Flats on 60's rosewood Jazz Bass: when/why, and what type?

[Mark Schmieder]

I went thoroughly through all my basses last night, without plugging in, to really get to know their differences as deeply as possibly ahead of some recording sessions and also to decide what role my rosewood J-Bass should serve (it's gorgeous and fun to play but hasn't been used live yet or even much in the studio).

 

My P-Bass was so transformed by going to flats that it's now my main live bass, even though only 4 strings, and gets used a lot for recordings as well. In fact, the tone knob is actually useful since going to flats, and it's so even that I'm no longer certain I eventually want to upgrade from a split pickup to the early 50's non-split pickup (which was more even tonally) -- that would mean switching basses (maybe a new Mike Lull passive bass now that he makes them in vintage style).

 

I have little experience with J-Basses anyway; lots of other dual pickup basses, of course. I measured, and found my other three dual pickup basses more or less have 70's J-bridge spacing vs. my Select Jazz with 60's bridge PUP spacing. I ruled out the AVRI 1974 J-Bass after trying it again on SAT in SF as its curvature is extreme and it is non-responsive unplugged. So, given that my Yamaha BB-Bass with P/J hybrid configuration is also rosewood with rounds -- though super-aggressive compared to the Select Jazz (similar to a '64 J-Bass) -- I'm wondering if maybe I should distinguish the J-Bass more by putting flats on it.

 

Right now, I am not terribly happy with the Fender strings on it. I kept them on at first because it seemed tonally balanced, but it's a bit too bright at any setting. I'm thinking standard D'addario XL's might be the answer, but first want to learn more about when and why people use flats on a rosewood fretboard J-Bass as my understanding is that this is rarely done and that flats are generally used on harder woods like maple and ebony.

 

On my bus connection to work today, the bus driver had on the local R&B station, and I could tell a lot of different basses were being used and that a large number of them were finger-style vs. plectrum, but in the context of a mix and a lot of heavy production, and especially on a bus with a crappy radio, I can't pretend to be able to tell what strings were used, what wood was on the fretboard, etc.

 

I figure there are people who got into bass at a younger age than I did, who have a lot of historical perspective on the history of J-Basses and which configurations have been the most successful in the studio and for what styles. For me it's all trial and error at the moment, and I need to reduce the error part due to a tight schedule on some upcoming production work where I am going to be handing basses to other players and producing and guiding them vs. playing myself.

[jeremy c]

Joe Osborn plays a Fender Jazz with flatwounds. I think he had the same set on for over 25 years. They were probably Fender strings. His studio work was unsurpassed.

 

I had mine on for ten years. I still have them.

 

In the old days, there were only flatwound strings. You really only had two choice for a long time: Fender strings or La Bella strings.

[jcadmus]

I've got D'Addario Chrome flats on mine. I'm a D'Addario guy -- sound good, last a long time, very consistent, stay in tune -- and these don't disappoint.

[wraub]

Another vote for Chromes here, I have them on all of my basses w/ flats. The set on my RW board 60s Jazz has been on for 4 years or so. Still sound good, in fact I think they're just breaking in.

 

IMW flats are ok for any board wood, regardless. They don't dig in to the board like rounds or even half rounds.

 

 

[kenfxj]

La Bella flats were only the second or third brand of flats I ever tried and I love them so much I wouldn't bother with another brand.

[Mark Schmieder]

Thanks; good feedback here. Joe Osborn in particular is one of my heroes but I just wasn't sure if the J-Bass was used much in studios until the CBS era when the fretboard went to maple and a closer bridge pickup.

 

Good to know that the 60's J-Bass with a further pickup spacing and rosewood fretboard has proven itself in the studio as well, and long enough ago that flats were the way, as well as flats not causing problems with softer rosewood (I thought that having a larger surface contact area might be an issue).

 

I have an extra set of LaBella's and could try those, or I could order D'addario XL's (if I don't have an extra set for my P-Bass that I could try first), or just see if a local store has them in stock this week (I find that GC biases towards Ernie Ball Slinky strings in terms of how well stocked they are).

 

I think it makes sense to run this experiment, as the J-Bass is very articulate but, like my P-bass when it had rounds, isn't as tonally balanced as I would like. If I need the roundwound sound on a dual pickup bass, I can always use my Yamaha or Thunderbird (the Dingwall is likely going up for sale soon; the Thunderbird also hasn't yet earned its keep so its sex appeal may not be enough to keep it in my collection).

 

Now that Mike Lull makes passive basses -- even some in five-string models -- I may eventually move towards a maple J-bass fiver from him and/or even a "trad 54 non-split P-bass PUP" 4-stringer, but I would have to bring what I have with me and go to Gelb or the North Bay store (I forget its name) to do a direct comparison and hope they're strung up with flats.

