OT: Poll: Bush Regime Most Corrupt in History?

[declan]

Mr. BoDiddley, too cool, man, thank you.

 

Johnny B. I've never killed anyone either. So continue to spit up your bile and allow Bush to run rampant while you alienate everyone.

 

Save the world man. It's all up to you, because I'll never see anyone standing next to you. I'll face my own evils in this world with counsel, comittment, charity and hope.

 

I really didn't think you were a clown, but I pray you're not a Democrat.

[sourmash]

I realize that I am new here but I must get in on defending my current Commander in Chief. I spent much of my military career under Clinton. Speaking for myself and many others (not all), he embarassed us with the fact that he violated the values that the Army enforces in all it's workers. I had an internal feeling that everything that Bill Clinton did was merely to satisfy his own ego and appear well in the public eye. These were not good times to be in the service and it definitely affected morale. Add to that the fact that nothing really adverse happened during the Clinton admin except for his complete failure to authorize the requested support in Somalia. The bottom line is that neither side changes thier mind about these arguments as they perceive what they want to. I think that Bush has made good headway against the fight versus terror and support this admin much more than I did with the previous. Afghanistan is attempting to install a new and civil governament as is Iraq. Other than the fact that some several hundred soldiers have died in Iraq as opposed to the 50,000+ that were killed in Vietnam that ended in our withdrawal, what are you guys so pissed about? Also, please tell me about your ideals as to how this country should be run.

[6 stringer]

Love your screen name man, but I don't know what unit you served in and I'm sorry to disagree, it's worse under Bush. Been to any VA Hospitals lately and talk to any Vets? All the guys I talk with hate Bush and Cheney. They see the games theses guys are playing and they can't stand Bush.

[wireline]

Originally posted by Unemployed:

Love your screen name man, but I don't know what unit you served in and I'm sorry to disagree, it's worse under Bush. Been to any VA Hospitals lately and talk to any Vets? All the guys I talk with hate Bush and Cheney. They see the games theses guys are playing and they can't stand Bush.

Really...I get reatment from a VA hospital twice a month...and though not 100%, the overwhelming majority of young and old, war or peacetime, regardless of service, support the President and the current military efforts...

 

Of course, my polling is not a cross section of the populace...even within the VA system, as most people I have spoken with about these issues are service connected injuries/disabilities...maybe one has to sacrifice something before they can fully appreciate the good bing done in Iraq...

[alcohol_]

sourmash,

 

don't know how you can not know why so many people are pissed at Bush about invading Iraq and not Afghanistan.

 

It's because of this, the reasons Bush gave for us invading Iraq were bogus and they were supported with bogus evidence. If it's wrong for Clinton to lie about getting a blow job, it's even more egregious to lie about putting American soldiers in harms way. Truth shouldn't have been compromised when it comes to reasons for going to war. I don't go for this relatavistic attitude of the Bush supporters.

[moonz]

Bush and Cheney are in office for one BIG reason...to make their corporate patrons richer.

 

And the Iraq war effort is a perfect way to funnel huge amounts of taxpayer dollars to the corporations... indeed...with the blessings of the taxpayers themselves!

 

This is a dream scenario for the military goods contractors..."here, take many billions of dollars of my tax money and spend it on fighting terrorism!...will you please??".

 

Is this corruption?...unfortunately, I don't think it could be called corruption if it gets the blessings of the majority of the voting public, as unwitting as they may be.

 

Possibly the question should be: What administration has perpetrated the biggest lies while in office.

 

And I think in a few more years it will become evident that the current Bush administration should hold the position: "favorite" of all time...

[Saint Johnny B]

Unemp, all the Marines I know, the ones who went to Iraq, said it was obvious to them that the whole deal was about the oil. They said they'd like to "Kick Bush and Cheney's Asses." So, there are those out there who look a little deeper for the truth, and don't blindly say "aye-aye, sir" to a a corrupt offical. This is not to say they refuse to follow orders, they just dislike the guys at the top and their decisions.

 

I'd like to know the dollar value of the Harding Administration's rip-offs vs. those of Bush and Cheney. At least, Harding did not leave as many dead bodies lying around, or did he? Teapot Dome seem to be less costly than and Bush and Cheney's blood for oil in Iraq.

[strat0124]

I went to the VA and the Navy Dental clinic for emergency work....they both turned me away. Me thinks its time to get proactive.

[Funk Jazz]

http://funnytimes.com/features/recipe/Recipe.card.756.jpg

[Saint Johnny B]

Funk that's really funny, but only because it has so much truth to it. Which is sad, very sad indeed.

