Yamaha P255, CP 4, CP 40??? Att'n DAVE FERRIS

[jimkost2002]

I am looking for a DP for home practice only ...... But I need something that has 1/4 outs to go into mixer.

 

I like Yamaha APs and am generally a fan of the GH action in the DPs.

Sound to finger response is ESSENTIAL to me.

 

So, my questions are these:

 

1) Is there an appreciable enough difference AP sample quality and action between the CP 4 and CP 40 to justify $1000?

 

2) Are there significant differences in action between these two and the P255.

 

For Dave Ferris:

 

Were either the CP40 or P255 in the running for you before you chose the CP 4? If so, what factors made you choose the CP4?

Thanks!!!

 

[ElmerJFudd]

You've got to give a budget, too many console and slab DPs to pick from. Most of them have 1/4" outs, some have balanced XLRs as well.

 

If it's for practice and won't leave the house, why not a console? Then you get the triple pedal, amp and speakers built with a nice music rest and a place to lay your phone or iPad, a clock, a cup of coffee (on coaster please), etc.

 

Also, my guess is if it's for practice, the action is a priority?

 

But if a slab is what you're after, the CP-40 has the GH action. The CP-4 has Natural Wood Graded Hammer (NW-GH) action with Synthetic Ivory Keytops (with real-wood white keys). Without a doubt you are going to prefer the CP-4. The P-255 is the best of the P series without a doubt. It has the GH action with synthetic ivory. You'll still prefer the CP-4 (it sounds the best as well), but the P-255 might be good enough if the CP-4 is out of your budget. All provide 1/4" outs.

 

CP-4 - $2299.99

CP-40 - $1399.99

P-255 - $1299.99

 

---

 

Others slabs to consider:

 

Kawai MP-11 - $2799

Kawai VPC-1 - $1849 (controller for use with software piano, ie. Pianoteq, Synthogy, etc.)

Kawai MP-7 - $1799

Kawai ES-8 - $1999

Kawai ES-100 - $799

 

Casio - PX-5S - $999.99

Casio PX-560 - $1199.99

Casio PX-360 - $899.99

[jimkost2002]

Thanks, Senor Fudd!

To answer your questions:

Why not a console?

1) Space is a premium and I want it set up with the rest of my rig and be able to move it in and out of that configuration easily and I HATE consoles.....

2) Action IS a priority.

3) Budget is also a priority as I'm more of a Rhodes/B3 player and I want to spend the bulk of my gear $$ on a VV tine piano and a new clone-probably Mojo, but maybe SK-2 or C2d for in town gigs and XK-5 system for touring..... So, if I can get away with $1300 or under, I will.

Plus, I don't want to invest too much in a plastic box that has a 5-7 year lifespan, if I'm lucky, you dig?

4) Considering what I've said here, could I get away with the PX-5s? My concerns with PX are : noisy, clacky action and longevity......

[Nicky]

I don't think it's a given you will prefer the CP4 over the P255. I don't. The graded hammer action in the CP4, whereas the lower end of the keyboard has a heavier feel is completely exaggerated in my opinion, and feels like no grand piano I've ever played...including my Yamaha grand piano.

[AnotherScott]

1) Is there an appreciable enough difference AP sample quality and action between the CP 4 and CP 40 to justify $1000?

IIRC, the CP4 has more pianos in it than the CP40. So if you pick one of the piano sample sets that both models have, they should sound the same, but there are other ones you can choose in the CP4 that don't exist in the CP40. Action is personal preference, but most people think the CP4 feels better than the CP40 (which I believe is the same as the P255, to get back to your other question).

 

I think the Casio is a great action for the price and travel weight, but if you have more budget and if it's for home use where travel weight is not an issue, I"d say you can do better, even staying within a relatively moderate price range. Personally, I think the CP4 would be a good choice, and I would also look at the Kawai MP7.

[jimkost2002]

Scott, I'm considering the Casio for its controller capabilities as well. It would be great if I could hit that base for my computer applications (Logic, Omnisphere 2, Mainstage) as well!

[jimkost2002]

PS---

I may be posting a mint never gigged Forte 7 with gator case very soon.

[AnotherScott]

Scott, I'm considering the Casio for its controller capabilities as well. It would be great if I could hit that base for my computer applications (Logic, Omnisphere 2, Mainstage) as well!

