Tube combo as a stage monitor?

[Griffinator]

So I've been banging away through a beat up old Roland combo amp for quite a while, and I'm looking seriously at something in a tube amp that I can really dime out on stage and have it be just enough volume for me to use as a monitor while my signal gets fed through the PA.

 

Question: How big is enough to do that without blowing my head off? Would a 5 watter accomplish this task? Or should I drop down to one of those funky 1-watt numbers like the Blackstar?

[Caevan O’Shite]

Well, for some sort of reference for ya, I similarly use a Carvin Vintage 33, a (nominally rated) 33 watt 4xEL84 1x12 combo.

 

I have used it with and without "real" monitors for small gigs with drums, bass, and an overly loud "rhythm guitarist", with the amp set to the side and facing diagonally across the stage area, instead of pointed directly at the audience, usually unmiced but sometimes miced or D/I'd to the PA, in parallel with a digital-modeler/multi-effects unit also going direct to the PA.

 

I run its "Soak" (pre-gain) around 3, 3.5 or so, and "Volume 2" (master volume for this channel) around "Noon" or higher; this gives me a good, fat tone and dynamic response that easily cleans up VERY nicely with "touch" and the guitar's volume-control, getting nice "natural" overdrive and compressed distortion as I turn the guitar's volume-knob further up and up. It compresses more than it gets louder past 6 or 7 or so. (It does NOT sound particularly "metal".) I never even bother with the amps clean/rhythm channel.

 

I have wondered if half the output-tubes and wattage in an amp with a similar sized or larger output-transformer and power-supply, etc. would do as well for my applications, as it often seems that there's a bit more volume on-tap than I need, when I want it cranked for a fatter output-stage overdrive tone than the buzzier preamp-stage distortion gives up...

[Electric Biscuit]

I run a 15 watt Egnator Tweaker and it's loud enough that I couldn't crank it with it beside me. I've played the 5 watt Blackstar amp and it was a good volume for that, I think.

[Bluesape]

I knew a guy who used an old Twin Reverb angled back next to him as a monitor, miked to the PA.

[Griffinator]

So 5 watts at damned near breakup should be just about right on an angle stand in front of me from the floor, is the gist of what I'm hearing here.

 

All I'm after is something I can ride right to the edge of tube breakup for clean stuff, and stomp the old TS-9 when I need some crunch, doing all the above while still maintaining a reasonable stage volume.

[Terrell]

It depends on the music you're playing...

[Griffinator]

Rock (not metal).

[pinkjimiphoton]

Well, for some sort of reference for ya, I similarly use a Carvin Vintage 33, a (nominally rated) 33 watt 4xEL84 1x12 combo.

 

I have used it with and without "real" monitors for small gigs with drums, bass, and an overly loud "rhythm guitarist", with the amp set to the side and facing diagonally across the stage area, instead of pointed directly at the audience, usually unmiced but sometimes miced or D/I'd to the PA, in parallel with a digital-modeler/multi-effects unit also going direct to the PA.

 

I run its "Soak" (pre-gain) around 3, 3.5 or so, and "Volume 2" (master volume for this channel) around "Noon" or higher; this gives me a good, fat tone and dynamic response that easily cleans up VERY nicely with "touch" and the guitar's volume-control, getting nice "natural" overdrive and compressed distortion as I turn the guitar's volume-knob further up and up. It compresses more than it gets louder past 6 or 7 or so. (It does NOT sound particularly "metal".) I never even bother with the amps clean/rhythm channel.

 

I have wondered if half the output-tubes and wattage in an amp with a similar sized or larger output-transformer and power-supply, etc. would do as well for my applications, as it often seems that there's a bit more volume on-tap than I need, when I want it cranked for a fatter output-stage overdrive tone than the buzzier preamp-stage distortion gives up...

 

 

kev, go see a tech and have him hook up a jack on the amp (if ya don't mind an extra hole) and connect it to the grounds of two of your output tubes. then run a regular one button footswitch to it, and you can switch between 33 and about 15 watts output. if ya lift the ground on the tubes, they will not be in the circuit, and will cut your output accordingly.

if you use a switching jack, your amp will function normally when the external switch is not plugged in, and when the switch IS plugged in, either lift the ground or ground it.

if not comfortable with working inside the chassis, don't try this yourself.

