Fun with EQ

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

I've learned alot about EQing over the last couple months. Listening back to the mixes I'm happy but I'm not 100% sold. For one song, the bass and drum ratio isn't quite right. It's a little cluttered. Generally speaking, I've been scanning the EQ continuum looking for trouble spots and almost invariably, for bass and drums at least, 250 is a place that needs cutting. Also, around 500 seems to get cut a lot of the time. So I'm wondering if I'm just not cutting enough gain-wise. Again, generally, I'm cutting 3db with a thin Q. I'm thinking about widening the Q a little and going even further down with gain reduction to try and clear the clutter. The other thing is I've been boosting a little (3db at the most usually) on the lower frequencies and I may have gone a little too far. Those parts of the instruments would really shine and that's why i boosted them thinking I could accentuate those nice frequencies. Does anyone have any specific techniques that tend to work for medium heavy rock music? I want to eliminate the clutter. That seems to be what makes a good mix a good mix. No clutter. You can distinctly hear each element. It's actually a pleasure to listen to each element when the mix is right. My elements are still fighting each other a little bit.

[Ultravibe]

There are no hard and fast rules, but there are some techniques I use as starting points. -Roll off everything below 60Hz on everything except kick and bass guitar (for a rock mix - use your judgement if other instruments enter the picture). There is no reason for guitar, vocals, etc. to have sonic information cluttering up your bottom end. -Cut at about 300Hz with a sorta narrow band on guitars, vocals, keys. (Maybe you found the right spot with your 250Hz comment. Somewhere around there.) I just find there is a sort of muddy spot in there that doesn't sound too pleasing. -boost some things around the 4-6k range. Maybe guitars, maybe vocals. Things you want to cut through and stand out. Play with cutting some other things in there that will make the thing you are boosting stand out more. This is DELICATE! Be very judicious with this. -Don't just use EQ to separate. Remember panning, compression, reverb, etc. and combinations of these can all be used to separate instruments aurally. EQ one side of a stereo guitar just slightly, then squash the heck out of it and it is definitely separated, mostly through panning and compression, rather than just EQ. (Of course, this may not be the sound you are looking for - let the song decide...) Hope this helps. If I'm just blowing smoke up your ass and you already know all of this, just ignore me... Drew

[Mark LaCoste]

I only have more questions on the subject. LanceMo, how are you identifying your problem areas? Using a Parametric EQ, boosting a narrow band, and sweeping it? Ultravibe, how are you applying your below-60 cuts? I'm guessing you are confident enough to just apply a plug-in eq offline (assuming you use a daw).

[Ultravibe]

Yeah, using DP, just put in the EQ plug in on each track and use a lo-cut. The nice thing is that using the stock DP plug in only uses processing power for what you actually use. So even though you have capacity for an 8 band EQ, since yer only using the lo-cut, that's all the proc power it requires.

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Ultravibe: [b]There are no hard and fast rules, but there are some techniques I use as starting points. -Roll off everything below 60Hz on everything except kick and bass guitar (for a rock mix - use your judgement if other instruments enter the picture). There is no reason for guitar, vocals, etc. to have sonic information cluttering up your bottom end. -Cut at about 300Hz with a sorta narrow band on guitars, vocals, keys. (Maybe you found the right spot with your 250Hz comment. Somewhere around there.) I just find there is a sort of muddy spot in there that doesn't sound too pleasing. -boost some things around the 4-6k range. Maybe guitars, maybe vocals. Things you want to cut through and stand out. Play with cutting some other things in there that will make the thing you are boosting stand out more. This is DELICATE! Be very judicious with this. -Don't just use EQ to separate. Remember panning, compression, reverb, etc. and combinations of these can all be used to separate instruments aurally. EQ one side of a stereo guitar just slightly, then squash the heck out of it and it is definitely separated, mostly through panning and compression, rather than just EQ. (Of course, this may not be the sound you are looking for - let the song decide...) Hope this helps. If I'm just blowing smoke up your ass and you already know all of this, just ignore me... Drew[/b][/quote]Drew, I'm just now getting a sense of this stuff. I've read a couple books about it and have picked up a lot of info here. So, most anything anyone says about it tends to fill in the gaps for me. I agree about cutting the low end out for vocals and guitars. I just started doing that and it seems to clear away some of the clutter. How much do you typically cut at 300 Drew? 3db? 6db? 10 db?

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Mark LaCoste: [b]I only have more questions on the subject. LanceMo, how are you identifying your problem areas? Using a Parametric EQ, boosting a narrow band, and sweeping it? ).[/b][/quote]Mark, I'm probably not doing this the best way. I'm using SONAR 3 plug ins. Sonitus for example. It's a graphic EQ (right?) and I'll take one of the nodes and boost it 10 db or so. Then I'll sweep that around looking for sounds I like or don't like. And yes I use a fairly narrow band. I tend to start wider and then when I zero in on the frequency I'll narrow it if cutting. Widen it if boosting. I'm glad you asked this because now I'm gonna look into the parametric ones.

