Help!!

[cchuckc]

I have been playing too many years to mention, and at the risk of someone tellimg me and me realizing how ridiculously easy it is, but before I go to the big studio in the sky I want to know how to do one thing: Russ Freeman's sound on the David Benoit song "Every Step Of The Way". How can I do it?? ccolvin@kingsmillriess.com

[Caevan O’Shite]

Got a video or clip, a link, to post? I don't think I've heard that song before, but at the very least I'd be willing to give it a listen and take a shot at figuring out what's going on there with his sound and tone. I take it that this is about a guitar solo? Or, some other fills, comping, or something?

[cchuckc]

I've never seen it in video. You can probably hear a clip from CD Universe, on Benoit's Freedom at Midnight cd. It is not a solo; strictly back up. Sounds like swelling with a lot of chorus, almost acoustic.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Going by that description, but not having heard the track yet, I'd suggest starting with various means of doing volume-swells ("pinky-swells" on the guitar's volume-knob, volume pedals, envelope attack/delay "Slow Gear"/"Slow Volume" type pedals, etc.) on a clean tone going into some chorus with delay and/or reverb. (I'll try to get around to finding and listening to that soon to better assess a way to get a similar sound. SEE EDIT BELOW)

 

The Lexicon Vortex- old, discontinued but still found used- has a couple of great patch-presets called Quoir, presets 10/A and 10/B, that have polyrhythmic delays and a stereo "Haas-Effect" and multi-chorus; the modulation depth increases as the attack and strength of the input-signal fades, seeming to swell modulation in the rhythmic echoes. This works BEAUTIFULLY for shimmering volume-swells, particularly with some nice reverb following. (If you or anyone shops for one, talk to WPSmith or myself here for some advice before buying- what to look for, what to do if you find a good deal on a Vortex with some problems, etc.)

 

An Electro-Harmonix Deluxe Memory Man does a beautiful modulated delay, as do a number of various other analog and digital delays...

 

There's that "Shimmer" pedal that The Edge of U2 uses a lot...

 

EDIT: OK, I've listened to it- pretty sure I've heard it before somewhen, Weather Channel or the like?- sounds like a Strat-style on Pickup-Selector Position #2 (Bridge + Middle), heavily compressed, with a Haas/stereo-wide-delay type effect and chorus (a T.C. Electronic Stereo Chorus/Flanger or similar hi-fi clean/full freq type chorus would be good for this), with volume-swells some of the time (particularly when hanging back in the mix during the vers-section with a lot of reverb and less dry signal), and less 'verb and no swells in the louder, more up-front parts such as the chorus-section.

 

There's keyboard mixed along with it in those swelling, ambient verse parts, which may trick the ear into suspecting something more complicated is going on there; experimentation with a harmonizer may yield some good results.

[cchuckc]

Thanks! I can work on that. I have gotten close before but couldn't quite duplicate it.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Let us know how you fare, keep us posted! Post clips of your playing with this sort of sound if you can!

[Winston Psmith]

Some cabling tricks you may want to try - guitar into compressor into splitter box, then run one channel into verb, the other into chorus; experiment with using a volume pedal after the chorus, or the reverb, to emulate the swell effect. If you have a panning volume pedal, you can plug both in and pan between them.

 

If your reverb or chorus has dual outs, you may want to use one of them as the splitter, but experiment with placement - chorus after 'verb can give you a more expansive sound, and detune in place of chorus will take out the obvious LFO warbling. Good luck . . .

[cchuckc]

Hey, since I am on a roll, how can I eliminate a horrible hum? I am using a Strat into a Roland VG-8,, with an old Digitech Rp-21 on the effects loop. I recently added a Marshall mini stack on one channel and have both a Peavey Bandit and a Fender Super Champ on the other. I am suspicious of the Marshall, as I didn't have this hum before. Any ideas?

[Winston Psmith]

My first thought is a ground loop, which can be dangerous, as well as noisy. It could also be a bad tube, bad cable, or fluorescent lighting, or some combination thereof. When you get into putting together a system like you're describing, you have to A/B all your connections to be sure where the problem starts. Couple of questions - Are you using the VG-8 for amp modeling? What are you getting from the RP-21 that the VG-8 doesn't give you? Have you tried running the RP-21 after the Output from the VG-8, and using it to split your signal between two amps?

