Midi problem

[70x7]

Kurzweil usb out to Kenton usb in

 

Korg Krome midi out to Kenton midi in

 

When I play the Korg Kurzweil plays piano

Only

 

Is the problem my Korg or Kurzweil

 

?????

[J. Dan]

The korg is transmitting on whatever MIDI channel it's set to. The Kurzwel (you don't mention which one you have) is set up so that piano is on that MIDI channel.

[70x7]

 

Hi Dan

Korg set to channel one or the Kurzweil wouldnt play which it did

Just couldnt get other voices to play.Kurzweil set to all or midi 1

Its the KP 110 usb out only it works with my Roland VK 8 M

Organ module no problem & my Krome gets it to play the piano

 

??

[Sven Golly]

MIDI is not the problem, it's your misunderstanding of how MIDI, and more specifically your equipment, works. Time for some manual reading, and probably would help to read a MIDI tutorial like these ones.

[J. Dan]

Depending on the Kurzweil settings, it's likely responding on multiple channels. Playing the VK 8M from the Kurz is irrelevant because you're sending MIDI from the Kurz to the Roland and has nothing to do with what the Kurz is receiving FROM the Korg.

 

You are using the OUT from the Korg which means MIDI is going in ONE direction. USB from the Kurz is the same as both an OUT and an IN cable, if they were MIDI cables, so it can send AND receive.

 

You obviously have the VK8M set to the same channel that the Kurz is TRANSMITTING on but that doesn't change the fact that there is a piano sound in the Kurz that is set to receive on Channel 1 from the Korg.

[70x7]

Appreciate the advice but Ive played multiple keys set ups for thirty years with midi.But this is the first time I have a keyboard without midi, the Kurzweil is usb out only, so I bought a Kenton midi usb host

which works with usb compliant keyboards which the Kurzweil is

 

 

 

Nord Electro 5D,Korg Krome 88,Yamaha MX61,Roland Vk8M,Kurzweil KP110

[70x7]

Just to make things understandable the Kurzweil/Roland

and Kurzweil/Korg are 2 different set ups

 

I was just implying now that Ive received today the Kenton usb midi host... the Kurzweil as controller Roland as slave works fine.

 

But when Im using the Korg Krome as the controller Kurzweil

as slave... the only sound coming from the Kurzweil via the Krome is the piano voice nothing else. Ive used my Krome to control other keyboards just fine but they all had midi

this is something new

[AnotherScott]

Kurzweil usb out to Kenton usb in

 

Korg Krome midi out to Kenton midi in

 

When I play the Korg Kurzweil plays piano

Only

Korg set to channel one or the Kurzweil wouldnt play which it did

Just couldnt get other voices to play.Kurzweil set to all or midi 1

Okay, so Krome MIDI OUT is set to channel 1, and Kurzweil is set to respond to MIDI channel 1 or all. Is the Kurzweil itself set to play a piano sound? If so, why would you expect to hear anything other than piano coming out of the Kurzweil when you play it from the Krome? What do you think you should be hearing? Or is the Kurzweil itself not set to play a piano sound?

[70x7]

Hi Scott just want to hear the different Kurzweil voices activated by my Krome the Kurzweil is 61 keys my Krome is 88 keys more flexabilty

 

ie Ive use my Krome midied to my Yamaha MX61 can play all the different voices of the Yamaha with the Krome Ive used it with my Nord Electro 5D same result. Use the Krome with my Roland vk8m no problemo Just the Kurzweil???

 

[AnotherScott]

Hi Scott just want to hear the different Kurzweil voices activated by my Krome

I still don't understand the problem. What are you doing to try to activate those voices? Are you having the Krome send Program Change commands to the Kurzweil? Or are you selecting different sounds from the front panel of the Kurzweil itself? Or...?

[70x7]

Hi Scott Both

I tried from the Kurzweil screen and they sound thru speakers when I play the Kurzweil but when I play it via the Krome the Kurzweil

Piano sounds only

 

 

I did try the Krome plus and minus and other Kurzweil sounds came out but

You dont see it on the Kurzweil screen

But its very confusing you cant play them in sequence

And yes I want to control them by the Krome

[Sam CA]

So Kurzweil is slaved to Krome.

 

If Kurzweil is ignoring PC messages, then it's also possible that PC messages are being filtered.

[Sven Golly]

MIDI is not the problem, it's your misunderstanding of how MIDI, and more specifically your equipment, works. Time for some manual reading, and probably would help to read a MIDI tutorial like these ones.

 

I've emphasised the pertinent part of my post. My parents have been driving for 60 years, but neither one of them knows how to change a spark plug.

