Weber MASS Attenuator

[SEHpicker]

I'm looking at buying this attenuator and wondering if anyone here has experience with this particular one. Any information would be appreciated, especially regarding the "coneless speaker" aspect. Is this a good thing??

 

Here is what the info says:

 

"This is one of the rare, original Gerald Weber designed units. Unlike modern resistor-based attenuators this one has an actual cone-less speaker inside which accurately loads the power output section of your amp, and preserves your amp's full true tone at reduced volumes.

Hook it up between your guitar amplifier and speaker cabinet and you can have massive tone at bedroom volume levels. The DI output has adjustable tone and volume controls - great for recording or sending a "front of house" signal to your sound board."

 

 

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/bK0AAOSwu1VW5zYR/s-l1600.jpg

[Caevan O’Shite]

I'm looking at buying this attenuator and wondering if anyone here has experience with this particular one. Any information would be appreciated, especially regarding the "coneless speaker" aspect. Is this a good thing??

 

Here is what the info says:

 

"This is one of the rare, original Gerald Weber designed units. Unlike modern resistor-based attenuators this one has an actual cone-less speaker inside which accurately loads the power output section of your amp, and preserves your amp's full true tone at reduced volumes.

Hook it up between your guitar amplifier and speaker cabinet and you can have massive tone at bedroom volume levels. The DI output has adjustable tone and volume controls - great for recording or sending a "front of house" signal to your sound board."

 

 

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/bK0AAOSwu1VW5zYR/s-l1600.jpg

 

Well, that's the sort of technology that's inside my ancient GT Electronics Speaker Emulator, and that won't be for sale while I'm alive (meaning that I really dig it)... I can't speak more (pun not intended!) for the Weber unit, though...

[CEB]

I'm not sure which one that is. Maybe it is one of the original 50 watters. You need to know what it is rated and know what amp you are going to use it on.

 

How much do you plan on knocking your amp down. Ted always recommended an attenuator rated for 2x the output of your amp. If you wanted to use it on a 50 watt Boogie you should have a 100 watt attenuator.

 

If are just trying to take some edge off you amp like in my case, my 50watt Boogie has no audio taper in the quieter volumes. I just wanted to run my amp with the master volume on 4 and not break the stage mix. My DC-4 is either off or loud. Then you have a little more flexibility. I like Webers personally for my needs.

 

The Mass was designed by Ted. Whoever wrote that ad is confusing Ted Weber with the guy that writes tube amp books.

[SEHpicker]

Thanks Caev & CEB - it is rated at 25 watts - I would be using it in a Germino Masonette 25 (watt) amp - is there a danger of damaging my amplifier with the same wattage rating on both?

Also, what is the significance of the coneless speaker vs resistor based?

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

The Mass was designed by Ted. Whoever wrote that ad is confusing Ted Weber with the guy that writes tube amp books.

 

Good call! You're right.

 

Thanks Caev & CEB - it is rated at 25 watts - I would be using it in a Germino Masonette 25 (watt) amp - is there a danger of damaging my amplifier with the same wattage rating on both?

 

That depends on just how much you're pushing your amp. You might "get away with it" if you're not really pushing it that hard. It's a judgment call and a calculated risk.

 

Also, what is the significance of the coneless speaker vs resistor based?

 

Reactive loads tend to sound and- actually very importantly to many players- feel much more realistic and natural than resistive loads.

 

Case in point- GT Electronics Speaker Emulator = GOOD, Scholz Power Soak = SUCKED (IMHO)...

[SEHpicker]

Thanks Caev - that's what I wanted to know - cone-less = reactive load vs resistive load.

As far as the 25 watt on 25 watt concerns - I will research that a bit more - if anyone knows more about the wattage match up concerns please share.

Thanks

[CEB]

I would ask Myles or another amp guy about risks to the amp. If you are wanting to dime your amp then attenuate it down to bedroom levels you can possibly damage the attenuator. That is why Ted reccomended a 50 watt attenuator for a 25 watt amp. It depends on how much brake you want to put on the output.

 

 

My favorite attenuator is resistor base. I like the Rivera RockCrusher Recording but you should see the resistors inside that thing, they are ridiculous. It is also an $800 attenuator. The Power Soak by Tom Sholz was also resistor based and scary. I heard stories of those things causing fires. The Power soak used a bunch of little sandblock resistors and they were not heavy duty enough for what guys tried to use them for. It depends on serious the resistors inside the attenuator are.

 

The main tonal thing to be concerned about is the Mass will reduce your high end. Personally I like the Weber stuff.

[Caevan O’Shite]

My favorite attenuator is resistor base. I like the Rivera RockCrusher Recording but you should see the resistors inside that thing, they are ridiculous. It is also an $800 attenuator. The Power Soak by Tom Sholz was also resistor based and scary. I heard stories of those things causing fires. The Power soak used a bunch of little sandblock resistors and they were not heavy duty enough for what guys tried to use them for. It depends on serious the resistors inside the attenuator are.

