GeorgeVW Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Without fusion (or some other more efficient method of generatiing power) hydrogen's a false concept of savings. It takes more energy to separate out the hydrogen than you get back from it (conservation of energy and entropy anybody?), and right now, most of that energy comes from fossil fuels. You're just moving where the fossil fuel is being burned from inside your car to inside a factory. Hydrogen storage is a nightmare, as well. The only reason you're seeing the push for hydrogen fuel cell cars is that it's the form of fuel that existing oil companies can produce and keep their distribution system and current business model active. Oil companies got lots of money to lobby to block other alternative energy research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaptain Karl Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Its all those damn Hummers, Escalades, Excurtions, Big Bimmers, Big Mercedes, and other gas hog vehicles. Those jerks are driving up demand. Bicycle, bicycle...I like to ride my bicycle. "When I look at the smiles on all the children's faces,,...I just know they're about to jab me with something." -Homer J. Simpson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyscots Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Two mistakes by me. Originally posted by GeorgeVW: Are you figuring to Imperial Gallons or US Gallons? Just a nitpick, but since 5 Imperial Gallons ~ 6 US Gallons, while still expensive, it wouldn't be quite that much (about $7.10 as opposed to the $8.60 you quote).I was aware of the US/Imperial difference but I couldn't remember it off the top of my head, so I just posted an estimate, sorry to be misleading. However, that wasn't as bad as this one: Lakeside Studios Unless fuels gone horribly expensive north of the border,I think you mean 79p per litre, John. I just filled up today here in Bristol,58.55 litres for £43.85, or about 75p per litre. At current rates, that's about $5 per US gallon. Still a lot cheaper in the US though.Oops, sorry. Yes I did mean 79.9p per litre. I'm so used to seeing a $1.?? figure from my time in the States I typed £1 automatically. I'm appalled I didn't notice my mistake when I (badly) converted to gallons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by GeorgeVW: San Francisco is about 400 miles north of L.A.I know,I traveled from LA(lived there for 2 years) to play the Boarding House once years ago,so I'm familiar with where it is,it's in northern California(that better?)last I heard,not a state unto it's own(hence my point regarding gas price disparity in the same state).Sorry for the north/south technical slip up,it's just that when I travel West,things seem upside down. . As far as calling it "Frisco", tough! "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GY Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 I was thinking that although I think it stinks, I can handle the increase. But those in the trucking industry can't. It trickles dowm and gets passed on to us with an increase in prices (they have no choice). So we're gettin' it twice! In the rear! Originally posted by daklander: My fleet fuel costs have risen by 75% in the last 6 months or so. I'm anticipating an expenditure of over $300,000.00 this year. My single largest outlay of cash in my fleet is fuel. That cost is higher than all other costs combined, including insurance, registration, tires, & other repair and maintenance. Ridiculous. GY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug osborne Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by deanmass: Fuel prices are tied to the futures market more than the physical supply. ... This, imho, is gonna be a good year to make money in the energy markets. Election year, war in Iraq, terrorist uncertainty etc all feed the machine. ...And once again, the majority of us are screwed so a small minority of already-wealthy can make more money. We pay more in direct fuel costs, and we pay more in indirect fuel costs passed along to us with increased product costs. The oil companies know full well that there will be fluctuations in their supply and their costs from suppliers. Adjusted for inflation, the price of crude oil to US refiners is actually historically low. It's ludicrous for oil companies to pass along these short term increases (as well as accidents that are the cost of doing business ) to consumers, since there is essentially no competition for this essential product. Doug Osborne Music on Bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovepusher Sly Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by GeorgeVW: It takes more energy to separate out the hydrogen than you get back from it, and right now, most of that energy comes from fossil fuels...........Hydrogen storage is a nightmare, as well. These guys, stuart energy , say they have a solution. I know it uses electricity, but you have to start somewhere. The only reason you're seeing the push for hydrogen fuel cell cars...... The guys making the Hydrogen Powered Shelby Hydrogen Car Company are mainly talking about liquid hydrogen.Sly Whasineva ehaiz, ehissgot ta be Funky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeVW Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Originally posted by Groovepusher Sly: These guys, stuart energy , say they have a solution. I know it uses electricity, but you have to start somewhere.They have a way around the laws of conservation of mass and energy? Whoa! Call the Nobel committee, quick! Yes, it uses electricity. Electricity is, for the most part, generated from fossil fuel burning plants (coal, gas, or oil). See my point about simply moving the pollution around. And it still takes more energy to get the hydrogen than you get back from it. The guys making the Hydrogen Powered Shelby Hydrogen Car Company are mainly talking about liquid hydrogen.Sly Even the most efficient current liquid hydrogen storage has a net loss of 2.5-3% per day. Don't drive for a week, and you've lost 20 percent of your fuel through evaporation. What a goldmine for the fuel companies! You gotta refuel your vehicle, even if you're not driving. Hydrogen fueled cars are not long term practicable without a revolutionary new source of electricity to generate (well, extract, really) the hydrogen. The only free source of energy we have is sunlight (it's what keeps the earth from being a closed, entropic system). Concentrating on more efficient solar cells and better electricity storage is the current best hope (but the one that gets ignored because nobody's figured out how to meter sunshine yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanmass Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 ...[/qb]And once again, the majority of us are screwed so a small minority of already-wealthy can make more money. We pay more in direct fuel costs, and we pay more in indirect fuel costs passed along to us with increased product costs. The oil companies know full well that there will be fluctuations in their supply and their costs from suppliers. Adjusted for inflation, the price of crude oil to US refiners is actually historically low. It's ludicrous for oil companies to pass along these short term increases (as well as accidents that are the cost of doing business ) to consumers, since there is essentially no competition for this essential product.[/QB] Oh, no argumnent on that...! I was just trying to tell you what I learned working in the trade. All of us are getting reamed on fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philter Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Oil Prices Surge to Record 13-Year High Gas Prices Seen Rising Even Higher ---------------------------- Phil Mann http://www.wideblacksky.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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