 

I also have to wonder whether your amps are really well matched, for your application - seems like you have a 15-watt tube amp (the Champ) mixed with a 65-watt SS (the Bandit) with another SS amp thrown in on the other channel, unless I'm mistaken about the Bandit.

 

For power cabling, I use the Tree-trunk-branches approach, i.e. I plug a heavy-duty power strip into a good grounded wall outlet, then I run one or two more power strips off of that one. I've never exceeded the output of the master power strip (usually 15 amps), and I don't get ground loop issues. FWIW, I'm not running a multi-amp configuration, either, but if I were, this is still how I'd power it up.

[p90jr]

About $50... and can save you from being shocked to death.http://www.ebtechaudio.com/humxsplashbanner.jpg

 

http://www.ebtechaudio.com/humxdes.html

[cchuckc]

Those a good places to start looking. The Bandit and Super Champ worked well when I was just using one on each end. However, I am running it all through two power strips, which I wasn't doing before. That may be the problem.And I do have an A B switch between the Bandit and the Super Champ. Also, I have four pedals that are hooked into the RP 21, then into the VG-8, but I have never tried running out into the RP 21. I also have an FC 100 to the VG-8. Why do all this? Because the VG-8 has so much stuff it was overwhelming and I was familiar with my set up on the RP 21. Eventually the plan is to split it all up.

[cchuckc]

Will all the stuff I have overload the hum x? What if I use two of them, one for each power strip?

[Winston Psmith]

The Hum-x only outputs 6 amps, as opposed to the 15 amps most power strips output - I read this to mean you can't plug your power strip into the Hum-x, although you could probably plug one of your amps into a Hum-x, and then plug the Hum-x into one of you power strips. However, from your description of your set-up, I can see a number of places where noise or ground issues could enter the system. Starting from zero may be your best bet for finding and eliminating the noise issue.

 

First and foremost, start with your power strips. Try the tree-trunk-branches approach if you have three good quality power strips, if you only have two, plug one into the other, so they're running off of one circuit. Then, start going through your effects chain.

 

You want to check the Input and Output impedance of all your effects, to make sure you're not overloading anything. The rule of thumb is that the Input impedance of any given effects device should be 10 times the Output impedance of the device feeding into it. Most pedals are made to chain with other pedals, but you may be having a problem mixing pedals, and multi-fx. You also want to check that there isn't a problem with the pedals - some pedals, like the Line 6 Tonecore pedals, will create a ground loop, and one hell of a noise floor, if you daisy-chain them off one power supply.

 

I'm also wondering about your amp set-up. IIRC, the Fender Champ and the Marshall mini-stack should both be about 15 watts, but the Peavey Bandit came in a number of power configurations, up to 65 or 75 watts. Which are you using? I could see a problem if you have L & R Outs on the VG-8, or the Rp-21, and you're trying to feed three different amps, with different output ratings. I'd ask Myles if that was a good idea, multi-amp systems aren't my thing anymore.

 

Next, start re-assembling your system, and see where the noise comes in. Does it only happen when you plug in X amp, or pedal, or when you turn on a certain effect. Does it change if you're playing with single-coils, instead of HB's? Does it go away if you change the order of effects, or amps? These are all things to investigate.

 

I also have to ask why you're running the VG-8, with another multi-fx and a small line of pedals. The VG-8 is a handful, and the Roland manuals can be hard to dig through, but the VG-8 should be able to give you just about any guitar sound you can imagine. There are essentially two types of DSP systems in the VG-8, the COSM system (Composite Object Sound Modeling), which produces most of the effects and amp models, and something they called HRM (Harmonic Restructure Modeling), which 'synthesized' the different guitar models, and string inst. models. If you want to make a 10-string banjo with the VG-8, you probably can, but you won't get a regular Flute or Moog sound out of it. If you want to send me a photo of your set-up, or just tell me what the order of the signal chain is, I'll try to help more. I do use a mix of multi-fx, pedals and synths, so I'm used to doing this - I'm also used to the way these things can choose not to behave. Let me know what you discover.

[Caevan O’Shite]

While the Hum X probably is an excellent product and a good solution to some problems, I very much agree with WP' that a systematic process of elimination is in order to find the specific causes- or at least the points of entry- of your noise issues. Even with a Hum X or similar product, you'd have to go through this to find specifically where to use it!

 

I had to do just that recently- a process of elimination- to find the cause of an occasional, intermittent hum problem, and narrowed it down to either a faulty reverb-cable, or the input or output jack or other internal connection of the reverb-pan itself; for now, I use another amp altogether most of the time.