That is an area where the PX5S would outshine the CP4/40... but the Kawai MP7 is a pretty capable controller, too (and as a piano, I would put both its action and sound above Casio's).

[ElmerJFudd]

My local shop of late has had a nice collection on the floor. I like to spend a bunch of time moving from one to the other and back and forth, returning, skipping while the Mrs. is perusing the sheet music collection. Here are my feelings of late. Personal preference, your mileage may vary. Not trying to say which you should choose, action is very personal. But you may find, if you get a chance to play them all, some validation that your impressions are similar. I enjoy a weighted and graded action that's quick enough to repeat notes and doesn't make you feel like you have to beat the heck out of it to get your fff and can produce a ppp without missed note attacks. I also don't enjoy a hard bottoming out that's not kind to your joints and tendons. That's the challenge in a slab DP, imho.

 

Just on actions and feel while playing their base piano sound I like this collection in this order top to bottom.

 

Kawai ES8 by a long shot. This is a very good compact action in a slab digital piano. Nice feeling keys. Responsive Hammer III (RHIII) Action with Let-Off. Nice feeling on trills and quickly repeated notes.

 

P-115 Graded hammer standard (GHS) keyboard, matte finish on black keys.

 

Casio PX-5S - different than the P-115 and the GHS is a little better, but the key finish on the Casio is a nice touch on a quite playable and quick action.

 

ES-100 - very plasticy feel to the keys and a little sluggish to me on note repeat, particularly when compared to the ES8.

 

I might place this at tie or above the ES-100. Tough call.

P-45 Graded hammer standard (GHS) keyboard.

 

Roland DS-88 - (Ivory Feel-G Keyboard with Escapement) action has a very shallow drop and takes some getting used to from the others and from acoustic grand actions. But the key path is nice and stable, I've played some upright pianos that feel this way (shallow drop). Key finish is nice. The RD-300NX has an Ivory Feel G - the official spec does not mention escapement. Maybe Jay can answer if these are identical. I'll say this though, definitely feels stable.

 

These last two are tough. I definitely did not immediately dig the short drop of the Ivory Feel-G Keyboard with Escapement. But the keys on the CGP-700 are eh.

 

CGP-700 - not the same key finish as the PX-5S, a little wobbly feel to the keys, more so than the 5S for some reason - as I believe all the Casios use essentially the same action. This was mounted flat, the 5S was at a tilt toward me on wall mounts - not sure if that's a factor. Other Casio's use a strange groove in the plastic to make it feel more wood like, I am not sure I care for it or not. I'd have tI live with it a bit.

 

---

 

No CP-4 on the floor.

Or CP-40. But we do have a CP-40 in a jazz band I play with occasionally. It does feel similar to a P series piano. I do like the 4 better, but neither was on the floor for side by side comparison so I can't throw them in the mix here.

 

Casio PX-560M is worth a play to.

[Dave Ferris]

Hey Jim. I only played the CP40 briefly when it and the CP4 first came out about 2.5 years ago. I found both the sound and action not really to my liking, especially when I was able to do a direct comparison with the CP4.

 

I like the P255 a lot. I wish it were 10-15 lbs. lighter. I'd definitely get one for quick rehearsals with singers, or something to bring along in the car to practice for an hour in the hotel on vacations.

 

It's a different area of Yamaha digitals then the CP line and I think more aimed at the home hobbyist, schools and the like. But I used the P120 for close to 10 years and it served me well.

 

I'm playing a P255 at the LAMA school in Pasadena one day a week in a class backing singers. I've always kind of poo-pooed the internal speakers in DPs for live playing but since we are playing at acoustic jazz level, the internals are definitely coming into play in that I'm getting some of that player feedback. And what seems to be extra resonance.

 

I haven't been able to directly compare the CP4 & P255's action next to each other but I'm getting around pretty darn good on this P255. It could be I'm hearing and feeling everything more solid with the internal speakers. But in reality it's probably more related to the simple fact that I'm spending more consistent time these days on the Chopin Etudes..

 

Part of me though still feels I'm more fluent on the CP4. But again I'd have to have the two right next to each other, with maybe my speakers and di/preamp, and in a playing environment to really be conclusive.

 

One very fine player I know that regularly gigs, much of it fairly high profile around town, loves his P255. He wouldn't trade it for anything he told me.

