More output for my rig wanted.

[Tattoo]

1. First, what is speedrock?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrhzkg3nVos

 

2. Glad to hear 350W/4x10 is enough for rehearsal.

 

When I tried more than that (with two guitars with full-stack Marshalls) the drummer gave up because he couldn't hear himself anymore. (Irreversible hearing damage, anyone?)

The Eden amp has it's limiter led light up, so we are at max spl when practising.

We use hearing protection all the time.

 

3. Why are you doing larger (outdoor, I hope) gigs without PA support?

 

I did a show once (indoors) with professional sound run by an engineer but the stage volume was so insanely loud that all I could hear was a swirling whoosh of incoherent sound. I had to literally watch the drummer hit his kit to find the beat. (Surprisingly I was going through a MarkBass combo with tilted 2x10 that somehow kept up.)

 

So, as you can imagine, I am now a big fan of lower stage volume with as big a FoH ("front of house": PA in front of the band facing the audience) as necessary to fill the venue.

 

You may be better off investing in some PA gear such as a crossover (to split the high and low frequencies) and either a powered sub(s) or, equivalently, a power amp and a passive sub(s). (Your drummer will thank you, too, since he can run his kick through it as well.)

I'm talking about large indoor gigs with only PA for vocals. We do a lot of skate parks gigs like that.

We usually don't have bad (stage) sound any more. First is placement of the speakers, they should point diagonal across the stage. This makes sure the other band members can hear you without monitoring.

Than, still without monitor sound, what we do is to adjust our own level to the drums, so you can hear both yourself and the drums clearly (this alone is enough to make it through the gig). Then monitors add a bit of vocal and if needed a bit of the other instruments but that is most of the time not necessary.

The PA than adds more level to the podium sound.

 

Best would be to use in ear monitoring, with no sound coming from the stage at all. But we are not after a clean hifi sound, we want filthy rock&roll.

 

 

[Eric VB]

Thanks for the speedrock links. Interesting. Zeke sounds a little more punk to my ear but then throws in guitar leads that are much more sophisticated and rock-like than punk. Peter Pan sounds a little more metal but the guitar riff isn't quite intricate enough and the bass plays rock-like roots at times instead of always lock-step doubling the guitar. Vocals aren't quite cookie monster but they aren't clean, either.

 

Sounds like it would be great for a skate park, though!

 

Yes, IEM would be nice but I can see how you could lose performance energy on stage without the adrenaline-pumping loud volumes. (Please tell me you don't just stand like a statue when you play this stuff! )

 

Going with the full stack (two 4x10s) is the easiest thing to do. Give it a try.

 

One problem that will remain is trying to "tune" the overall band sound to the room. When most of the sound is coming through FoH a sound engineer can EQ and mix everything so you don't get unwanted feedback, howling, etc. When the sound is coming mainly from the stage, though, there's little that can be done at the mixing board.

 

It's not about going hifi. I saw a band the other night where the kick drum rang annoyingly and the bass boomed every time a D was played. And we've all seen bands where the mics just won't stop feeding back or the guitar is so piercing you just want to cut off your ears. You can fix those problems and still be filthy.

 

Yes, I know, most of us can't afford a sound guy so we have to mix from the stage. But that doesn't mean you should ignore any glaring sound problems just because they're harder to fix.

 

Have fun!

[lug]

Sadly, you've been misinformed by a bunch of want-to-be scientists. Here is all you really need to get what you are looking for out of your rig....

 

http://www.pbs.org/pov/blog/i/blog/spinal-tap-volume-to-11.jpg

 

 

[Imogene]

I appreciate my post being used for that pontification, but my point was completley missed in that process. Sigh. Two like cabinets, VERTICALLY stacked. If the amp is rated for 4ohms (most are), all the better. Good grief already.

[Tattoo]

Two like cabinets, VERTICALLY stacked.

 

Can you explain the difference between vertically stacked cabinets vs horizontally stacked cabinets or other possibilities like several cabinets placed apart from each other?

 

 

[rumpelstiltskin.]

as an example, a pair of 210s is most commonly stacked so that the loudspeakers are in a square array. stacking them vertically makes a line of loudspeakers. the reason why you do this is to get more output at ear level instead of knee level.

[Imogene]

Agreed.

 

I've also read that if you gig without PA support, the vertical stack has much better dispersion characteristics with less horizontal beaming so your signal is better balanced throughout the room. But I can't confirm that as I'm always playing and not out front.

 

In any case the very simple solution to the OP is to put another 410 on top of the one he already has. Another option would be to have everyone else turn down a bit.

[J. Dan]

When speakers are stacked vertically and in relatively close proximity, it creates a line array. Line arrays have a cylindrical dispersion instead of spherical, which results in sound level decaying by 3 dB every time you double the distance instead of the normal 6 dB. However, this only applies to the higher frequencies since the length (height) of the array determines how low it is effective.

 

This is why you see line arrays at concerts, and is also the theory behind the Bose sticks.

[Danzilla]

How does the line array effect work with those who lay their speaker cabinets down? I've seen several bands where the bass player has their Ampeg fridge lying horizontally.

[J. Dan]

Good question, and I'm not really sure given floor effects as well.

 

Another phenomenon that effects mostly lower frequencies is room effect - whether it is firing into 1/4 space, 1/2 space, etc. A speaker in the middle of a room will transmit low frequencies in all directions. If it's against a wall, that's considered 1/2 space and the same energy projects into 1/2 the area. In a corner is 1/4 space - you get the idea.

 

The reason why line arrays work the way they do is because the pressure from the adjacent drivers forces the energy into the forward direction. So if you think about it, this happens only with the drivers that have another one on each side, not the ones at the end. So you can't have a line array with 2 drivers, and with 3 drivers, only the middle one has any Impact. So you really need a number of them, and they really need to be in very close proximity. Add to that the floor/room effects, and it gets to be fairly complex to predict the results....also keeping in mind that the line array affects higher frequencies, and room affects lower.

[jcadmus]

Line array? Like this?

 

http://forum.speakerplans.com/uploads/13097/Dead_Wall_1.jpg

[b5pilot]

Holy moley!

[WCriley]

I've also read that if you gig without PA support, the vertical stack has much better dispersion characteristics with less horizontal beaming so your signal is better balanced throughout the room. But I can't confirm that as I'm always playing and not out front.

In my experience, indoors, mid range beaming/dispueion are more easily heard on stage (or directly in front of it) than further back in the room where room anomalies/reflections smear the sound.

 

Test this by standing directly in front of a horizontal 2x or a 4x instrument speaker cabinet. Then move to a position about 40 degrees off axis.

 

For bass players, seperating speaker cabinets is even worse than side-by-side driver arrangements because it drops this effect into the lower frequencies and makes it very inconsistant at various listening positions on the stage..

[jcadmus]

Holy moley!

I know, right?