 

Also, the fact that you don't seem to get that MIDI over USB is the same as MIDI over DIN leads me to believe that you really don't understand your gear.

 

This isn't personal, I've been consulting on MIDI since its inception. I've only been (mis)interpreted as insulting in this forum since 2003.

 

TL;DR - you don't understand your Kurzweil KP-110 keyboard. Until you understand it better, you're not going to get this "solved".

[70x7]

Sven youre right I dont understand the Kurzweil

But the manual doesnt give you many options

Just midi in on or off

Midi out same

Its a cheap Kurzweil KP 110

But Ive used my Krome many times as a controller

And other keyboards as slaves no problem

[Markyboard]

The KP-110 can play up to 3 voices (sounds) simultaneously; If the Dual function is on there's voices R1 and R2 for layering 2 sounds. If you have the Lower function enabled there's also the lower voice.

 

The manual doesn't state which voice is controlled by midi but it's probably either the lower one or the dual voices , not all. Since you only hear piano I suggest you go into each one of these modes, change the sound and see if that helps. This is documented on page 11 of the manual.

[AnotherScott]

Hi Scott Both

I tried from the Kurzweil screen and they sound thru speakers when I play the Kurzweil but when I play it via the Krome the Kurzweil

Piano sounds only

 

 

I did try the Krome plus and minus and other Kurzweil sounds came out but

You dont see it on the Kurzweil screen

But its very confusing you cant play them in sequence

My guess is this has nothing to do with the fact that it's USB (or that you're using a Kenton adapter). It sounds like the Kurz is only seeing MIDI input as a completely separate MIDI source rather than being able to mirror its own keyboard (regardless of channel settings). This is not unheard of. Unfortunately, Kurzweil provides very little info about their MIDI implementation in the manual. I think you need to contact Kurz and ask if what you want to do is something that it can do at all (i.e. have an external keyboard play the same sound that is selected for the internal keyboard; and have that sound respond to MIDI Program Change commands such that, when you send a Program Change from an external keyboard, it changes the sound you're playing from the Kurzweil's own keys). Some boards just don't permit this.

[SeaGtGruff]

I believe I understand this problem very well, because the Yamaha PSR-E keyboards that I own behave similarly. AnotherScott said what the problem is, but this is to expand a bit on what he said and suggest some possible solutions.

 

The KP110 and similar multitimbral keyboards have different parts that can control their tone generators. These parts are typically divided into three categories-- the keyboard parts, the style (accompaniment) parts, and the song parts. On some higher-level keyboards there are often MIDI settings available which let you associate a given keyboard part with a given song part, or a given song part with a given style part, etc. But lower-level keyboards (such as the KP110 or my PSR-E models) have no such accessible functions, hence there's no way to have a given song part control a given keyboard part.

 

On the KP110 there are three keyboard parts-- VOICE R1, VOICE R2, and VOICE L. I'm guessing these are also called UPPER 1, UPPER 2, and LOWER (see the Mixer information on page 21). You can select any of the preset voices to play with any of these three keyboard parts, but they have nothing to do with the style parts or song parts.

 

There are a number of style parts. From the Mixer information on page 21, I'm guessing there are eight style parts and they're known as PERCUSSION, RHYTHM, BASS, CHORD 1, CHORD 2, CHORD 3, PHRASE 1, and PHRASE 2.

 

Finally, there are 16 song parts-- the 16 MIDI channels of a MIDI song file. When you send MIDI data to the KP110 on its 16 MIDI IN channels, the incoming data is sent to these 16 song parts. (The 16 MIDI OUT channels are a bit more complex, because they do double duty for transmitting either the keyboard parts and style parts, or the 16 song parts when you're playing back a recorded User Song.)

 

I don't know if it will help you get a grasp on the above, but you might want to look at a User's Guide for one of the Casio CTK models, because Casio is nice enough to list 32 MIDI parts which they call A01 through A16, plus B01 through B16, and list the specific keyboard/style/song parts associated with each of these 32 MIDI parts. Other keyboard manufacturers don't usually do this in their owner's manuals, which makes everything seem more obscure and mysterious. For example, see page E-36 of the User's Guide for the CTK-7200.

 

Anyway, if you select a preset voice to use as VOICE R1, you will hear that preset voice when you play the KP110-- unless you have the DUAL and/or LOWER features active, in which case you might hear VOICE R1, VOICE R1 plus VOICE R2, or VOICE L.