 

i could draw you up a simple layout/schematic if you want to see what i'm talking about.

 

fwiw, 15 watts is plenty to work with if you have a dynamic drummer.

 

what i find best in the small amp arena is to run it relatively clean, and use a boost or overdrive to crank it up for leads...a pair of tube screamers is popular for this kind of setup.

 

peace.

[Caevan O’Shite]

So 5 watts at damned near breakup should be just about right on an angle stand in front of me from the floor, is the gist of what I'm hearing here.

 

All I'm after is something I can ride right to the edge of tube breakup for clean stuff, and stomp the old TS-9 when I need some crunch, doing all the above while still maintaining a reasonable stage volume.

 

Maybe- depending on gain, robustness of output-transformer and power-supply, and also the speaker.

 

A few good candidates that you might try would be:

 

* a silverface Champ- the ORIGINAL crank-it-up low-watt, "PTP" tube-amp, huh? Takes well to Tube Screamers and such pedals, too...

 

 

* a Fuchs Lucky 7- 7 watts with a single EL34 (NOT EL84, EL34! ), that can be swapped and rebiased for a 6V6 to put out about 4 or 5 watts. THIS amp will almost CERTAINLY be PLENTY loud enough for you- perhaps even too loud with the EL34! Sounds like a big amp that got hit by a shrink-ray, instead of a little amp that's trying desperately to be bigger. It's got a LARGE "big amp" output-transformer and a worthy power-supply, and works well with or without pedals. Somewhat fussy with speakers and cabs, though- perhaps its only such 'weakness', being pretty bright, needing (IMHO) some beef and fat in the lows and mids from a speaker and cab- and it doesn't hurt to go with a speaker that can be pushed to a little compression and breakup by relatively low watts... Good candidates (IMHO) would be: Celestion G12H 30 and/or Alnico Blue; Weber AlNiCo 1230 or AlNiCo 1230-55; Scumback 15 or 30 watt Scumnico and/or Scumback H55, H75, or H75-LHDC; Hellatone 30; Warehouse Guitar Speakers 12" Reaper or 12" Reaper 55hz; Eminence "Red Coat"-series Wizard...

 

Now, I'd think that used specimens of the original, simpler 'no frills' Lucky 7 should start turning up with decreasing prices since Fuchs came out with the Lucky 7 II, which adds reverb, channel-switching, and a bunch of bells & whistles- for the same price as the MUCH simpler original... Mine is not for sale.

 

 

* a Fender Princeton Recording-Amp This amp really seems like a VERY good match for your described mission-statement posted above- IF you can find one...(I see that as I type this, Zzounds-dot-com has a couple in stock...)

 

It's an all-tube blackface-style Princeton Reverb 1x10" PCB "reissue"- with the addition of factory-original built-in Tube Screamer style overdrive, compressor, AND "Trans-Impedance" attenuator- all of which work beautifully, together or separately.

 

Twiddling the dials around and trying different guitars, you begin hearing familiar tones reminiscent of lot of classic recordings from over the years, particularly with Nashville and LA accents. Nice classic compressor-squeezed Tele tones, and fat low/medium-gain overdrive with a Les Paul. The attenuator- perhaps the amps coolest overall feature, less easily trumped by separate free-standing pedals and devices- really works well without leaching off the treble and harmonic-overtones like so often happens. This amp is on the list of those that I really would love to have someday, "just because", no matter what other amps I may have.

[Terrell]

A valve junior might be a good choice for $99... Especially, if you are looking for less color than workman like reproduction with power sag.

 

Don't expect to get no low end from a 1x12 in your face with 5 watts though.

[Caevan O’Shite]

A valve junior might be a good choice for $99... Especially, if you are looking for less color than workman like reproduction with power sag.

 

Don't expect to get no low end from a 1x12 in your face with 5 watts though.

 

Good call, ESPECIALLY for such low cost (I guess- I haven't tried one); you're also right on the leaner beef of most low-watt amps through single speakers. Still, a decent 12" is generally gonna be mo' better bigger bottomery than a 10", 8", or 6" found in many little low-watters...