 

For now though, it sounds like putting flats on my rosewood 60's J-Bass will do the most to differentiate all of the basses in my current collection and better provide a frame of reference for recording choices.

 

I could start with re-recording parts on the songs I've used the "J" for so far, and get an idea of how things sit, as all of them are in the R&B genre and so far that is where I have found the J-Bass to be king (though P-Basses often work well in that genre as well). I don't mean slapping; just standard soul/r&b driving songs; sometimes ballads.

[Wally Malone]

I use flats on my fretless mim jazz and DM Blue Steels on my fretted jazz. I haven't tried the flats on my fretted since I use the Roland V-Bass and GK3B pickup and thought the rounds would be better. Of course I'm not sure that is true since I never tried flats on it. As Jeremy stated above we all used flats on our Fenders back in the day.

 

Wally

[Basshappi]

I have flats on 2 basses, both are passive instruments;

Yamaha BB400, rosewood board, reverse P pup - TI Jazz Flats

SX Jazz, maple board, Jazz pups 70's spacing - Chromes

 

 

[Groove Mama]

I'm glad you asked this question, Mark. I decided to hold off on making any changes to my Geddy -- strings or pickups -- til I get to know it better. I hadn't thought about putting flats on it, only because I already have flats on my P, but I'll keep that thought in mind as well.

[Mark Schmieder]

I've just listened to a bunch of YouTube videos, and the results are consistent enough that I think some reasonable judgment can be made from them.

 

Unfortunately, much of the labeling is incorrect at that site, unless there are strings that are no longer made that some people are demoing.

 

The ones that sounded the most even and studio-ready are labeled "GHS Black Nylon Flatwound" but I can find no evidence that company has ever made such a string. I deeply disliked all the tape wound demos I heard (and hated the feel of the ones that came with my fretless, which I changed right away), such as the black nylon tape wound XL from D'addario.

 

I did a little research and found that Rotosound had the first black nylon flat wound (true flat wound; not tape wound) and that McCartney used them on the Get Back sessions as well as Entwistle using them on early Who recordings. The demos I found sounded very balanced and dynamic.

 

A safer bet might be the GHS Precision flat wound, where there's no ambiguity of what I was hearing and the correct labeling as well as sufficient cases to judge from. I felt these strings had a better tonal balance on the J-Bass than most others; whereas there are a larger number of string sets that sounded good to me on the P-Bass.

 

I really dislike how the LaBella Deep Talkin' Bass strings sound on the J-Bass if the demos can be believed, Not tonally balanced; too deep and boomy. I like them on either a fretted or fretless P-Bass though. Must have something to do with the pickups and especially where they are placed. They scoppy the sound, which benefits the P-bass but is the opposite of what most J-Basses need (in my opinion).

 

The bottom line is that I am leaning towards the GHS Precision Flats, unless I can become more confident that the ones I like slightly better are the Rotosound Black Silk and that they are flat wound not tape wound (can't stand how tape wound feels, regardless of how it sounds on any given bass).

[Mark Schmieder]

Groove mama, for what it's worth, it seems from the video demos that flats on a "P" are quite different from flats on a "J" and therefore not redundant. I'm convinced it's due to the radically different pickup positions on those two bass designs and how that affects the overall frequency curve.

[Mark Schmieder]

To summarize, I'd characterize the GHS Stainless Steel Precision Flatwounds as having that classic 60's/70's Motown/Stax sound, and the RotoSound Black Nylon 88's to be the perfect match for Dub/Reggae/Ska and also 60's British Invasion.

 

Tight pick! Different sounds and I need both. :-)

 

Maybe I'll put the RotoSounds on my Thunderbird Bass and the GHS string on the "J".

[Mark Schmieder]

I found a link for the GHS Black Nylon set after all, and they are tape wound, not flat wound like the two YouTube demos say:

 

http://www.8thstreet.com/GHS-GHS-3060-4-Black-Tapewound-Black-Nylon-Tape-Wound-Bass-4-String-Set-pc30963.8th

 

Too bad they don't have the Precision Flatwound strings at that site, given their current sale (which ends tomorrow).

[Mark Schmieder]

Not too surprisingly, I have found completely opposing opinions on just about everything. For instance, one person says the GHS Precisions are the best recording strings ever, being articulate and completely balanced so they sit perfectly in the mix. Another person says they're the worst recording strings ever, lacking any mids and thus getting buried.

 

What is obvious to me -- and has been for awhile -- is that some strings work better than others on different basses. To a certain degree P's that follow similar specs (especially pickups) and J's as well, may follow a general trend, but there are probably way too many variables even in that narrow a category.