 

But if you send MIDI Note events to the KP110 on channel 1 (or 2, or 3, etc.), you won't hear those keyboard voices. Instead, you'll hear either whatever voices are the "defaults" for each channel-- usually the GM Standard Drum Kit for channel 10, and the GM Acoustic Grand Piano for all other channels-- or you'll hear whichever voices were last selected for each channel via the MIDI IN messages or the MIDI song messages.

 

So what can you do?

 

If the Korg can be programmed to send specific Bank and Program values for which available voices exist on the Kurzweil, you could try to program the Korg to send the appropriate "patch request" to the Kurzweil. Since the KP110's manual doesn't show the Bank and Program values used for each of its preset voices, you'd probably first need to monitor the KP110's MIDI OUT data while you select specific voices, so you can see what Bank and Program values are used for those KP110 preset voices.

 

Another possibility would be create MIDI song files that you can play back on the KP110, but where each song contains just the patch setup data, with no actual Note data. In other words, when you select and play a given song file on the KP110, it would set up each of the 16 song channels (or at least the ones you wanted to play via the Korg master) with the desired Bank Select MSB/LSB, Program Change, Channel Volume, Panning, Reverb Depth, Chorus Depth, etc. Selecting a specific song on the KP110 would be like pressing a Registration button to recall a particular setup, except you'd be recalling a song setup, not a keyboard setup, if you follow me. Any MIDI Note events received on the KP110's MIDI IN channels should be sounded using those voices.

 

The only problem with that solution is that it's a no-go on the KP110, because the KP110 doesn't let you load "external" songs, and I'm guessing the 10 User Songs that you can record on the KP110 wouldn't be adequate for this.

 

A third solution would be to loop the KP11's MIDI OUT back to its MIDI IN, so you can set the patches for the song channels by selecting a given preset voice for VOICE R1 etc., or maybe by recalling a given Registration. I'm guessing that this is going to be your best option, although you'll probably have to add another MIDI box to your setup-- a MIDI merger box that could merge the MIDI coming from the Korg with the MIDI being looped back from the KP110. In other words, your hardware setup would look like the following:

 

- Korg MIDI OUT to MIDI IN #1 on the MIDI merger box

- Kenton MIDI OUT to MIDI IN #2 on the MIDI merger box

- MIDI OUT on the MIDI merger box to Kenton MIDI IN

- Kenton USB to Kurzweil USB

 

Assuming the KP110 transmits its VOICE R1 part on MIDI OUT CH01, you could have the Korg transmit on CH01 as well. Then the data which the KP110 receives on CH01 would be a combination of what the Korg is sending on CH01 (Note events) and what the KP110 is transmitting on CH01 (Bank/Program/CC events generated when you select a given preset voice for VOICE R1).

[AnotherScott]

I believe I understand this problem very well, because the Yamaha PSR-E keyboards that I own behave similarly.

I've also run into this. The basic issue seems to be that the board sees 16 channels of incoming MIDI as being for the purpose of generating backing tracks (playing a sequence)... it may play up to 16 different sounds over MIDI over the 16 channels, but none of its 16 channels of incoming MIDI correspond to what is selected to play on the board itself. So sending Program Changes from the external board will not change the sound triggered from the board's own keys, and playing keys on the external board will not trigger the same sound that has been selected on the board itself to be played from its own keys. Roland VR09 does this. (It also has other MIDI modes, but IIRC, none of them do the most common thing of simply letting you use an external set of keys to trigger the current internal sound setup.) I've run into it in Casio Privias as well.

 

If the Korg can be programmed to send specific Bank and Program values for which available voices exist on the Kurzweil, you could try to program the Korg to send the appropriate "patch request" to the Kurzweil. Since the KP110's manual doesn't show the Bank and Program values used for each of its preset voices...

Wow, not only is there almost no MIDI info in the manual... it doesn't even give you the Program Change values associated with the sounds. That's really lame.

 

 

[Markyboard]

Hi Scott Both

I tried from the Kurzweil screen and they sound thru speakers when I play the Kurzweil but when I play it via the Krome the Kurzweil

Piano sounds only

 

I'm not sure why you guys are worried about remote program changes over midi. This just complicates the troubleshooting imo. Unless you're suggesting sounds played remotely can only be changed remotely. That would be a new one for me.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

I'm not sure why you guys are worried about remote program changes over midi. This just complicates the troubleshooting imo. Unless you're suggesting sounds played remotely can only be changed remotely. That would be a new one for me.

Since he was asking about triggering different sounds, I asked how he was doing his patch selection, just to clarify what he was doing. But as it turns out, yes, this may be a case where sounds played remotely can only be changed remotely, which is not unheard of.