 

kev, go see a tech and have him hook up a jack on the amp (if ya don't mind an extra hole) and connect it to the grounds of two of your output tubes. then run a regular one button footswitch to it, and you can switch between 33 and about 15 watts output. if ya lift the ground on the tubes, they will not be in the circuit, and will cut your output accordingly.

if you use a switching jack, your amp will function normally when the external switch is not plugged in, and when the switch IS plugged in, either lift the ground or ground it.

if not comfortable with working inside the chassis, don't try this yourself.

 

i could draw you up a simple layout/schematic if you want to see what i'm talking about.

 

fwiw, 15 watts is plenty to work with if you have a dynamic drummer.

 

what i find best in the small amp arena is to run it relatively clean, and use a boost or overdrive to crank it up for leads...a pair of tube screamers is popular for this kind of setup.

 

peace.

 

First off- THANKS!

 

I have toyed with the idea of simply (yeah simply! Hahh! ) swapping out the output-transformer and making other relatively minor changes to run it as a 2xEL84 with half the output watts. I could probably easily swap out the O/T for that of a Carvin Vintage 16...

 

I'd also thought about installing a switch for Pentode/Triode operation of the output-tubes... maybe also get a custom tube-emulating Copper Cap SS rectifier from Weber for a little more sag and compression... cough up the coin for a Celestion Alnico Blue or Gold, Scumback Scumnico, or Austin Speaker Works Elegante...

 

 

Now, pjp, the "grounds" you cite switching-out are the same as the cathodes, right? In the case of your proposed mod- and this being a cathode-biased amp- isn't this more or less the same as simply pulling half of the output-tubes (in which case the impedance-selector would need to be switched to half the required impedance), excepting that the heater-filaments for the two switched-out (as opposed to pulled out) tubes would still be drawing current? And, being cathode-biased, the biasing would be thrown way off by doing so, as well, right?

[Griffinator]

I'm kind of a "let the bass man do his job" type of guy regarding bottom end. As long as I get a decent chunk out of it, it's all good.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I'm kind of a "let the bass man do his job" type of guy regarding bottom end. As long as I get a decent chunk out of it, it's all good.

 

Start trying a Champ or Valve Junior and go from there, then...

 

Y' know, another potential candidate with some nice extra features might be a used Carvin Vintage 16 1x12, which uses a Pentode/Triode Switch for the output-tubes (2xEL84) to switch between 16 and 5 watts...

[pinkjimiphoton]

A valve junior might be a good choice for $99... Especially, if you are looking for less color than workman like reproduction with power sag.

 

Don't expect to get no low end from a 1x12 in your face with 5 watts though.

 

Good call, ESPECIALLY for such low cost (I guess- I haven't tried one); you're also right on the leaner beef of most low-watt amps through single speakers. Still, a decent 12" is generally gonna be mo' better bigger bottomery than a 10", 8", or 6" found in many little low-watters...

 

kev, go see a tech and have him hook up a jack on the amp (if ya don't mind an extra hole) and connect it to the grounds of two of your output tubes. then run a regular one button footswitch to it, and you can switch between 33 and about 15 watts output. if ya lift the ground on the tubes, they will not be in the circuit, and will cut your output accordingly.

if you use a switching jack, your amp will function normally when the external switch is not plugged in, and when the switch IS plugged in, either lift the ground or ground it.

if not comfortable with working inside the chassis, don't try this yourself.

 

i could draw you up a simple layout/schematic if you want to see what i'm talking about.

 

fwiw, 15 watts is plenty to work with if you have a dynamic drummer.

 

what i find best in the small amp arena is to run it relatively clean, and use a boost or overdrive to crank it up for leads...a pair of tube screamers is popular for this kind of setup.

 

peace.

 

First off- THANKS!

 

I have toyed with the idea of simply (yeah simply! Hahh! ) swapping out the output-transformer and making other relatively minor changes to run it as a 2xEL84 with half the output watts. I could probably easily swap out the O/T for that of a Carvin Vintage 16...

 

I'd also thought about installing a switch for Pentode/Triode operation of the output-tubes... maybe also get a custom tube-emulating Copper Cap SS rectifier from Weber for a little more sag and compression... cough up the coin for a Celestion Alnico Blue or Gold, Scumback Scumnico, or Austin Speaker Works Elegante...

