Buzz killer?

[SEHpicker]

I've done everything I can think of to kill that last little annoying buzz that my rig puts out when in idle mode - but it is still there sometimes depending on the gig. It's not in my amp (Germino) or pedals (Boss GT-10) or cables (George's) because in my studio everything is dead quiet. I believe it is coming from the various inconsistent power sources at gigs. We do use power conditioners for our amps & PA - but sometimes there's still a little buzz - white noise really with an occasional crackle & pop - surely there must be a filter device that won't affect tone made just for this? Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

[J. Dan]

If it is from ground loops, make sure everything is plugged into the same outlet. Sometimes different outlets can have different ground potentials due to resistance in the ground wiring or connections.

 

Another likely culprit is noise being generated by dimmers, Fluorescent lights, neon signs (like beer lights), etc. Better shielding can help reduce EMF from some of these devices - including foil shield in the electronics compartment of your guitar, and cables that have a 100% shield (some cables only offer anywhere from 50-90%).

 

If the noise is coming through the AC line itself, it can be difficult to eliminate. You can get into line conditioners and isolation transformers, but that starts getting pricey in a hurry.

 

First step is to figure out the source of the noise. If the noise comes from plugging 2 devices together but goes away when you unplug, it's ground loop. If moving around with your guitar or moving the cable changes the level of the noise, it's shielding. If your amp sits there making noise with nothing plugged into it, it's AC noise.

[SEHpicker]

Thanks Dan - I will look into your suggestions. My initial feeling is that I might need an isolation transformer - but as you said - very pricey.

We are very careful about what is in the power loop - fans, lights etc. run on a separate circuit from the power conditioners that power our amps & PA system.

If an isolation transformer is the solution I'll have to decide whether it's worth spending several hundred dollars to fix - or just live with it.

[Scott Fraser]

What are you using for power conditioners?

[hurricane hugo]

maybe something like this? http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/DI-Boxes/HD400/p/P0387

 

I have an earlier version of this. Cost me what - maybe $30? Does the job; then again, I'm not running a chain of footpedal effects, either.

[SEHpicker]

@ Scott - We're using Furman M8D x 2

[Caevan O’Shite]

Are you using any pedals or devices on a daisy-chained power-supply? Some, especially digital ones, really need their own power supply, be it a separate wall-wart or an isolated supply from something like the Voodoo lab Pedal Power line... My Strymon pedals, in particular, introduce a weird, electronic 'hash' if daisy-chained with other pedals on my 1 Spot PS, so I use a Voodoo Lab 'DIGITAL' Power Supply, or the individual wall-warts that came with them...

[SEHpicker]

maybe something like this? http://www.music-group.com/Categories/Behringer/Signal-Processors/DI-Boxes/HD400/p/P0387

 

I have an earlier version of this. Cost me what - maybe $30? Does the job; then again, I'm not running a chain of footpedal effects, either.

 

Thanks HH - I will look into that unit - can't beat the price if it works - which makes me wonder, if Behringer is putting something like this out - maybe there are others to check out as well??

[SEHpicker]

Are you using any pedals or devices on a daisy-chained power-supply? Some, especially digital ones, really need their own power supply, be it a separate wall-wart or an isolated supply from something like the Voodoo lab Pedal Power line... My Strymon pedals, in particular, introduce a weird, electronic 'hash' if daisy-chained with other pedals on my 1 Spot PS, so I use a Voodoo Lab 'DIGITAL' Power Supply, or the individual wall-warts that came with them...

 

I'm using a Boss GT-10 and Digitech Harmonyman. Both have their own power supply.

[Larryz]

Try keeping a list of where it occurs. I'm guessing different clubs and venues may be the reason it happens at gigs and not at home. When it happens, that's the best place to work with the problem(s). Sometimes you just have to live with it as the club may have all sorts of crap that can cause a buzz like those J.Dan mentioned. You can also pick up a buzz from your own band equipment that you are not combined with at home.

 

Is the noise just coming from your amp or is it coming over the PA too? Try unplugging your band mates one at a time. Try a different guitar with a different cord. Try going direct with no pedal(s). Try bringing your own extension power cord and filter strip, try no strip and go to a different outlet. I'm sure you've already tried all these ideas.

 

Try putting a noise gate pedal in-line. Having a ground lift switch can solve the problem if going to a PA. Anyway, good luck with it and keep us posted!

 

 

[SEHpicker]

Try keeping a list of where it occurs. I'm guessing different clubs and venues may be the reason it happens at gigs and not at home. When it happens, that's the best place to work with the problem(s). Sometimes you just have to live with it as the club may have all sorts of crap that can cause a buzz like those J.Dan mentioned. You can also pick up a buzz from your own band equipment that you are not combined with at home.