 

 

Overall, I think that a few Hum X's in the gig-bag to use on occasional unexpected hum/noise gremlins, would be an excellent idea for anybody who gigs a lot, just like having spare strings, tubes, an outlet-tester, batteries and power-supplies, etc. on hand; if my own gigging increases much, I will likely grab two or three of those, myself.

[cchuckc]

Thanks to all, and here's more info. The Peavey is not a Bandit, but I think it is 20 watt. When I bought the Marshall a few months back, I took everything apart and then put it all back together to work in the Marshall, and this time using two power strips, going to different wall plugs. So here's what I have. The main unit is the VG-8, with an Fc-100 foot board. On the effects loop I have a Digitech Delay, a Digitech Deluxe Reverb, a Rocktek Flanger, and a Boss CE-5 chorus, in that order, which then runs into the RP-20, and then back into the VG-8. From the VG-8 one channel runs to the Peavey and Fender Super Champ, stacked, and on an A/B, and the other to the Marshall. I has some light also, but I took them out last night and it still hums, maybe not as much. The new power strip seems a lot quieter than the old one. I am thinking maybe try the Hum x on the old strip? And plug the new one into it? Or maybe it's just time to reprogram the VG-8 and take the RP-20 out?

[Winston Psmith]

Okay, first of all - two power strips, going to two different wall plugs. Plug one into the other, like I suggested, so everything is running off of one power source - that eliminates the first chance for ground loops.

 

Next, your pedal array - you really should be able to get all those effects from the VG-8, IIRC, and looking over the RP-21, I see more mods and delays, and a tube overdrive. I could maybe see having the tube drive in the effects loop of the VG-8, but I'm not sure you need the rest of it. Keep in mind that you're likely to be stacking, or chaining multiple OD and Amp modeling effects, before you hit the front of any of your three guitar amps, another avenue for noise.

 

Finally, if you're using the multi-amp set-up to get different Amp tones, you should be able to get that from the VG-8 - if you're using it to get a surround-sound effect, you'd be better off with a matched set of powered speakers, or two keyboard amps rigged for stereo, like some of the Roland KB amps.

[cchuckc]

Thanks so much. Looks like I have a good weekend project now!

[cchuckc]

Tried the Hum X. No change; still had a bad hum. Changed it all piece by piece and I think the hum came from the RP-20. Took it out and no hum. Took everything off the effects loop of the VG-8 and ran a Space Chorus after the VG-8 to the Fender and the Peavey. Quiet as a mouse. Now I have to figure out how to add just a couple of pedals I want with Space Chorus and maintain stereo. Thanks everyone for the ideas. I guess the old RP-20 finally bit the dust.

[stamplicker]

Of, could just be a bad grounding issue in the RP-20... I'd see if there's a way you could ground one of the bottom screws and try that?

[Winston Psmith]

If this is the Line 6 Tonecore Space Chorus, you may not be able to daisy-chain it off the same power supply with other pedals, especially Delay & Reverb - I ran into this issue with my own Line 6 Tonecore pedals, couldn't even run the Echo Park & the Space Chorus off of the same 1 Spot, without a wall of noise. Any standard Boss/Ibanez-type 9-volt adapter will do, otherwise.

 

Sorry about the RP unit, but at least it seems to have solved the noise issue for now. You might see about replacing the power cable, in case that's part of the grounding problem. Good luck with the new set-up.

[pinkjimiphoton]

sounds to me like a failing electro or diode in the power supply of the rp20. them things should be dead quiet. does it do it when only the digitech pedal is used?

 

does digitech stuff still invert the input and output? that could be a phasing issue too, that reinforces the hum.

 

you could also try telescoping the shields of your cables.

 

what this means is get some microphone cables...2 conductors and a shield. choose one color conductor to be hot on all. solder the cold conductor AND THE SHIELD to ONE PLUG ONLY's ground plane, and connect the other to tip.

 

do this with all the cables...i'd reccomend using different plugs on the shielded ends for ease...then on the other end, connect hot and cold to the other plugs, but make sure the SHIELD is NOT connected at all on that end.

 

the end with the shield connected should go closest to earth...ie, plug the unshielded end into your guitar, and plug the shielded one into the first effect in line. plug it's output with the unshielded side of the cable you made into the next unit's input with the shielded side connected...do this until ya get back to your amps.