 

The main tonal thing to be concerned about is the Mass will reduce your high end. Personally I like the Weber stuff.

 

I have a Rivera RockCrusher, too! Albeit the first, somewhat less expensive model, without the fancy 11-band graphic EQ for replicating various speakers (for the Direct output, NOT passed along to your active speaker). It is VERY heavy-duty and sounds and feels pretty damn good; a very well engineered piece of gear.

 

Note that the GT E Speaker Emulator that I cited above is NOT an attenuator, but it IS a reactive-load speaker-emulating DI device that connects to the speaker-output of a tube-amp to give you a line-level signal not unlike that of a close-miked vintage Celestion alnico speaker. Its original intent is to turn your tube-amp into a big honkin' direct preamp for recording or PA/monitors. It can be used by itself, or with or without actual speakers, in parallel or in series; and it could be used with an attenuator and speakers.

[Larryz]

Thanks Caev - that's what I wanted to know - cone-less = reactive load vs resistive load.

As far as the 25 watt on 25 watt concerns - I will research that a bit more - if anyone knows more about the wattage match up concerns please share.

Thanks

 

+1 on CEB's suggestion to Feel Free To Ask Myles...It would be interesting to see what he might suggest with regard to the 25/25 question.

 

ps. Never mind SEH, as I see you have already done so LOL!

[SEHpicker]

After a thumbs up from Myles, I bought the Weber attenuator.

I can't believe I never used one before. I've always had great tone from my Germino, but this is ridiculous.

This Weber is now a permanent part of my arsenal.

Can't stop playing...

[Caevan O’Shite]

After a thumbs up from Myles, I bought the Weber attenuator.

I can't believe I never used one before. I've always had great tone from my Germino, but this is ridiculous.

This Weber is now a permanent part of my arsenal.

Can't stop playing...

 

Glad to hear it!

 

I'm guessing that this Weber attenuator is a bit 'overrated' as regards its nominal wattage handling, hence Myles' assurance... Some of these gizmoes on the boutique market look awfully wimpy; I'd guess that this Weber is more reliably built... sorry if I was a bit pessimistic, I only had your best interests in mind...

[SEHpicker]

No worries Caev - this unit is big & heavy - built like a tank as they say. It's in like-new condition - Best $50 I ever spent.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Excellent; again, glad to hear it. Feel free to tell us more or even throw us some clips or vids of it in action!

 

My favorite attenuator is resistor base. I like the Rivera RockCrusher Recording...

 

For what it's worth, according to Rivera, the RockCrusher and RockCrusher Recording attenuators use some reactive-load technology (along with resistive-load circuitry? Or at least, resistors used to yield reactive-load characteristics) in their design. I like my RockCrusher quite a bit, too- I think it feels and sounds pretty reactive and authentically 'speaker-like'. I've been quite impressed by it. It does seem to impart a little dirt when trying to play with 'clean' toned settings, but most of the time, one would be using it for overdriven and distorted tones, anyway...

 

We built into the RockCrusher a reactive load network for proper speaker-amplifier interaction. Rather than a purely resistive load like many of the other power attenuators on the market, the Rock Crusher ensures that the amplifier and speaker see each other in a proper relationship of impedance and inductive/capacitive reactance. This translates to a superior tone, regardless of level.

 

Inside my old GT E Speaker Emulator, there is what appears to be a voice-coil type 'motor' that the amp drives in a manner similar to the way it would a speaker; it even sounds like a tiny, tiny little Celestion-loaded Marshall cab if you listen up-close while playing!

[SEHpicker]

Excellent; again, glad to hear it. Feel free to tell us more or even throw us some clips or vids of it in action!

 

Yes I need to do some recording - I am really digging the tones with this - no pedals or effects - guitar straight into the amp with the Weber between the amp and speaker cab. Sustain for days.

All I really need is a little reverb/delay and I think it's a done deal. Also, this set up makes the volume control on my guitars so much more sensitive - dial it back a little and get wonderful, rich clean tones without losing too much volume. Saweeet!

[Caevan O’Shite]

...I am really digging the tones with this - no pedals or effects - guitar straight into the amp with the Weber between the amp and speaker cab. Sustain for days.

 

Also, this set up makes the volume control on my guitars so much more sensitive - dial it back a little and get wonderful, rich clean tones without losing too much volume. Saweeet!

 

Mmmmmmmmm. THAT'S where I live in Electric Guitar Land... !

 

[CEB]

SEH, How did the Weber workout? I'm considering picking up a 50 watt Mini Mass.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I picked up a Rivera RockCrusher attenuator last year, and I like it; one very good thing about it is that it's VERY heavy-duty, almost 'overbuilt' and should prove to be very durable and reliable, probably to the point of never having any issues whatsoever. And just last night a friend was singing the praises of the Tone King Iron Man attenuator, which, according to him, is the be-all end-all best and only worthy attenator out there. I have not yet tried any of the Weber MASS attenuator line, though.

