Disappearing low end.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

Well I'm about done mixing, finally. I've been going through and listening to what I've done and there is one problem that recurs on 4 or 5 songs: At higher volumes the bass drum has a nice thud to it and fits nicely in the mix. When I go to a medium or lower volume the bass drum disappears in the mud. I'm gonna try to add a couple of db at the bass drum freq and see if that gets it up there. What would you guys try? Is this something they can smooth out in mastering?

[alcohol_]

A multiband compressor can help that. You should do your mixes at low volume to hear the proper balance. Your ears act like a compressor at high volumes. If it sounds good at a low volume it will sound good at high volumes while the opposite is not true.

[EXAGON]

I agree. And try to analyze the spectrum of the bass, maybe it sounds great on large speakers because it has a lot of very low freqs, which are ignored in a consumer listening device, and which even disturb because they overload the small speakers, driving them to distortion without even hearing them. One solution is cutting the very low end of the bass and boosting it's volume. Another solution is putting some distortion to the bass which adds harmonics in the low mids thus becoming more noticeable.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

Hi, I posted this as a hopefully helpful solution to someone else's bass problem in another forum. Hopefully, it can be of use to you too: one inexpensive tool that you can use to at least help you know whether or not you are in the ballpark. This is an SPL (sound pressure level) meter. Most people I know, including other mastering engineers (I saw one on Bob Ludwig's console) use a Radio Shack model. I think I paid about $30 for mine. Basically, an SPL meter is a measurement microphone hooked up to a meter. It will tell you approximately how loud, in decibels, a particular sound is. To use it to judge bass, simply sit in your optimal listening position while holding the meter, then turn up the volume of your mix until your meter (set to "C weighting" and "slow") reads @ 80-86 dB. Why 80 dB? Well the human ear does not hear bass evenly at different volume levels. At lower than 80 dB, our ears perceive bass level as lower than that of other frequencies. It's complicated, and two scientists, Fletcher & Munson, have created a curve that demonstrates the relative non-linearities in human hearing. Anyway, at 80 dB, our ears hear bass more linearly than at higher or lower levels. Arthur Winer Mastering Engineer Canaveral Skies Music http://www.canaveralskies.com/mastering.htm

[Philter]

The advice to work at 80 dB is good, but it still won't fix your disappearing kick problem, because your problem is occuring when listening at low levels. So, "Turn up your monitors" is not such helpful advice in such a situation, although it will result in a generally decent translation of your mixes. However, when a listener pops it in the stereo at a low level, your kick will still be AWOL. First thing you might try is eliminating the "mud" in the lows by scooping out any low frequency noise on tracks that don't need it. Basically clear out the space down low for the kick. Generally I put the thump of my kicks mostly below 130 Hz, peaking in the 70-100 range. So you'll want to make sure nothing is fighting in that range. I use high pass filters on tracks with noise below 150 that doesn't do any good. Sometimes I'll even put a narrow bell-shaped cut on the bass right around the 80 hz range, to let the kick speak. Second thing you can try is giving some higher frequency presence to the kick- basically click, or slap, or knock, depending on where you want it. This will let you still get the rhythmic pulse of the kick across when listening at low levels. Generally I'm trying to say, lose the mud, define the kick. It will never really slap you in the chest at a low level, but you can still give the [i]impression[/i] that, if one were to just turn it up, it sure would.

[KenElevenShadows]

Monitor at all volumes, including low volumes. Everything should be present even at low volumes.