 

I heard on CPAN that Judicial Watch has some kind of map of Iraq's oil reserves on their website, apparently the map pre-existed Bush and Cheney's dirty little war and was a large factor in the decision to start the killing and blood letting.

[the stranger]

Originally posted by Geenard:

I went to the VA and the Navy Dental clinic for emergency work....they both turned me away. Me thinks its time to get proactive.

Bingo.

[SoundMeister]

Originally posted by Johnny B:

....all the Marines I know, the ones who went to Iraq, said it was obvious to them that the whole deal was about the oil.

Why was it obvious? What are their sources of information? How reliable are those sources?

 

If speculation were banned from political discussions, there wouldn't be too many of these kinds of threads.

[sourmash]

I have debated these things with people for so long now that I am really running out of energy. Noone ever sees anything differently afterward and still has the same negative thoughts that they brought in with them. I still have enough interest now and then to point out specific things similar to what was stated in the previous post. "Speculation". Pretty cool concept really. Many arguments are built on this concept. Generally when someone comes up with an attempt to put forth some strong argument, they post a link to a "credible" website or some source where people can learn or evaluate the data in order to help prove or disprove a point. And to add to the requests that others have made previously, which seem to have been avoided so far, "What would you do to better serve the nation as the CIC?" Someone previously posted that we invaded Iraq instead of Afghanistan. That is not a sensible argument. U.S. Army units were in Afghanistan shortly after 9/11 working thier asses off but things did not go ideally, which is unfortunate but true. To this day, those guys are still over there trying to get Bin Laden and his cohorts. Do not criticize these guys for doing the best that they can. They are dying as are soldiers in Iraq. Adding to that, there has been an added sense of stability in Afghanistan and they are debating over the new establishing government at this time. I am also getting a sense that some people feel "lied" to about the course of action in Iraq. I do not think that you have given enough time to the evolving process over there to actually make this claim. Another thing I noticed was the "red herring" joke about Iraq and al queda relations. Someone please present a credible source that will do away with that concept. It is not hard for me to believe that the Taliban and the Baath party lived with similar concepts and probably had a working communication (although I am not sure how far that went).

Or you can just blow me off as some asshole conservative which is what often happens anyway.

[GZsound]

Hey..welcome to the "asshole conservatives" group!!

 

I find the comments regarding the guys at the VA hospital being against the president beyond funny.

 

We have a pretty good sized VA hospital here and I get the opportunity to visit for my twice yearly unbelievably painful eye exams.. Of the guys I've talked to in the cafe and the lobby.. I get the distinct impression they are pretty much all behind our president. and you sure see a lot of American flags and "Support Our Troops" bumper stickers in the parking garage..

 

But again, we all know comments like these contain no proof, no published reports and unless they were broadcast on NPR, none of you would believe it anyway..

[Saint Johnny B]

My sources were Vets in the hospitals and from Marines who were sent in to capture the oil fields as the "Number One Priority," they said civilian casualties were of "no concern," they were told, "Get those oil fields and nothing else matters." And they knew this was not an isolated policy or simple assignment objective, they said everyone in the entire Marine Corp and all the other armed forces knew what was up and what the real priorty was. Let's not forget that senior Bush Admin. Officials, like Woofy, made statements well before the concept of really going and bombing and invading Iraq had crystalized that "Iraq is swimming on a sea of oil." The real motive has always been THE Oil! All the rest is smoke and mirrors and propaganda. Wake up!!!

 

The secondary motive was the 160 billion and growing spend thrift program to benefit special interests. Wake up!!!

 

No bid contracts! Corruption! Wake up!!!

 

American taxpayers money! Wake up!!!

 

3 million jobs lost! Wake up!!!

 

Record deficit spending! Wake up!!!

[sourmash]

"Civilian causulties are no concern." Whoever told you that had just gotten his thorazine prescription filled. If you buy that crock of shit, no argument that anyone can present will make a difference to you. Do you even understand that just a statement like that is worth imprisonment? Do you have any idea of the legality principles of a unit commander? (I am just asking to help you evaluate your lack of knowledge. I know that you do not else I wouldnt have posted that.)

You guys go ahead and live in your fantasy land. I care less and less each day about your disrespect and lack of concern about the world outside your little corner of perception (reminds me of the people that go to that Jackson playground). I forgive you guys on account of your gifted knowledge on how to do things better. Oh wait, noone has explained a better concept.