[Ultravibe]

Yer usin' a parametric. A graphic EQ has a bunch of fixed width, fixed frequency nodes that you can just cut or boost - think about the normal EQs you see in use in home stereos and such. A parametric lets you sweep through frequencies, and sometimes adjust Q (bandwidth). Alot of the older cheapy hardware units, as well as those built into mixing desk channels, didn't let you adjust the Q, but that problem has pretty much been done away with in software units. Some people have taken to calling the software EQs 'paragraphic' EQ. I guess because it gives you a visual representation of where on the spectrum you are cutting or boosting. Seems kinda silly. Just mention it so if you see paragraphic EQ somewhere, you know what the hell they're talking about. And the technique of sweeping around the bands to find an offending frequency and then cutting it (or a sweet frequency and boosting it) is a really good one. Boost a band and sweep through till you find something offensive and get rid of it! What could be simpler? Drew

[bvdd]

Lance, Here's what I discovered 20 years ago while mixing drums and bass. The problem frequency for me turned out to be 100-125hz. As soon as I cut in that area the drums and bass were defined nicely. Toms were the biggest offender but kick and snare were too. Today I often clean up my live band sound by lowering that same range on the main EQ. It takes good care of the MUD problem. Bill

[YourMotherShouldKnow]

[quote]Originally posted by Ultravibe: [b]Yer usin' a parametric. A graphic EQ has a bunch of fixed width, fixed frequency nodes that you can just cut or boost - think about the normal EQs you see in use in home stereos and such. A parametric lets you sweep through frequencies, and sometimes adjust Q (bandwidth). Alot of the older cheapy hardware units, as well as those built into mixing desk channels, didn't let you adjust the Q, but that problem has pretty much been done away with in software units. Some people have taken to calling the software EQs 'paragraphic' EQ. I guess because it gives you a visual representation of where on the spectrum you are cutting or boosting. Seems kinda silly. Just mention it so if you see paragraphic EQ somewhere, you know what the hell they're talking about. And the technique of sweeping around the bands to find an offending frequency and then cutting it (or a sweet frequency and boosting it) is a really good one. Boost a band and sweep through till you find something offensive and get rid of it! What could be simpler? Drew[/b][/quote]Like I said, I'm waaayy into parametrics! :thu: :D Man, this is helpin' a lot. I just went through and cut the low end out of a bunch of tracks, and also played with the 60-500 range on about 7 songs. It's better. Thanks alot Drew. Bill, I'm working that 100-125 area. Are you saying you generally cut the bass and drums out there? I spose it depends on what you're looking for...I've been trying to find 2 sweet spots on the bass from 60-200 or so and I boost a tad there (and cut the surrounding area)...then drusm...sometimes I cut and sometimes I boost. On the currect projects the drum recording varies from song to song. Which is by my own thoroughly unintentional design. In any event, that freq area has a dynamic effect on the song.

[KenElevenShadows]

What you can also do is use a high-pass filter and completely eliminate frequencies under a specific range. So, for example, if there is nothing but rumble in your guitar tracks under, say, 80 Hz, you can get rid of it with a high-pass filter. This effectively eliminates all the other stuff under the frequency that you set (in this case, 80 Hz). You can do this for voices, whatever. I even have been applying some of this to the kick and bass, eliminating the super low end. It helps a lot since this low end sucks up a lot of power from amps trying to reproduce this, and many home systems cannot reproduce frequencies under 20-30 Hz effectively anyway.

[Ultravibe]

Yeah, Ken, but when they can reproduce those 60Hz lows on a kick drum.... man, it is thumpin'!!

[KenElevenShadows]

[quote]Originally posted by Ultravibe: [b]Yeah, Ken, but when they can reproduce those 60Hz lows on a kick drum.... man, it is thumpin'!![/b][/quote]Oh, totally. I am definitely not saying to roll THAT stuff off. You know, it's a case by case basis, but most of the time, I'm talking about cleaning up stuff below 30-35Hz. You can still have a super thumpin' kick and bass that hits you right in the chest with frequencies above 35 Hz!!! Generally speaking, the faster the tempo, the more likely I am to roll off more of the bottom. Otherwise, it seems to turn into mud and distortion quicker.

[bvdd]

[quote]Originally posted by LanceMo: [b][QUOTE] Bill, I'm working that 100-125 area. Are you saying you generally cut the bass and drums out there? I spose it depends on what you're looking for...I've been trying to find 2 sweet spots on the bass from 60-200 or so and I boost a tad there (and cut the surrounding area)...then drusm...sometimes I cut and sometimes I boost. On the currect projects the drum recording varies from song to song. Which is by my own thoroughly unintentional design. In any event, that freq area has a dynamic effect on the song.[/b][/quote]Specifically in my case, I've often found a muddy boomy sound that seems to be at it's worst with all toms, kick, and bass .. in that order. After playing around for weeks with 2 30 band EQ's, I discovered that 100-125 hz was the bad guy. I have both lowered those hz, and buried them completely ..depending on how boomy it is. The thing I was most pleased with was this: that 'punch you in the gut/and low as your balls' feeling was not only still there but ENHANCED. Bill

[BrianPeet]

There's some great advice in this thread, but I would add two things. 1. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted trying to tighten up the bass range while monitoring at low volume. It's not the same. It's been mentioned many times on this board, but it's worth repeating... use a SPL meter and work for a while at around 85dB. If you spend all your time getting a kick ass bass/kick sound while monitoring at 60dB, it will KILL your car stereo when you crank it. :( 2. Put on a CD of a pro track with the type of bass sounds you are going for. A/B constantly at several volumes. Don't kid yourself. Is your mix anything like the sounds you love? At low volume? High volume? Headphones?