 

Check out the CP40 and see if you can deal with it. Again, it wasn't for me though. Play the P255 and see what you think. I do feel the CP4 CFX sample and overall instrument design is aimed more at the Pro player market. You could see if you can find a lightly used CP4 in the $1500 neighborhood. I don't think that's an unreasonable price point for a used one.

[jimkost2002]

Hi Dave, thanks for the input! Personally, I'm leaning more towards the P-255 after trying both the P-255 and Cp-4.... I love the action of the CP4 more but I'm liking the the P-255 sounds more..... The SamAsh where I tried them had the P-255 on an X-stand which, IMHO, made me feel the bottom of the keybed in a really distracting manner.

They also had a Casio PX 760 and CGP 760 both of which I surprisingly liked very much......

Which leads me to another question:

Does anyone know if the PX5s has they same action as these two?

[Mike Martin]

They also had a Casio PX 760 and CGP 760 both of which I surprisingly liked very much......

Which leads me to another question:

Does anyone know if the PX5s has they same action as these two?

 

Yes, the same action.

[ElmerJFudd]

Casio apparently uses the same action with different keys or key tops on all the Privias, maybe the entire line? The PX-5S key tops feel quite good. Also take a look at the PX-560M which shares a lot of sounds and action in common with the PX-5S but has a touch screen interface, internal amp and speakers, and expression pedal input.

 

Mike, what's not in the 560 that you do have in the 5S, in a nutshell?

 

Side note: P-255 had a great review in Keyboard Mag by Richard Leiter.

 

http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/yamaha-p-255-reviewed/50737

 

 

[jimkost2002]

Thanks Mike!

You are a gentlemen and a scholar!

And thanks, Elmer, you are always helpful!

[Mike Martin]

Casio apparently uses the same action with different keys or key tops on all the Privias, maybe the entire line? The PX-5S key tops feel quite good. Also take a look at the PX-560M which shares a lot of sounds and action in common with the PX-5S but has a touch screen interface, internal amp and speakers, and expression pedal input.

 

Mike, what's not in the 560 that you do have in the 5S, in a nutshell?

 

It is the same action across the entire Privia line. That also includes the CGP-700.

 

The PX-560 and PX-5S are similar in some ways and very different in others. The core engine and effects is the same so any individual sound would be identical on either instrument (with the exception of new stereo strings, drums and some guitars that are new for the PX-560).

 

The primary difference is how you can combine sounds and control them in real-time. The PX-560 keeps things simple with a single split point, 2 upper and 2 lower sounds. the PX-5S has no rules in the way you can use the 4 zones. Combine this with the physical controls that the PX-5S offers, its 4 programmable arpeggiators and more the PX-5S allows you to blend and manipulate sounds in some remarkable ways. The PX-5S controls are pre-configured with each of its "Stage Settings" while the PX-560's three knobs would have to be programmed for your specific use and saved in a registration.

 

I wrote an blog post on some of the difference which should help you choose one or the other.

The Definitive PX-5S and PX-560 Comparison

 

I hope this helps,

[ElmerJFudd]

 

Thank you!

[LX88]

I went to my local Guitar Center yesterday to compare DP's. I have been using a Yamaha P-35 for over a year now.... which is still my favorite in the at or under 25 lb. category.

 

In order to get the P-35 to sound good a mixer is required to pump some low end into it.

 

How good is the P-35 sample? I dumped my MOXF because to me the P-35 sample was superior to that, if that tells you anything.

 

Anyway, yesterday I decided I could live WITHOUT the CP-4. The CFX sample is just not making it for me after hearing the Montage. In the CP-4 I liked the CF sample. It's more like what I am used to hearing from Yamaha. I think my tastes have been influenced by their older samples.

 

What is interesting to me is how well the CP-35 ( It listed at 400 dollars new) stands up to a lot of what is out there in the over 2000 dollar category. I would take it over the Roland RD 800 in a heartbeat.

 

Not many people have heard the P-35. It has been replaced by the P-45 which is a step backward. The P-35 sounds very focused compared to it. The P-35 sample sounds a lot like the MOXF Concert Grand, but to me the 35 was more focused and has stronger bass.

 

Once again keep in mind I have to add some EQ to this. I boost the lows to about 3 o clock and back the mids to 10 or 11 o clock in my Yamaha mixer. I EQ all Yamahas weh I play them . The p-35 has no onboard EQ - which might be one reason it sounds as good as it does.