 

I'm going ahead and ordering the GHS M3050 set as it is the closest in tension to what I normally use. If they don't work out well on the "J", I can always try them on the Thunderbird, and of course I can always swap the LaBella's just for kicks as I have an extra set, and break out the new set for my fretless if I also like them on the "J".

 

From what I've heard and read, the Fender flat wound set is slightly more balanced on the Jazz Bass than the similar D'addario XL Chromes, in case I ever go that route.

[Wally Malone]

The flats on my MIM Jazz fretless are Fender.

 

Wally

[Imogene]

I think everybody has an opinion and promotes what they use and like. While I'm pretty convinced that all roundwounds are the same (at least to me), flats aren't. I like the TIs and have them on my J bass. I like the way they sound and they make me play better because they are a bit lower in tension and my playing dynamics have improved because of that but they are so 'musical' sounding to me. They are just different, don't really know how to describe it.

 

I scored an 08 P5 off of Ebay a couple years ago and it had the Chromes on it according to the seller when I contacted him later to ask. They are still on, can't bring myself to change anything on that bass, it sounds fantastic. But the chromes are noticeably stiffer.

[b5pilot]

I have chromes on my p bass and I like the feel so I put some on the MiM jazz bass. I've had them on for a couple of months now and since it isn't my main player the strings still sound kind of bright which on a jazz bass sounds ok. Fairly well balanced and because the tension is a little higher than rounds I can dial in the action pretty low. I've tried the Fender flats and they were ok.

 

I would like to try some other brands though like the GHS or LaBella. I've heard those brands have a warmer tone than chromes. Chromes after they break in do have a pretty warm tone though.

[Mark Schmieder]

I used TI flats for many years during the decade that the Godin Acousticbass A4F (original version, more unique and less like an upright) was my primary bass (and my longest-owned fretless). They made a huge difference on that bass, and I tried quite a few.

 

For some reason, when I tried TI's on either P-Bass or J-Bass fretless designs -- even after a setup to correct for tension -- I got the opposite of mellow, subtle, and nuanced. But again, this was only on three to five different basses and I don't think they were very good examples of the form (all were sold quickly in sequence until I settled on the Warmoth that was a lucky find in the local GC's used department).

 

I've never tried the TI flats on a fretted bass AFAICR.

[Nicklab]

When I got my Roadworn Jazz bass it was strung with a set of D'Addario Chromes flatwounds. And I liked the tone quite a bit! I think it definitely works for those situations where you want a set of flats, and they play well with both fingers and a pick (plus some muting).

 

The reason I changed the strings to rounds? That has to do with the number of instruments I had at the time and making the most of those configurations. So I put roundwounds on the Jazz because I wanted the growl that you can get on a Jazz with rounds.

 

Now that I have my American Std Jazz 5 and the Road worn 4 string? I may put a set of TI Jazz flats on the Roadworn Jazz, because I will ABSOLUTELY be keeping roundwounds on the 5 string Jazz. The reason for the TI's? Well, I've seen nothing but rave reviews about them here and elsewhere for a long time. And I've got a set of Chromes on my project P-Bass. Having something a little different for the P-Bass and the Jazz bass will be cool.

[Mark Schmieder]

The flats arrived today but I just got home from work (typical these days, unfortunately). I'm hoping to have enough time before my gig tomorrow to first thoroughly work with the rounds, replace the strings, and be thorough in my evaluation on a number of originals as well as a representative and versatile collection of covers.

[Mark Schmieder]

Gotta run to my gig right now, but initial impression is that the flats may have made things worse, for finger style, as it still sounds a bit tonally unbalanced. Maybe the setup this week will help with that.

 

Using a plectrum was an eye opener, regardless of pickup blend, tone, or pick position near bridge or neck. Lots of pluckiness and better than the "P" bass in that regard. This will be THE bass for certain types of material, if I keep flats on it.

 

I'm going to break it in for a few hours at tomorrow's gig, so that the strings are in better shape for some studio recordings where the truth will out. Hopefully I'll have time for some initial comparisons tomorrow though, before the gig.

[Mark Schmieder]

After three one hour sets, the verdict is mixed. The Jazz rosewood with flats did best on 60's r&b and Straight Ahead jazz standards. It did poorly compared to the P-bass maple with flats, on modern jazz and fusion.

 

We didn't do a lot of material that we normally play tonight due to our guitarist not making it, so it's hard to make a final judgment yet. I would say overall though that the P-Bass slices through the mix without dominating, whereas the J-Bass doesn't sit very well in the mix unless the other elements are very focused like piano and the like. When my bandleader used organ, it was a mess.

 

The J and P still sound totally different from each other, and even with the middle pickup only (which many call the neck pickup even though it's nowhere near the neck), the J doesn't sound like the P.

