Moog Voyager and Model D compared

[Mark Schmieder]

I was lucky that I got mine for WAY less than that. Couldn't have done it otherwise. You might find a few more for well below normal price this week or next, if you don't mind one that's been at a trade show but which is under warranty.

[HammondDave]

I was lucky that I got mine for WAY less than that. Couldn't have done it otherwise. You might find a few more for well below normal price this week or next, if you don't mind one that's been at a trade show but which is under warranty.

 

Please Contact me if you hear of any,

[SVG]

I'm a big fan of Moog products. Though I've never owned a Model D, my understanding (as has been said many times in this thread already), is that the D sounds better patch for patch over the Voyager. With the associated pitch stability issues. I think that in offering stability, it came at the price of balls (reminds me of the institution of marriage...).

 

I have the Voyager Select Series with the VX-351, the CP-251, the MP-201 and about 14 MoogerFooger pedals. It has become my 'little modular' system. Hours of fun with extraordinary ability to FSU. Could never come close to any of that with the Model D.

 

Stephen

 

 

 

 

.

[Markyboard]

If I were deciding on an original Mini vs the Voyager I would go with a Voyager for live. For studio I would control Monark with the Voyager, by mapping the related Monark parameters to the appropriate Voyager controls and letting her rip.

 

The recent thread by Theo got me going on Diva and Monark over the last few days. Diva is it's own synth, not all that minimoog -like IMO but way more versatile and pretty damn good sounding in its own right. Monark on the other hand is just stupid close to the Mini - nearly indistinguishable on the couple of sounds that I ran for comparison. I still have to try out a few more sounds but before you say that soft synths don't sound as good as the real thing I suggest giving this one a serious try. I doubt that I could identify the real Mini in a blind test in my own room. Those miniscule differences were neither better nor worse IMO. Granted I may find after some time that Monark doesn't sound as "organic" as the real thing, maybe its more fatiguing after long sessions etc. So I'm keeping an open mind and I'll leave it by saying the jury's still out on long term exposure.

 

Believe me as an owner of both I don't want to think that a $50 soft synth can match up to the real thing. But so far I'm pretty damn impressed. And for those not wanting to spend 2-4K on a 5 trick pony The Voyager/Monark combo just might be the ticket.

 

BTW I'm totally with those into using the Voyager as a semi modular and patching into the mod buses via the CP 251/351. I was having fun with that this weekend as well.

 

Having said all this I still find it way more satisfying/rewarding to play the real one from an interface perspective. I do think maybe the biggest delta was playing Monarch from a weighted controller (PC3x). But I will soon try the Voyager mapping with Monark and see how well that works. Like I said for live use I'd just go with the Voyager or a Sub-37 if that suits you better. Leave the computer/Monark at home -no one's going to care.

[CEB]

Wish the both units were set to unity volume.

 

[video:youtube]

[Al Coda]

... is just stupid close to the Mini - nearly indistinguishable on the couple of sounds that I ran for comparison. I still have to try out a few more sounds but before you say that soft synths don't sound as good as the real thing I suggest giving this one a serious try. I doubt that I could identify the real Mini in a blind test in my own room. Those miniscule differences were neither better nor worse IMO.

 

It all depends on the tones you dial in on a real Minimoog D and than on a virtual instrument for a comparison or to replicate that sound.

 

Like on a Hammond,- when you PLAY the original Minimoog D, you hear the spring key-contacts smear over the busbars.

This isn´t obvious w/ the smooth sounds having some attack time dialed in on the VCA envelope (or both,- VCF & VCA envelopes) but it has a lot of impact when playing the percussive attack sounds for fast leads like Jan Hammer (and others) did, attack & decay times near zero and the sustain level about 6, then using the VCF CV pedal in addition.

 

Now, when you do that and combine it w/ the feedback loop trick, you don´t get this sound w/ any of the Minimoog D emulation, also not w/ Minimax on DSPs.

 

It´s also well known, the audio-out/audio in loopback behaves different on each Minimoog D out there and exactly this behaviour is extremely difficult to model because most plugin designers have only ONE real Minimoog they use as a comparison,- so the bahaviour of the audio-in to filter loopback is what happens in THIS Minimoog, not to forget to mention, the original Minimoog D had/has (if not modified) a high level and a low level output and no plugin designer seems to take care for this detail.

It´s a different result when using the feedback trick w/ the low output or high output of the Minimoog D and it also depends on which other settings are used as well as is the master volume setting and if you ride a VCA CV pedal in addition or not.

 

The real analog envelope generators, especially these from the Minimoog D which were always the fastest in the market, will be much snappier than any software generated envelopes, now and in future.

You cannot change the physics.

Any plugin will be calculated by a CPU or DSP and there is the MIDI signal from a controller keyboard and the UI running on a computer screen.

All costs TIME,- period.

 

Because I don´t want to go out w/ my Minimoog D always (but sometimes do) I got some cool Minimoog D tones incl. lead sounds I use w/ a side by side comparison of Minimoog and Kurzweil PC3 using the VA.

But also there, the feedback as well as the envelope speeds are a issue, not to forget to mention the lame LFOs.

You come close for some patches, but when playing the real, the experience is significantly different.

 

A.C.

 

[Markyboard]

 

It all depends on the tones you dial in on a real Minimoog D and than on a virtual instrument for a comparison or to replicate that sound.

A.C.