 

Is the noise just coming from your amp or is it coming over the PA too? Try unplugging your band mates one at a time. Try a different guitar with a different cord. Try going direct with no pedal(s). Try bringing your own extension power cord and filter strip, try no strip and go to a different outlet. I'm sure you've already tried all these ideas.

 

Try putting a noise gate pedal in-line. Having a ground lift switch can solve the problem if going to a PA. Anyway, good luck with it and keep us posted!

 

Yes Larry - I've tried pretty much all the things you have suggested. I'm thinking that the various questionable power sources we have to use is the culprit - so some kind of in-line filter or isolation transformer might be a good place to start.

[Scott Fraser]

@ Scott - We're using Furman M8D x 2

 

Yeah, that's a surge/spike protector, but doesn't really have the ability to filter AC mains noise. In my studio I used to have the Furman predecessor to that & I had continual AC line noise issues, with buzzes & crackles from somebody else on the block running an arc welder, as well as refrigerator line noise from my house upstairs, & other hums. The Furman did nothing to stop any of that. It didn't even protect a synth one day from a big spike. The solution was an expensive AC balanced line iso transformer from Equi-Tech. This is a very heavy rack unit which isolates the outputs completely from the input & balances the power, just like a balanced mic signal. Any noise induced onto a balanced line is canceled at the receiving end. I have had no AC line noise in my studio for 15 years after this upgrade. No noise at all, in summer when everybody has air conditioners on, in winter with heavy lightning storms all around, no refrigerator clicks & hums, just absolutely silent AC mains current. The most worthwhile $1500 I've spent on pro audio gear. I wouldn't want to travel with it, weighs maybe 50-60 pounds, in a 3 rackspace package. Sorry, those Furmans just don't do anything about line noise. Furman does have a balanced power isolation transformer, equivalent to my Equi-Tech, I believe.

[SEHpicker]

@ Scott - We're using Furman M8D x 2

 

Yeah, that's a surge/spike protector, but doesn't really have the ability to filter AC mains noise. In my studio I used to have the Furman predecessor to that & I had continual AC line noise issues, with buzzes & crackles from somebody else on the block running an arc welder, as well as refrigerator line noise from my house upstairs, & other hums. The Furman did nothing to stop any of that. It didn't even protect a synth one day from a big spike. The solution was an expensive AC balanced line iso transformer from Equi-Tech. This is a very heavy rack unit which isolates the outputs completely from the input & balances the power, just like a balanced mic signal. Any noise induced onto a balanced line is canceled at the receiving end. I have had no AC line noise in my studio for 15 years after this upgrade. No noise at all, in summer when everybody has air conditioners on, in winter with heavy lightning storms all around, no refrigerator clicks & hums, just absolutely silent AC mains current. The most worthwhile $1500 I've spent on pro audio gear. I wouldn't want to travel with it, weighs maybe 50-60 pounds, in a 3 rackspace package. Sorry, those Furmans just don't do anything about line noise. Furman does have a balanced power isolation transformer, equivalent to my Equi-Tech, I believe.

Wow - that sounds like the solution Scott - except for that $1500 price tag.

I'm hoping there is an economical trade-off that will work well enough. BTW There are no buzzes coming from the PA - just my rig.

[Scott Fraser]

@ Scott - We're using Furman M8D x 2

 

Yeah, that's a surge/spike protector, but doesn't really have the ability to filter AC mains noise. In my studio I used to have the Furman predecessor to that & I had continual AC line noise issues, with buzzes & crackles from somebody else on the block running an arc welder, as well as refrigerator line noise from my house upstairs, & other hums. The Furman did nothing to stop any of that. It didn't even protect a synth one day from a big spike. The solution was an expensive AC balanced line iso transformer from Equi-Tech. This is a very heavy rack unit which isolates the outputs completely from the input & balances the power, just like a balanced mic signal. Any noise induced onto a balanced line is canceled at the receiving end. I have had no AC line noise in my studio for 15 years after this upgrade. No noise at all, in summer when everybody has air conditioners on, in winter with heavy lightning storms all around, no refrigerator clicks & hums, just absolutely silent AC mains current. The most worthwhile $1500 I've spent on pro audio gear. I wouldn't want to travel with it, weighs maybe 50-60 pounds, in a 3 rackspace package. Sorry, those Furmans just don't do anything about line noise. Furman does have a balanced power isolation transformer, equivalent to my Equi-Tech, I believe.

