to suggest that the average white kid could walk into the black community and use the "a" version freely. No freakin way, he'd have to actually be part of the culture and use it without thinking about it.

 

There you have it. Explain it to your friends.

 

Lawrence

[Salyphus]

Word up, nigga

[Mr. Downchild]

Getting back to the original question- no more so than rock sends a bad message.

 

Yep, this thread tends to recur a lot, and few if anyone seem to come away enlightened, but just remember: one person's treasure is another person's trash.

 

Don't go by what the media forces down your throat. Based on some of what I've read here, all I need to know about rock music I can find on TRQ. The ever-eloquent Lee Flier nailed it when she mentioned the involvement of the corporate machine and its effects on what we see/hear. To quote a well-known lyric "don't believe the hype."

 

I'm from 'the hood' yet rap in general never was my particular cup of tea. (trust me, I was considered an outcast a good couple of decades before anybody heard of Hey-Ya) So I don't spend my driving time with my car radio blasting to let other drivers know what a boomin' system I've got. Such over-generalizations are prejudiced if not patently racist.

 

I've had the pleasure of dealing with folks driving along in their pickup trucks blasting modern country at full volume. I'm personally offended that they feel it's necessary to share some of the most insipid lyrics I've ever heard with me. Yet, I ain't about to judge the music or the CMT crowd based on that. My beef is with that discourteous half-deaf assed driver. So if you can't tolerate that sort of road behavior you have a couple of options:

 

Stay home and never drive- 'cause it ain't going away.

 

Sit there at the red light, sulk, and mutter racist insults under your breath. Go ahead...they won't hear you.

 

Confront that guy whose 'music' offends you, but remember that road rage is now an American way of life.

 

What works for me - ignore 'em, deal with it, and get on with your life!

[DallasPA]

Hmmm,

 

Have you ever heard the saying "Don't Shoot the Messenger".

 

Its not so much the music as much as the listener, and their state of mind. If your just looking for entertainment rap is no different than seeing a horror movie, or listening to classical music. The problem arises when you have a problem or issue and you begin translating your current situation in light of the music your listening to. This happens quite often because rappers are detailing everyday problems that occur in the urban sprawl. Rap can then become a form of liquid courage, heightening your sense of invincibility, and providing some answers that should not be taken seriously.

 

This doesnt make rap immoral or a bad messenger, just a really bad crutch!!!!!!

 

Dallas

[LawrenceF]

Originally posted by DallasPA:

... Rap can then become a form of liquid courage, heightening your sense of invincibility, and providing some answers that should not be taken seriously.

Now that's the best answer I've heard yet. Good line man, change it to "audio courage" and copywrite it!

 

Lawrence

[kylen]

My beef is with that discourteous half-deaf assed driver.

Yummy - Johnny Guitar Watson !

 

Hehe, when the music moves ya you're kind of in your own zone. Yep, just gotta wait for the storm to pass - or create your own storm...

 

I still have a problem with someone blowin profanity out their window at me usin' their stereo as some kind of surrogate street preacher from hell - don't do that. Drivers - If you're readin this don't do that, fair enough ?

 

Respect yourself, respect me - if you want to go into discussions about socio-economic-political conditions that led you to wherever you are and assess culpability as well as discussing your options - fine. Maybe your music is more of a war cry, a rally to the cause, something that activates you, that's good. Just don't hold a politiical rally at every stoplight, eh ?

 

Same to that poor lady tryin out for 'Nashville Star' or whatever that show is at the stoplights - hehe - poor thing...

 

Oh well - diverse culture, eh ? We shouldn't be fightin about all this - there's more important work to do - speaking of work - I've got a house to sell, gotta run bye !