 

Yeah - did some more experimenting last night and I'm starting to find the biggest difference is those lower bass frequencies - even present with some of the mid range notes . The real thing just moves air, and has a " wet puffiness low frequency component" missing from the soft synth which comes up "dry" sounding in the bass range. I can imagine with some bigger cabinets this would really reveal itself. I also found that the Voyager internal sound has this extra oomph although other things make it sound different from the mini. Despite this difference and the ones you've called out on the whole I think Monark comes closer to the original than the Voyager. Then again, I don't need/want 2 of the same.

 

Like on a Hammond,- when you PLAY the original Minimoog D, you hear the spring key-contacts smear over the busbars.

This isn´t obvious w/ the smooth sounds having some attack time dialed in on the VCA envelope (or both,- VCF & VCA envelopes) but it has a lot of impact when playing the percussive attack sounds for fast leads like Jan Hammer (and others) did, attack & decay times near zero and the sustain level about 6, then using the VCF CV pedal in addition.

 

Now, when you do that and combine it w/ the feedback loop trick, you don´t get this sound w/ any of the Minimoog D emulation, also not w/ Minimax on DSPs.

A.C.

 

Agreed- the spring contacts affect is unique giving it that "gummy sound", again missing from the soft synth. But with some glide programmed in and depending what/how you're playing this becomes somewhat subtle to non-existent IMO. BTW I am glad I opted not to rip out the springs for the Kevin Lightner sensor mod.

 

It´s also well known, the audio-out/audio in loopback behaves different on each Minimoog D out there and exactly this behaviour is extremely difficult to model because most plugin designers have only ONE real Minimoog they use as a comparison,- so the bahaviour of the audio-in to filter loopback is what happens in THIS Minimoog, not to forget to mention, the original Minimoog D had/has (if not modified) a high level and a low level output and no plugin designer seems to take care for this detail.

It´s a different result when using the feedback trick w/ the low output or high output of the Minimoog D and it also depends on which other settings are used as well as is the master volume setting and if you ride a VCA CV pedal in addition or not.

A.C.

 

Haven't tried the feedback thing nor a cv pedal at this point.

I'm waiting on a replacement pot for my old Moog control pedal that I just pulled from storage.

The real analog envelope generators, especially these from the Minimoog D which were always the fastest in the market, will be much snappier than any software generated envelopes, now and in future.

You cannot change the physics.

Any plugin will be calculated by a CPU or DSP and there is the MIDI signal from a controller keyboard and the UI running on a computer screen.

All costs TIME,- period.

A.C.

 

To be honest I have not detected any deficiency with regard to attack/snappiness.I would think all that extra "calculation time" results in latency/delay ...but would not add to the actual attack time once the note triggers. I'm, not such a stickler about a few ms of latency and my PC/Soundcard (RME AES32e) is pretty fast.

 

Because I don´t want to go out w/ my Minimoog D always (but sometimes do) I got some cool Minimoog D tones incl. lead sounds I use w/ a side by side comparison of Minimoog and Kurzweil PC3 using the VA.

But also there, the feedback as well as the envelope speeds are a issue, not to forget to mention the lame LFOs.

You come close for some patches, but when playing the real, the experience is significantly different.

 

A.C.

 

Point taken Al. I still think in a lot of cases the soft synth comes more than close enough. I did set up with the Voyager controlling Monark last night and it works well, except for the octave select knobs. Monark doesn't match up with the controller data as desired and so you have to still use the mouse for these 3 knobs in most cases.

[Tusker]

Yeah - did some more experimenting last night and I'm starting to find the biggest difference is those lower bass frequencies - even present with some of the mid range notes . The real thing just moves air ...

 

Emphasis added.

 

This why I save soft synths for studio and real analog for gigs at this point. It's not about sounding precisely like a Minimoog. The virtuals are pretty close. What happens "live" is different. After years of gigging with VA's and soft synths I know exactly what this feeling that you are moving air is just as Al does. I have two possible reasons for this difference between studio performance and live performance:

 

1) The real thing has this huge fundamental frequency. It's like having 5-8 sine oscillators added into each saw oscillator. Your drummer's playing, your bass players groove, they adjust to play around this thick wall, even when your volumes are low. Just play a drone at the G below middle C, and watch them play differently, even when you are playing in the mid-range as you point out.

 

2) The real thing is completely time aligned. Even at low volume the sonic image is completely cohesive regardless of whether the drummer is thrashing a ride cymbal and the snare is hitting you in the chest. With the digitals the sonic image falls apart because some part of the spectrum arrives a few samples late here or a few samples late there. You have to crank the digital volume to obnoxious levels to get the same feeling. It's the kind of stuff Theo was talking about in the digital modular thread. It's real.

 

For the last two years I've gigged a Slim Phatty triggered from an 88key with aftertouch and I have developed a technique to get vibrato on aftertouch. It's ergonomically very friendly, although admittedly the filter/vca gain staging is not completely vintage sounding. (On the other hand, the oscillators are beautifully sloppy, which I think people will start to miss with the new, precise Sub Phatty / Sub 37 oscillators. Just you wait and see. ) I will probably pick up a Sub 37 or a Sub rack when it becomes available. These are a no-brainer to me. Moves air, aftertouch, vintage sound, no tears if when it gets bashed accidentally.

[Markyboard]

Awesome thread/discussion guys - thanks!

[Doerfler]

Awesome thread/discussion guys - thanks!

 

+1

 

although I have not contributed to this thread I have read along with interest. I won't be adding to my Voyager / DSI P8 KPE arsenal anytime soon (or longer than that), but it's nice to know about comparisons.