[arthurcanaveralskies.com]

[quote]Monitor at all volumes, including low volumes. Everything should be present even at low volumes.[/quote]I agree that one should monitor at all levels. For example, it's a good idea to test how the vocals sit in the mix at low volume levels. However, it's unrealistic to expect bass frequencies to be equally present even at low volumes. Human ears do not perceive low frequencies the same as higher frequencies at all decibel levels. If you turn down the volume, the bass frequencies will seem to disappear more quickly than the other frequencies. Our ears are not linear. Therefore, it's important to check bass at around 80-86 dB SPL. That's the level that our ears are best suited to judge bass. If the problem with your kick is that it's getting lost in the "mud," chances are it's a masking problem with the low-mid content of some other instruments. Try some mild cuts in the 150-300 Hz range in the other instruments. This might help make "room" for the kick. Good luck! Arthur Winer Mastering Engineer Canaveral Skies Music http://www.canaveralskies.com/mastering.htm

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Macartie: [b][QUOTE]However, it's unrealistic to expect bass frequencies to be equally present even at low volumes. Human ears do not perceive low frequencies the same as higher frequencies at all decibel levels. [/b][/quote]You are absolutely right. That's why I wrote, "Everything should be present even at low volumes,", and not "everything should be EQUALLY present at all volumes." Again, it is crucial to monitor at low volumes so that you can get everything present at all volumes. To do any less than that is not, in my humble opinion, a fully effective mix. What you are describing is [url=http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm]the Fletcher- Munson effect.[/url]

[BP3]

[quote]Originally posted by Philter: [b]First thing you might try is eliminating the "mud" in the lows by scooping out any low frequency noise on tracks that don't need it. Basically clear out the space down low for the kick. Generally I put the thump of my kicks mostly below 130 Hz, peaking in the 70-100 range. So you'll want to make sure nothing is fighting in that range.[/b][/quote]The thing that often happens is called "masking". This is when the frequencies of one instrument mask the same frequencies of another instrument. In the case of bass instruments, the kick is going to have a fixed frequency (fundamantal) that you need to identify and make certain that bass guitars or synths do not fight. This is also an important thing with making vocals work in a mix. View a mix like sonic real estate. You don't want too many living in one place and too few in another. This is a big factor in arranging a tune. Chord inversions can make or break the space for each part. If bass, guitar and keys are all fighting for the same pitches, you're going to have a tough time mixing (or sounding good live).

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

A lot of great advice here. One problem was that I had too much reverb on the drums. In one song particularly I had been tapping the reverb unit at the aux bus and hadn't thought enough to lessen the level. Also, my drum delays ("thumps" timed to the track) were too high I think. I ended up turning those down alot. Maybe so much that you can't even hear it anymore, not sure. I gotta take a few day's break from mixing for sanity's sake so this weekend I'll determine if I was able to clear this problem up. .[/qb][/QUOTE]The thing that often happens is called "masking". This is when the frequencies of one instrument mask the same frequencies of another instrument. In the case of bass instruments, the kick is going to have a fixed frequency (fundamantal) that you need to identify and make certain that bass guitars or synths do not fight. This is also an important thing with making vocals work in a mix. View a mix like sonic real estate. You don't want too many living in one place and too few in another. This is a big factor in arranging a tune. Chord inversions can make or break the space for each part. If bass, guitar and keys are all fighting for the same pitches, you're going to have a tough time mixing (or sounding good live).[/QB][/QUOTE] Great advice, Tinder. I don't have any synths going to I would think it wouldn't be a problem. The thing is though I have a LOT of guitar tracks playing in unison on most of my songs. I'm not sure if that's smart or not. It might sound as powerful or even more powerful with only one track going. Any experience with that Tinder? Or anyone else

[KenElevenShadows]

There's nothing wrong with multiple guitars playing the same part. Lots of bands do it. We do it here. We often use different combinations of instruments, swapping guitars or amps or mics (or all of the above) to achieve different sounds. Mixed together, it can often achieve a sound that one guitar/amp combination could not. Experiment with eliminating frequency overlap ("masking") by either cutting EQ in the low mids or lows or by using your high-pass filter and raising and lowering that. Sometimes what can happen is that the bottom end opens up because you've eliminated conflicting frequencies. Sometimes nothing or almost nothing happens. If using the high-pass filter, slide that back and forth and try and set it so that it achieves the desired effect without changing the tone of the guitars (or keyboards or whatever).

[Hanshananigan]

Try different volumes with different stereos/amps. Some amps adjust the freq response/eqing automatically as volume changes to account for this effect. Some do not. Good luck!