 

 

Now, pjp, the "grounds" you cite switching-out are the same as the cathodes, right? In the case of your proposed mod- and this being a cathode-biased amp- isn't this more or less the same as simply pulling half of the output-tubes (in which case the impedance-selector would need to be switched to half the required impedance), excepting that the heater-filaments for the two switched-out (as opposed to pulled out) tubes would still be drawing current? And, being cathode-biased, the biasing would be thrown way off by doing so, as well, right?

 

for all intents and purposes, yep, same as pulling out two of the tubes. since it's a cathode biased amp, you technically would wanna find a good compromise for the cathode resistor, but in practice, most likely close enough. with a simple 3pdt stompswitch, you could not only switch the grounds, hell, ya could switch the resistors too if ya wanted to...then you don't have to switch the speaker impedance, either. i mean, even the speaker impedance thing isn't all that critical in most cases...some would argue that, but the truth is that a speaker isn't a resistance, it's an impedance...it's resistance changes with frequency.

an 8 ohm speaker is REALLY only 8 ohms with a 1k sine wave being fed into it...if ya hook up a meter to it while playing, you'll see it moves all over the place, including NEGATIVE...that's right, in some cases, it's conducting, not reacting.

pretty wack, huh? hell, half the time, if there's no specific switching for 4/8/16 ohms, and it has two speaker output jacks, it's all just using one tap on the output transformer anyways. i'm tellin' ya, it's fuggin' wack, bro.

you don't need to change the output transformer...even if ya pull two of the tubes, it will still bias close enough in the long run in most cases.

a pentode/triode switch won't make all that much diff in my experience, i put one in a few amps (if ya have one, DO NOT SWITCH IT WITH THE AMP ON!!!)...alot of peeps call that class a, but it's not, tho it sounds a little more like it. you don't lose that much output with that particular mod.

most dual or quad tubed amps are already biased at class ab2 (if memory serves...don't quote me, haven't messed with tubes in a while) already to get more balls out of them...that's close to class a.

the diff between the two is that with class a, the tubes are all on at once, one hundred percent of the time (in theory) while in class ab, one is on, one is off (in theory)...almost like a humbucker, in a way...because the two sides are out of phase, it cancels alot of the noise ya get with class a. in class ab2, you're biasing it so one tube is on all the way, the other on partially...real common.

there's all kinds of variants and stuff, really.

but yah, you can do it any number of different ways. what's nice about lifting the ground on two of the tubes, is that ya can do it while playing...if there's no ground, there's no signal, as the tube can't operate unless grounded.

check out the ultimate tone series of books by kevin o'connor (london sound, google 'em) if ya wanna learn more. he's the ultimate guru with this stuff...and has some really surprising insights.

if ya wanna try this, ask myles about it...i'm sure he can tell ya more than i can about it.

peace!

 

oh yeah, yes, they'd still be drawing current to the heaters, cuz that's separate from the rest of the tube's circuitry...for all intents, lifting the ground as i suggest would be almost like putting them on standby...but safer than trying to switch the b+ voltage! the cathodes of the tubes are only dealing with a couple volts, so it's much safer.

and yes also, the cathodes are what goes to ground, usually thru a good sized resistor...without knowing specifically the amp in question, i can't postulate on what exactly they are..would have to find a schematic.

but again, cathode biasing is pretty forgiving. if ya have a good compromise for the cathode resistor, you'll find the amp will be "in the ballpark" either way as far as the biasing is concerned. alot of people think bias "has to" be an exact voltage...well, it doesn't. there is NO "correct" bias, it's different with every circuit. technically, it's biased correctly when the crossover distortion is minimized..according to some.

in practice, tho, there's a fairly wide range over which the amp is biased "correctly"...you can set it anywhere pretty much, as long as it doesn't make the plates in the tube start to glow red and melt. some folks like the amp biased cold, the amp will be cleaner, and less subject to dynamics and distortion...alot of metal guys like that...or it can be hotter, where the amp will have more dynamics and distort faster. it's all subjective, really, and ultimately comes down to what YOU, the player likes best.

 

hope i didn't give too much info...lol. it can be a little wack trying to explain and understand this stuff. that's the great thing about tubes...you don't need to be a rocket scientist with a slide rule and a propellor cap!