[Funk Jazz]

i'm currently serving in the air force, and i can tell you that support for troops is very high. but please don't cunfuse troop support for policy support. they are not the same thing.

 

i would say the current military environment is split like the civilian world over bush. while many are happy to support any CIC, many vets are wondering why he slashes their benefits.

 

clearly this is a messy time, and there are no simple answers. most of my peers in the air force want more information before condemning the president.

 

to me, W is playing a really bad game of chess. he might win, but his form is terrible. other presidents have done the same, but with enough tact that the masses let it go. W isn't any worse than Reagan, or Ford, or Bush Sr.

 

remember the gulf of tonkin? read up on it. what is old is new again.

 

just my .00002, back to lurking...

[Saint Johnny B]

Thanks Funk.

 

That's exactly how I would imagine the military folks to be, some support Bush and Cheney no matter if they are giving blowjobs to Halliburton, some want more info or are undecided, and some hate the bastards and their shit-for-brains policies.

[Saint Johnny B]

Wonder what the "Big Dick C" and "Bait and Switch Bush" will find under the tree as little tokens of appreciation from Halliburton? Stocks held in trust? Real Estate Deeds? Private Luxury Yacht? Oh I know, a brand, spanking new offshore secret bank account.

[Chuck Moore]

Looks like Santa is beeing pretty good to Bush this Christmas. Sadamm in custod, economy roaring along, DOW 10k+, rising aproal ratings, public supporting his Iraq policy at somewhere around 2 to 1, overall approval in the 60% range, and the biggest evidence of all that Santa is real.............. He's giving him Howard Dean as his opponent next year.

[Saint Johnny B]

Cheney = the Grinch who stole X=mas

 

Bush = the Anti-Christ.

[wireline]

JohnnyB's endless hatred for his own sake...

 

 

JB my boy...why don't YOU enlist (you can pass the test, can't you?) and set everyone straight...

[Philter]

Bush's recent upturn in polls could fade as quickly as it came. His reelection is dependent on events beyond his control. It only took two weeks for him to come out of the shithouse, and he'll assuredly return there at some point before the election. 11 months is an eternity in a presidential campaign.

 

As to the fellow who brought up the iraq/al qaeda tie, I have three questions:

 

1. Is innocent until proven guilty something that we believe in, or only preach in hypocrisy?

 

2. How do you explain the radical ideological differences between Al Qaeda and Baathism, or are you simply ignorant of them?

 

The fact is, Al Qaeda and Baathism are as ideologically opposed as Al Qaeda and democracy. They could never have been good bedmates.

 

3. Before a US president consigns US soldiers to death in a foreign land, and US tax dollars to foreign misadventures, shouldn't he be expected to provide reasonable evidence as to the necessity of such an enterprise? Or is it enough to merely make wild and unsubstantiated claims? And, if somehow you are looney enough to argue that it's enough to simply make the wild claims, how should we respond when said claims are eventually shown to be wholly lacking in supporting evidence, and in some cases contradicted altogether?

 

This man misled the nation and led us blindy and in ill preparation to infamy in a foreign land. He deserves no loyalty and no sympathy from any American, and it will be our duty to salvage our reputation and rightful good name by unseating him in November.

[Saint Johnny B]

Phil, great post!

 

But "Bait and Switch Bush" and "Cheney, the Grinch who stole X-mas" should be jailed as well as ousted from office.

 

One of their suprise x-mas gifts to the American people were 4 more cold, dead, Americans under the tree.

[Philter]

Not to forget about the illegal CIA agent leak...

 

Washington Post: Leak Probe is Gathering Momentum

 

Remember, Bush's fortunes rise and fall on events beyond his control. The neocons have made enough bad moves so that one puff of wind would bring the whole rotten structure down. Sooner or later, they will collapse under the weight of their own poor choices.

[Philter]

Originally posted by sourmash:

"Civilian causulties are no concern." Whoever told you that had just gotten his thorazine prescription filled. If you buy that crock of shit, no argument that anyone can present will make a difference to you. Do you even understand that just a statement like that is worth imprisonment? Do you have any idea of the legality principles of a unit commander? (I am just asking to help you evaluate your lack of knowledge. I know that you do not else I wouldnt have posted that.)

You guys go ahead and live in your fantasy land. I care less and less each day about your disrespect and lack of concern about the world outside your little corner of perception (reminds me of the people that go to that Jackson playground). I forgive you guys on account of your gifted knowledge on how to do things better. Oh wait, noone has explained a better concept.

I was sincere in the three questions I posed to you. Would you care to respond?