 

On the used market these are BARGAINS, and commonly sell for around 250 dollars if you can find one. They were only discontinued about a year ago. Mistake by Yamaha.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks LX88! I will keep my eyes peeled for one!

[Dave Ferris]

The CF sample is smoother on the ears, then the CFX sample, when just playing solo with phones or at more quiet volume levels with speakers. That's why I posted in that other recent thread that I prefer playing my CP5 at home with phones over the CP4.

 

But the CF can- depending on your monitors, volume level, musical context, room acoustics - somewhat disappear or wash out in a band scenario compared to the CFX.

 

And the CF sample in the CP4 sounds bit more focused and refined on the CP4 as compared to the CP5. Probably due to improved D/A converters I would assume. Still the CP5 is more fun for me to play, at least at home. Out on a gig, CP4 all the way.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks again for your sage advice, Dave!

[AnotherScott]

How good is the P-35 sample? I dumped my MOXF because to me the P-35 sample was superior to that, if that tells you anything.

Great that that worked out for you, but if someone needs more functionality and is hesitant to consider a basic DP in lieu of the generally more capable MOXF, if you get the flash card, there are a whole bunch of other piano samples you can load into the MOXF... free ones from Yamaha (S700, CP1), and paid ones from 3rd parties.

[LX88]

Sure... the MOXF has way more capability. It's very good overall. But I have posted about my frustrations with the learning curve previously.

 

I had the recent issue MOXF plug in board with the CP1 sample, and there were no directions on how to install it! It's just like my new cell phone. It came with no owner's manual. I am too stupid or too impatient to figure it out!

 

To me , the CP40 might be worth checking out but I just am not seeing them in the shops.

 

I know it sounds quirky that I like the P-35 but I spent a lot of time A/B ing it with the MOXF ( I had the 6, but I could easily trigger it with the 35) and the 35 holds its own in every way. The 35 has a very fat and warm low end and low mid.

 

I would have to go back and see how the P-35 compares to the P-85 and P-95. I know I like the 35 better than the 45, 105, 115 etc.

 

It seems to have pretty good action and.... it weighs 25 pounds! But pretty much it is just a digital piano and that's it. At least it has midi.

 

The P-35 sound -as I said - sounds very much like the MOXF Full Concert Grand - with a more focused low end.

[LX88]

I played a 255 yesterday. Great action, and the sample was pretty good though a bit bright for my taste.

 

I didn't care much for the Rhodes. Once again, the CP40 might be a good choice if you need that.

 

I really wish I could play a CP40. At this stage the CFX sample doesn't justify an extra 800 dollars, unless you need the wooden keys.

 

If the CP40 action is the same as the 255 I played, it would be very nice.

[WesG]

The wooden keys are awesome.

 

So are the extra pedal inputs, better EQ, XLR outs, extra sounds, and ability to layer+split.

[ElmerJFudd]

Kurz has a new bargain basement stage piano,

 

KA90 - is that a pitch wheel, a mod wheel, or assignable?

http://www.keyboardmag.com/Portals/2/StandardImage/014_key0816_Depts_NewGear-1.jpg

[DavidF]

What do people think of the S6 sample in the CP4? I play it every now and then (just for myself - not on stage) and it seems very quiet and much different in tone than the CFX and CF. I don't really have a good idea of what an S6 is supposed to sound like, except for some Youtube videos.

 

[Dave Ferris]

.

[DavidF]

I got to read your reply before it disappeared for some reason. A belated thanks.

 

[Dave Ferris]

I deleted it because it seemed there was too much OT. Best on your playing with the S6 or whatever you end up using on the CP4. The 3 different pianos on the CP4 are all perfectly valid depending on taste.

[AnotherScott]

Kurz has a new bargain basement stage piano,

 

KA90 - is that a pitch wheel, a mod wheel, or assignable?

Pitch. You can download the manual on the Kurz web site. Looks like it has some nice features for the price... especially "60-watt, 4-speaker stereo sound system (peak music power)" - I know, that's not RMS, and also wattage doesn't itself really tell you how loud something will be since so much of the volume also depends on speaker efficiency and other design parameters, but that's SO far above other lightweight slabs, I would be very surprised if it were not noticeably louder. That could make it a nice choice for ceremony/cocktail hour stuff and the like. Other than that, though, it wouldn't appear to be in the same league as most of what's being discussed in this thread.