 

that should nuke quite a bit of the "hum".

 

also...on the small amps, do they have effect loops, or are you going into the normal guitar inputs? if ya got loops, plug into the fx returns on all amps, bypassing the preamps (tho you can run a preamp in the loop of the vg8 if ya want to as a master preamp for the whole system)...see, even what we consider to be "clean" amp settings as guitarists are generally high gain and severely distorted...and the first thing they wanna pick up (the preamps, i mean) is magnetic interference...you got it, hum.

 

since you're using digital devices that put out a lot of hum and noise, you need to do all you can to alleviate hum at the source. i mean, the devices DON'T necessarily share the same ground, odds are they have bipolar power supplies with positive and negative voltages and a "floating" ground anyways.

 

the units themselves can create this noise, particularly if two digital units are near each other, and connected. frustrating, i know...but it's the way it is.

 

if you read the owners manuals, it will clearly state they must recieve interference, and must be repositioned if they pick up interference.

 

try plugging them in in a different order would be my first reccomendation...ie, intentionally try and cause a ground loop with the power supplies and see if the noise goes away.

 

also, try clocking the units differently...a 90 degree turn on one unit could nuke the noise, too.

 

them ebtech things are full of snake oil. ALL they are is a 1:1 isolation transformer with maybe a little power supply filtering in the higher end ones.

[cchuckc]

An update. I reran all my connections, and took the RP-20 out of the loop. I now have the VG-8, running to a Behringer FX-600, and then to a Hardwire Stereo Chorus, then to the two amps, all stereo. This weekend I am going to add a Gig-FX Mega-Wah, also stereo. Sounds great. No hum, and quiet as a mouse, And I am using the Hum-X, for whatever good it's doing. Then I am going to rearrange the patches on the Vg-8 so that I have about forty usable patches that I get to quickly on the FC-200.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Cool.

 

By the way, how have you been making out trying to cop a sound similar to that of Russ Freeman's on David Benoit's "Every Step Of The Way"?

[cchuckc]

I am awfully close, and that was part of the motivation for the Mega-Wah, as it also a volume pedal. Trying to do swells on the Strat with the VG pick up on it is very difficult. The volume knob is small and not easy to reach or turn. A pedal should be easier. I will post and let everyone know.

[SleepDistance]

[video:youtube]tCMZuEx-8Ng&feature=fvst

This guitar tone sounds like the widely heard 80's Strat-through-chorus/delay tone. A very cool tone!

I think a lot of stuff has been suggested to achieve it. If it hasn't been suggested already, here's my input: guitarists in the 80's used to record tones like this sometimes going through a Rockman, into the board. The Rockman Sustainor preamp has settings that achieve this basic tone, and outputs for recording direct if you want, or it could be patched into an amp. Then add chorus, delay, reverb.

[cchuckc]

That is the sound! Isn't there some swell going on too? I will check out the Rockman.

[cchuckc]

How can I get that without having to buy a lot of stuff, using what I have now? Everything now is stereo and sounds fantastic! By the way folks, that Mega_Wah is pretty cool.

[Caevan O’Shite]

You can do any volume-swells with the volume-control(s) on the guitar itself.

 

A Strat-style guitar or one with Strat-like middle and bridge pickups will do very well; otherwise, the middle-position, both-pickups-on of most guitars will get you in the neighborhood.

 

Compression will help if you've got one or another means for it (I'd bet that several of the multi-effects devices you have provide some kind of compressor parameters).

 

A stereo-imaging wide/spread delay, Haas-effect, or stereo chorus or detune can help you here. Your DigiTech and Roland VG-8 should have some stereo wide/spread and/or Haas type effects available; use that, and add chorus or detuning to taste (mixed in somewhat subtly).

 

Any reverb might be best of it's a room or plate type with relatively short decay and clear but not splattery/tile-bright damping and reflection, mixed in subtly, not too obvious, just enough.

[cchuckc]

Thanks. Can't do swells on the Vg-8 because the dial is so small and awkward, but the pedal can do that.I looked around for a Lexican Vortex. Hard to find, but I have to think those Choir sounds have been incorporated elsewhere. Anyone know?

[Winston Psmith]

The lexicon MPX G2 had some effects that seem to be the same as some of the Vortex effects (Aerosol was one I remember), but when you look at the flow chart for the effects, they're not the same.