[Philter]

Originally posted by Philter:

Bush's recent upturn in polls could fade as quickly as it came. His reelection is dependent on events beyond his control. It only took two weeks for him to come out of the shithouse, and he'll assuredly return there at some point before the election. 11 months is an eternity in a presidential campaign.

 

As to the fellow who brought up the iraq/al qaeda tie, I have three questions:

 

1. Is innocent until proven guilty something that we believe in, or only preach in hypocrisy?

 

2. How do you explain the radical ideological differences between Al Qaeda and Baathism, or are you simply ignorant of them?

 

The fact is, Al Qaeda and Baathism are as ideologically opposed as Al Qaeda and democracy. They could never have been good bedmates.

 

3. Before a US president consigns US soldiers to death in a foreign land, and US tax dollars to foreign misadventures, shouldn't he be expected to provide reasonable evidence as to the necessity of such an enterprise? Or is it enough to merely make wild and unsubstantiated claims? And, if somehow you are looney enough to argue that it's enough to simply make the wild claims, how should we respond when said claims are eventually shown to be wholly lacking in supporting evidence, and in some cases contradicted altogether?

 

This man misled the nation and led us blindy and in ill preparation to infamy in a foreign land. He deserves no loyalty and no sympathy from any American, and it will be our duty to salvage our reputation and rightful good name by unseating him in November.

[schmee]

>> duck, duck, goose (mp3)

 

http://www.schmee.biz/mythology/lilback-goose.jpg

 

call him dick, or tom, or harry,

cause he ain't no man's sucker,

he's got a taste for the Man,

and he's a mean, mean muther fucker.

 

fighting over the food,

hanging out in the gaggle,

he's always arguing with the brood,

just watch that Man-tail waggle.

 

yeah, the senator told me,

boy, you won't go far,

with that bass on your knee,

and a funky, scratch, guitar.

 

but i thought he was tying,

a blindfold around my head,

- turns out he was lying,

he was trying to fuck me instead.

 

duck, duck, goose,

duck, duck, goose,

... go ahead and put your in head the noose.

 

duck, duck, duck, duck - duck, goose,

don't you think, that if they had a use,

for the people in the system,

they were taught to abuse,

that they wouldn't need to muscle,

to hustle and confuse.

 

duck, duck, duck - duck, goose,

...

gonna see who they can pick on,

make some money off abuse.

 

...

gonna kick you when you're down,

when they beat the living crap,

out of any thing that moves.

 

duck, duck, goose,

duck, duck, goose,

... go ahead an put your head in the noose.

 

titties (intense).

[alcohol_]

sourmash wrote:

 

"I am also getting a sense that some people feel "lied" to about the course of action in Iraq. I do not think that you have given enough time to the evolving process over there to actually make this claim."

 

Getting a sense? in December of 2003? Where have you been?There was a sense we were lied to since February 2003, when Powell made his lame presentation to the UN about proof of WMD. I watched the speech and I thought, what a weak case, but he gets the benefit of the doubt. Well the benefit of the doubt is gone. Ten months an the imminent threat is still not found. There's no longer a sense that we've been lied to, there's ample reason to believe.

 

sourmash, you can have all the beliefs and feelings you want. Ten months of lno WMD. 473 American soldiers dead since the war began. 2700 wounded. 3240 Iraq civilians dead. These are conservative estimates. Our soldiers made this sacrifice because we were told that there was an imminent threat that could not wait. Not plans, not documents - stockpiles and missles and the possiblity of nuclear mushrooms in months time. You don't think we were lied to?

 

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

Bottom line; where's the WMD?

There 's good reason to believe we've been deceived.

[Chuck Moore]

So alcahol, just out of curiosity, what do you think happened to the WMD. I've asked this several times on acouple of different threads, havn't got anyone to reply yet.

 

a. He never had them, just ran around for a dozen years acting like he was hiding them for some reason he may yet enlighten us to.

 

b. They are still there, hidden somewhere in some hole in the ground just as he was and we just havn't found them yet.

 

c. They were there, but are not now. Some, maybee most destroyed shortly before the war, or worse moved out to another country or faction prior to the war, possibly Syria.

 

or maybe there is another possibility I'm not seeing. If you have one, throw it out and lets see if it holds water. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as WMD was just one of a multitude of reasons for Liberating Iraq. Some of them legal, some moral, some strategic, some political. However the WMD situation plays out in the end, a majority of Americans still think it was the right thing to do. And that majority is getting bigger, not smaller.