 

I'm starting to wonder whether the 70's J with maple and the closer bridge pickup is just a better design, and whether that's the one we most often hear in recordings, but have also heard that the P dominated on over 90% of recordings until the late 80's to thereabouts and then the J dominated for a decade or two until recently the P has gone back to being almost monopolistic in the studio.

 

I do love playing my J when I'm alone, but tomorrow night (I need to give my hands a rest after three nights in a row of 5-6 hours of playing) I'll compare against the few recordings I did with the rounds on and see if it's better or worse now. I hadn't yet used a pick on the J until putting the flats on and thought it sounded horrible with a pick until that switch. Now I need to compare to the P Bass in that mode and see what I think.

 

Also though, I am getting setup adjustments made on Tuesday to account for different string tension, and it's the E and A strings that bug me at the moment so maybe it just needs to be rebalanced.

 

The problem at the gig today was that no pickup blend or tone setting really produced a focused tone that properly supported organ plus trumpet. It sounded dark no matter what, even though when soloed it would sound too bright unless cutting the tone.

 

This is what I have noticed all along, no matter what changes I make in my playing style or in the instrument itself.

 

It may be that my five string Yamaha BB-1025x with P-Bass middle pickup and J-Bass bridge pickup (70's spacing) but rosewood fretboard, is all the "J" I need, but I think it will take more time as I haven't yet pushed this bass on reggae, soul, funk, or even straight rock music or anything with vocals and/or guitar.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention an important point, which is that I only bring my bass amp to outdoor gigs as the jazz combo leader doesn't want any of us to take up much space at the indoor gigs. So I was playing through the Fender Excelsior Pro Edition, which has a 15" Eminence speaker and no tone controls and is voiced for Baritone Guitar (which is what I bought it for), Electric Mandolin (which is also what I bought it for -- though that sounds better on my guitar amps), and Accordion (w/ piezo).

[jeremy c]

are any of these gigs open to the public? if so, I'll swing by and give a listen.

[Mark Schmieder]

Jeremy, only the twice-a-month gig at the gay club in Walnut Creek. We weren't sure what to expect when we first got it a couple of years ago, then there was a year's gap before they tried it again and then a few months later they made it regular. The clientele is mixed and half the people (or more) come just to see us. We probably have a larger female contingent in the audience there of any of our public gigs.

 

We weren't sure whether to take it at first, but the audience is our most appreciative and jazz-aware so it's worked out well and allowed us to drop our regular monthly Vacaville restaurant gig, which didn't exactly allow us to push our chops as we were to be "wallpaper". This is actually the gig where we stretch and take risks.

 

Most of our other gigs are private (benefits, parties, weddings, community events that are only open to Chamber of Commerce members, etc.). We haven't really made a push to get into places like Yoshi's.

[jeremy c]

Send me a pm about the Walnut Creek dates and the name of the club.

[Mark Schmieder]

I got the Jazz Bass set up on Tuesday, and it sounds very balanced now, so I guess the GHS Precision Flatwound strings were a good choice after all (they're meant for the P-Bass -- hence their name -- so I thought maybe I should have gone with the Fender flats that are more designed for the J-Bass). I was a bit concerned about the lower two strings until the setup work was completed.

 

I don't know if I'll have a chance to do any studio work with them for another week or two, but I used it at rehearsal Thursday night and it didn't change what it was good at vs. the Precision Bass but did amplify the differences and accentuate the positive. It still gets lost in the mix when my bandleader plays muddy organ from his Korg arranger workstation, but sounds great when he plays piano (whether acoustic upright, or from the cheesy Korg keyboard). Also, as before, best on certain r&b/soul/funk/disco type material and Straight Ahead Jazz, but more of a niche player than the P-Bass.

[Mark Schmieder]

I've been working too hard (80+ hours a week) to participate lately, but have squeezed in an occasional recording session, and meant to report that my Jazz Bass is totally transformed since the switch to flats and is now a great recording bass that is easy-peasy to mix.

 

Interesting how flats transformed both my P-Bass and my J-Bass to problem children to being my favorites and easy to work with as well as being far more versatile. I even prefer the flat wounds for plectrum, but then, the early players used picks on flats!

[Groove Mama]

I had flats installed on my Geddy a week ago and like the sound much better. I also discovered a buzz on one fret that my teacher confirmed was not due to a lack o' proper technique. I had the guitar tech adjust the bridge a little and will see if that fixes it.

[Mark Schmieder]

Hey, that's great that even the 70's-styled Geddy Lee model benefits from flats!

 

Hope you get the buzz problem sorted out.

[Chad Thorne]

I've got D'Addario Chrome flats on mine. I'm a D'Addario guy -- sound good, last a long time, very consistent, stay in tune -- and these don't disappoint.

This.