[70x7]

Thanks guys especially seagruff

Very detailed

Ive set the Kurzweil to all in midi &

In voice mode

 

Korg Krome Program change & midi channel 1

Ill keep fooling with it

 

I just wanted to play the Kurzweil 61 key voices

With my 88 key Krome thats all

[Markyboard]

... which is not unheard of.

 

Not any more!

[70x7]

Anyway s guys have a good Christmas

Jesus is the. Reason for the Season

[SeaGtGruff]

So sending Program Changes from the external board will not change the sound triggered from the board's own keys, and playing keys on the external board will not trigger the same sound that has been selected on the board itself to be played from its own keys.

 

Exactly-- although there may be limited ways around this.

 

For example, the Yamaha PSR-E models have a "Voice 000" which selects the "OTS" or "One Touch Setting" voice. If you select Voice 000 on the keyboard, then switch to Song mode and select a song, or to Style mode and select a style, the Bank/Program values on channel 1 will select the preset voice to use for the MAIN part (a.k.a. RIGHT1, UPPER1, or whatever). That gives you a way to issue a "preset change request" for the MAIN part via a sequencer or master keyboard: Set the MAIN part to Voice 000, then send Bank/Program messages on channel 1. Unfortunately, the MAIN part doesn't seem to accept other channel 1 settings, such as Channel Volume, Panning, Attack Time, LPF Cutoff, Reverb Depth, etc., so you're stuck with whatever default settings are programmed into the preset voice that was chosen-- and many of the preset voices are programmed with low (quiet) default Channel Volume settings.

 

The PSR-E models also have a "Song Melody Voice" function that lets you copy the MAIN part's preset voice to the Bank/Program values for channel 1, giving you a way to change the song's channel 1 voice. In fact, now that I think about it, that would be the ideal solution to this issue-- if the slave keyboard in question were a PSR-E: Send your MIDI Note data from the master keyboard on channel 1, and when you want to change the voice for those Notes just select whichever one you want to use for the MAIN part and then hold down the VOICE button for a second or two to copy the MAIN part's preset voice to channel 1. Again, I believe this copies only the Bank/Program values, not any other CC settings, so you're stuck with whatever the default settings are for that preset voice.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't see anything like that in the KP110's manual. [EDIT: Meaning the "Song Melody Voice" feature. The KP110 does have an "OTS" feature.]

 

Wow, not only is there almost no MIDI info in the manual... it doesn't even give you the Program Change values associated with the sounds. That's really lame.

 

I've seen that sort of thing before. I think manufacturers sometimes feel that a particular model is being marketed to a particular type of buyer, and they don't expect the typical buyer in that market segment to have much of a clue about MIDI-related issues, so they deliberately provide little more than a brief explanation of how to connect the keyboard to a computer, and maybe a bit of information about which types of MIDI messages are acknowledged by the keyboard, but very little (if any) in-depth information. Basically, if you want more detailed information you might need to monitor the keyboard's MIDI output as you select different voices, reverb types, etc., to see what messages and parameter values are being used.

 

Someone on another forum claimed that the Kurzweil KP100 is exactly the same keyboard as both the Medeli M361 and the Roland E-X20, which I found very difficult to believe-- until I went searching online and downloaded the manuals for all three of those keyboards. And guess what? Yep, you guessed it. I'm not sure if the KP110 is the same, but I do remember looking a while back to see what differences there are between the KP100 and the KP110. I don't remember if one is successor to the other, or one is a slightly-better model than the other, etc.

[70x7]

Man! All 3 keyboards look alike

Probably made all by the same manufacturer lol

 

Kurzweil KP 100 less voices less beats

1 track recording

 

Whereby the KP 110 is 6 track

 

I just got it for the sounds and its light weight

I pretty well use my Nord for everything

[AnotherScott]

Someone on another forum claimed that the Kurzweil KP100 is exactly the same keyboard as both the Medeli M361 and the Roland E-X20, which I found very difficult to believe-- until I went searching online and downloaded the manuals for all three of those keyboards. And guess what? Yep, you guessed it.

...though the Kurz page says that theirs has their triple strike piano. So it may be the same piece as the others, but with a different ROM with their own piano sound? Or maybe Kurz supplied the piano sample for all of them as part of joint development, even though the others don't mention the Kurzweil Triple Strike.

 

I do remember looking a while back to see what differences there are between the KP100 and the KP110. I don't remember if one is successor to the other, or one is a slightly-better model than the other, etc.

At least from the chart at http://kurzweil.com/content/migration/downloads/pub/Kurzweil/Home_Products/Comparisons/Kurzweil_Home_Comparison_Chart.pdf the 110 has more rhythms and more powerful speakers.

[70x7]

SO will the real Keyboard come forward lol