Wow - that sounds like the solution Scott - except for that $1500 price tag.

I'm hoping there is an economical trade-off that will work well enough. BTW There are no buzzes coming from the PA - just my rig.

 

I know Equi-Tech makes smaller versions for less current capability. There's a guitarist here in LA who brings a portable, floor unit Equi-Tech when he does sessions here. I got a mid size 1600 watt unit in order to power everything in my studio, which at the time included a big mixer, tons of outboard gear & many tape decks.

[J. Dan]

Tripp-Lite has some isolation transformers, line conditioners, and automatic voltage correction devices...some that combine features. I'd bet for a few hundred you could get something decent. For instance for I think around $300 or so, you can get the LCR-2400 which is a 20A rackmount that does voltage correction and filtering. Any of that stuff is going to be heavy, though, due to the transformer.

 

But again, don't jump the gun. Make sure you isolate the source of the buzz first. I'd say one of the biggest pieces of information will be if the amp makes noise with nothing plugged in. If not, work backwards...plug the pedalboard into the amp, with no guitar plugged in, then plug in the guitar last....see where the noise starts.

[Scott Fraser]

The problem with voltage correctors is they use a tapped transformer. When voltage exceeds or drops below the target range, the device jumps to the next higher or lower output tap, & there's a click when it makes the transition. Voltage correction is not generally the most important consideration. More crucial is isolating the load from the source, & that's where the money should go.

[J. Dan]

The problem with voltage correctors is they use a tapped transformer. When voltage exceeds or drops below the target range, the device jumps to the next higher or lower output tap, & there's a click when it makes the transition. Voltage correction is not generally the most important consideration. More crucial is isolating the load from the source, & that's where the money should go.

 

True, though some (usually the ones that include UPS features) instead of using a tapped transformer, use essentially a power inverter....convert the line to DC and then generate the proper voltage with a power inverter. Again, to you point, those include unneeded features, so you're probably right that all the money should go towards filtering/isolation.

[SEHpicker]

The Germino is very quiet. There is no hum in my studio when everything is on. Same exact rig I use on stage.

 

Talked to my bass player a little while ago - he said he had a isolation transformer in his attic that was given to him but he never used - he's bringing it to our next rehearsal.

I'll let you all know how that works out.

[p90jr]

I never gig without one of these, but that started because I kept getting shocked in clubs when I'd sing and eliminating hum was a pleasant side-benefit.

 

http://www.ebtechaudio.com/humxdes.html

 

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/Ebtech_HUM_X_Hum_X_Ground_Loop_1232878824000_365781.jpg

[p90jr]

EBech has some other Hum Eliminator products... I don't think any of them are very expensive (I got the HumX on Amazon for $50, new).

[J. Dan]

Looking at the Furman specs, you're unit is rated 23dB of noise attenuation, which is not much compared to other models. For instance, the PL-8C specifications are:

Noise Attenuation: 10 dB @ 10 kHz, 40 dB @ 100 kHz, 50 dB @ 500 kHz

 

THIS isolation transformer from Tripp-lite provides 33-65dB normal mode; >80dB common mode.

 

That LCR-2400 I mentioned (that adds the AVR you don't need and to Scott's point, uses a multi-tap transformer that would click if it kicked in) is specified: EMI / RFI AC Noise Suppression 80 dB

[Scott Fraser]

The problem with voltage correctors is they use a tapped transformer. When voltage exceeds or drops below the target range, the device jumps to the next higher or lower output tap, & there's a click when it makes the transition. Voltage correction is not generally the most important consideration. More crucial is isolating the load from the source, & that's where the money should go.

 

True, though some (usually the ones that include UPS features) instead of using a tapped transformer, use essentially a power inverter....convert the line to DC and then generate the proper voltage with a power inverter. Again, to you point, those include unneeded features, so you're probably right that all the money should go towards filtering/isolation.

 

I'd trust a voltage inverter even less. Until you get into the expensive range, the output is not a good pure sine wave at all, which means there are harmonics on the line. Not good for audio.

[SEHpicker]

Hey p90jr - looks like that company has several solutions for eliminating hum.

I will look further into their products.

Thanks

 

[SEHpicker]

THIS isolation transformer from Tripp-lite provides 33-65dB normal mode; >80dB common mode.

 

There is a used one on Ebay for $100. Thats got me thinking about replacing the Furmans with the Tripp-Lites.

[SEHpicker]

Thanks guys for your helpful (as usual) insights and suggestions. Now I have some good options to check out. I'll let you know of any significant results.

 

Thanks!!!