[CEB]

My local shop is a Rivera dealer. They have the Rock Crushers. I played with a guy who used the Rock Crusher Recording models on his 2 35 watt Train Wrecks. It sounded awesome.

 

I was looking to do something less expensive. My first thought was to use my 20 watt VHT. The reverb is awful so I would need a reverb pedal, tubes, and upgrade some of the components and I still probably won't like it as much as my old Boogie. I can get the Weber for about the same price as a reverb pedal.

 

The Boogie is either loud or off. Boogie put a resistor across the Master Volume pot that causes this. Mike Bendinelli at Boogie told me it was fine to disconnect the pot so I did and that gives the amp audio taper down to zero. I found out why Boogie put that pot there. The amp sound terrible below 3. I just want to be able to run my amp with the Master on 3 or 4.

 

But my Boogie seems to have lost a little something. I think I'm still running the same preamp tubes that came in it in 91. I'm going to replace V1, V4, and V6 with new AX7s. Those are all the ones that impact the clean channel. All I use is the clean channel. I set the amp for clean and get my dirt from pedals.

[Caevan O’Shite]

But my Boogie seems to have lost a little something. I think I'm still running the same preamp tubes that came in it in 91. I'm going to replace V1, V4, and V6 with new AX7s. Those are all the ones that impact the clean channel. All I use is the clean channel. I set the amp for clean and get my dirt from pedals.

 

Talk with Doug at Doug's Tubes (Myles Rose recommended him to me, and he's been GREAT!). Tell him anything and everything about the amp, the tubes that were/are in it, the guitars and pedals you use with it, what you want and need from it, what you feel it's "lost", and he'll help you get EXACTLY what you need for any and all given tube-locations in your amp.

 

Don't discount the impact of the driver/"phase-inverter" tube, and the output-tubes, on the sound of the clean channel. They- especially that driver/"phase-inverter"- can have quite an impact on your overall tone, feel, and response!

 

Preamp tubes tend to last a long time in general; it might not even be one of them!

 

The driver/"phase-inverter" can a account for loss of overtones and a change in character as it wears out along with the out-put-tubes over time; it can cause phase-cancellations and/or perceived reinforcement alike for various frequencies, sometimes even resulting in what can seem like "dead-spots" on your guitar's fretboard that are actually just the failing tube! Ask Doug whether a "Matched"/"Balanced" phase-inverter tube wuld benefit your amp. I've found that V1, the driver/phase-inverter, and output-tubes

[CEB]

I'm running the same PI since 1991. It is time to change it.

 

I'm really easy on tubes. I've always used nice Fender like cleans. Never went for much power tube distortion. I get my dirt from the floor. Back in 91 my Jem into a Rat into the Clean DC-5 sounded like a beast. I'm thinking about digging all the old stuff back out and taking the Ibenez off eBay and compare it to the Wampler and Sparkle Drive Mod stuff I'm using now. I retired the Rat because it fail twice on gigs. But It sounds better than the new Rats. Not sure why they would change the circuit. Maybe they use different op amps.

[CEB]

Yesterday I replaced the phase inverter cleaned all the pots and reversed a master volume mod I should have never done. My Boogie sounds like it should again.

 

Told my amp man I want an attenuator to dial back the volume a little. I told him the 100 watt Weber was in my budget. He didn't like that. He is not a fan. He wants the to build an attenuator based on a Kendrick design that he likes better that will dissipate heat better and will mount inside the combo with no problem. He thinks the cost will be about the same. Next week he should let me know what the cost will be for sure. My concern is turn around time.

 

It is based on this.

 

http://www.kendrick-amplifiers.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KOS&Product_Code=KEN-04Decrescendo&Category_Code=04

 

[CEB]

http://www.hearditontheweb.com/images/pdf/attenuator.pdf

[Larryz]

I like the idea of having a separate unit like the one in the OP as I would mainly use it at home and could use it on my other amps as well. I would throw it in the gig bag if it works well as a DI with the volume and tone adjustments for going direct to the PA. Thus, if the amp breaks down you have a back up. I was looking at a Laney amp with a built in attenuator, so forget everything I've just said LOL! I mostly play clean and I can just turn the guitar and/or amp down so I have never really needed one...let us know how it works out if you go with the built-in!

[CEB]

I'm having a unit based on the Kendrick Decrescendo built. We are going to over build it and heat sink it really well. With it mounted inside the cabinet and permanently connect it should be no hassles. The unit is fully bypassable. There should be no high end loss since I am attenuating less the 15 db. Probably keep it set for -6db. I should be receiving a new guitar this month. I'm just spending all kinds of money on guitar stuff this month.

[Larryz]

@ CEB, Don't forget to share that new guitar with us! Congrats!