[picker]

It kinda depends on a few things; what your bandmates are using, what size speaker is in the cab, how big the rooms you're playing are, and what kind of tone you're looking for. I don't think 5 watts would get you over a heavy-handed drummer if you're running a clean setting on your amp at any time. 10 to 15 watts would work better for that. I used a old 15 watt silverface Princeton with one 10" speaker with a band that had 2 guitars, bass, drums and keyboard. We were running everything into the PA, and I had to keep the amp volume down to keep it from messing up the mix. It worked out pretty well.

A Fender Blues Jr. would probably do what you want, and it even has a master volume.

Terrell's recommendation of the Epiphone Valve Jr isn't a bad idea, if you go for the head rather than the combo. You can mod them to sound pretty much any way you want pretty cheap. You will want to use it with a minimum of a 12" speaker, or a 2x10" cab. If you really want to move some air(and you don't mind hauling a big cab around), put it on a 4x12". You'll scare folks with that...

[Griffinator]

It kinda depends on a few things; what your bandmates are using, what size speaker is in the cab, how big the rooms you're playing are, and what kind of tone you're looking for. I don't think 5 watts would get you over a heavy-handed drummer if you're running a clean setting on your amp at any time. 10 to 15 watts would work better for that. I used a old 15 watt silverface Princeton with one 10" speaker with a band that had 2 guitars, bass, drums and keyboard. We were running everything into the PA, and I had to keep the amp volume down to keep it from messing up the mix. It worked out pretty well.

A Fender Blues Jr. would probably do what you want, and it even has a master volume.

Terrell's recommendation of the Epiphone Valve Jr isn't a bad idea, if you go for the head rather than the combo. You can mod them to sound pretty much any way you want pretty cheap. You will want to use it with a minimum of a 12" speaker, or a 2x10" cab. If you really want to move some air(and you don't mind hauling a big cab around), put it on a 4x12". You'll scare folks with that...

 

Well, there again, I'm not really trying to "move some air" - just put it on a kickback stand and use it as a personal monitor. I do intend to run a pre-out off it into a second (Peavey Chorus 212, also on a kickback stand) amp for the drummer's monitor.

 

The aim here is to make the sound guy's life easier, and save some wear and tear on my back in the process.

[sammyp]

i've done tons of gigs with fender blues jr - 15 watts and pro jr - 10 watts ...i run pedals with them - comp and an overdrive

[Griffinator]

Question being, Sammy, is did you have them opened up to near-breakup, or were you limited by volume to keeping the gain down?

[p90jr]

I bought a Vox AC15 and an Ampeg Jet 12-R (also 15 watts) to use as you describe for gigs. My experience is that unless you have a jazz drummer who can control his volume extremely well it doesn't work for me... the drums overpower 15 watts. I guess the bigger problem is that drums make a "local" racket while amps direct a beam off into the distance. I've been fighting with a soundguy I work with a lot over this... I use amp stands to kick the amps back but when I get it up to where I'm comfortable with hearing it right next to the kit the soundguy swears it's bouncing off the ceiling and dominating the mix in the room. I told him if he gets the drummers to use electronic drums I'll just use a sansamp and inner ear monitors and he can have his studio perfect balanced mix.

[Larryz]

I like about 60 rms out the door watts on stage...you can always turn down and enjoy your sound at the 1watt volume level while miking the amp...but it's there when you need it if the PA or the sound man dimes you out of the mix and you just can't take it anymore...

[Griffinator]

I like about 60 rms out the door watts on stage...you can always turn down and enjoy your sound at the 1watt volume level while miking the amp...but it's there when you need it if the PA or the sound man dimes you out of the mix and you just can't take it anymore...

 

60 rms tube watts? Holy hell, my little Randall 80w SS unit blows everyone out of the room at half-mast...

[pinkjimiphoton]

i usually run a 65 watt cyber deluxe about half way up, or a cyber twin in big rooms or outside...

 

or my ....ahem...behringer...

lol

[Griffinator]

Yeah, see, I'm not into lugging a 4x12 onstage and then having to sacrifice that beautiful breakup because it's just too damned loud for the room. Plus, let's face it, the sound guy really does get pissed off when your half-stack is drowning out the drums and the PA itself.

 

I want to bust the little bastard wide open and have it be enough for me to hear myself standing 4-5 feet from the drums.

[Larryz]

My earplug days are over and now I'm "just an old rock and roller play'en music in a back street bar"...so I just plug acoustic in to the PA and leave the big stuff at home...I don't think I've ever gone beyond half way on the old 60w tube amp and nothing above 4 on the 100w twin (back when I could still move it around)...weight means more to me now that wattage...and my little SS ZTclub12 weighs in at 22lbs but can pack a wallop...

[Griffinator]

Yeah, I'm not much of a fan of screeching loud for the sake of screeching loud either. I like my eardrums just fine without the high-tech "ventilation" shafts.

[Caevan O’Shite]

...something in a tube amp that I can really dime out on stage and have it be just enough volume for me to use as a monitor while my signal gets fed through the PA.

 

All I'm after is something I can ride right to the edge of tube breakup for clean stuff, and stomp the old TS-9 when I need some crunch, doing all the above while still maintaining a reasonable stage volume.

 

I want to bust the little bastard wide open and have it be enough for me to hear myself standing 4-5 feet from the drums.

 

I think I'm getting what you're goal here is... you want to bust the little bastard wide open and have it be enough for you to hear yourself standing 4-5 feet from the drums, right?

 

 

With all due respect to some of the other posters on this thread, I think- I know- that 15 to 30 watts of tube-amp will EASILY do what you want; even less than 15 watts would probably do it, too, and probably even better- like 12 watts, 7 watts, maybe even 5 watts.

 

When cranked right up and controlled by the guitar's volume-knobs and your "touch" (turned Full-Up AT THE AMP, turned Down AT THE GUITAR, y'all ), you can get a wide range of clean to overdriven and distorted tones, even more with a pedal, like, Idunno, like, maybe you could stomp an old TS-9 when you need some crunch, doing all the above while still maintaining a reasonable stage volume...

[Griffinator]

That's pretty much what I've been driving at the whole time, how small can I go and still be able to hear it.

 

So, you're suggesting that I should err to the side of caution at 12-15W, Caevan?

[Caevan O’Shite]

I think you should try a few different options, maybe borrow some amps or get a store that you're going to buy an amp from to let you test-drive a couple; if I understand you, I do think that the amps I suggested above would do for ya, one probably better or best.

 

While it's not cheap, that Princeton Recording-Amp has the benefit of a built-in attenuator that's tailor-made for the amp, and acts more or less like a master-volume minus the suckage of glory-tone output-section overdrive, not to mention the built-in TS-style OD and compressor.

 

 

A Fender Champ, like a good example of a "silverface" or "blackface" Champ (sf Champs were generally about the same as bf ones) or a good clone-thereof, might do you well; such an amp coupled to a 12" speaker one way or another, along with a TS OD in front of it, would be even more likely to do you very nicely. A variety of newer-ish little low-watt "tweed" and Tolex tube Fenders, Peaveys, Carvins, Epis, etc. would probably do you pretty well, too.

 

I used to have a particularly killer silverface Champ that I still kick myself for ever parting with; it had an INCREDIBLE "natural" overdrive when hit hard at its input by a 15db or greater "clean boost"- it had a sound like splitting wood, if that conveys my meaning...

 

 

The Fuchs Lucky 7 would easily be loud enough for you for what you want, especially with the right cab and speaker(s).

 

 

I know that my 30-ish watt Carvin Vintage 33 1x12 combo is often too loud for me to put it to its "sweet-spot" where its output-section overdrives into a fatter, smoother, warmer "lead" tone with the pre-gain at about 3 or 3.5 or so; I strongly suspect that its 16 watt cousin would do well, and yet still might get me asked to turn it down. (I really do get asked to turn-UP more often than turn-down, though, all-around! I generally try to fit the situation and not be abusive with the sheer volume.)

 

 

Had I the cab and speakers that I want for it (and will eventually get), I'd probably be using my Lucky 7 instead of the Carvin much of the time.

 

 

With either amp, a direct-send or a mic would put me through the PA and- when available- stage-monitors, and when I can't be quite loud enough for getting desired controlled feedback from the amp's speaker (even when right on top of it), I have a Sustainiac Model C (feedback-inducing vibrating-transducer gizmo) that is incredibly cool for stuff like, say, faking the layered 5/4 intro and bridge to "White Room" with descending-triads feeding-back and morphing into harmonic-overtones, at literally any volume; but I digress...

[Terrell]

There is also this: http://www.fractalaudio.com/images/bc_wedge.jpg

 

Tube Amp Wedge