SteveC Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Personally, I hate retuning (although occasionally I'll drop the E string down to D). Everything sounds funny to me when an E is not an E. A third reason is that things sound funny. I have been told buy a keyboardist that while it is very easy to detune a MIDI keyboard to play in an easier key, it can make one feel uncomfortable because things are not in the right place. My son an my daughter have perfect pitch and can tell if a key does not play the right note. I do not have perfect pitch, but when I play along with something overheard on the radio, I get my fingers in the right spots almost always on first try, even if I cannot tell what notes I am hearing. I am not sure if tricking this sort of sense with detuning can make some people feel uncomfortable. I agree with you and Jeremy. I don't have perfect pitch either (thankfully) but things do sound funny when transposed. I'm always the guy in the band that say original key or let's not do the tune. Not only are things in the wrong place, but songs (obviously I guess) don't sound the same. Keys have sounds and tones and characters. Beethoven chose D minor for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Beethoven chose D minor for a reason. Because it's the saddest of all keys... I agree with you that different keys have different colors/characters. I wonder how much pop songwriters (including rock, blues, R&B, etc.) think about that, or if key is more often determined by the range of the singers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I'm gonna say a lot has to do with singers, but there's probably a little bit of it sounding cool in a certain key that came about from some noodling between tunes or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 In my humble opinion it's all about the singer. If the singer can't sing it change the key. Or try singing it an octave lower/higher. If it doesn't sound right after the change then drop the song. Or if the song is that important get somebody else to sing it. Having the singer strain to sing a song is not a good idea regardless of how much of a bother it is to the musicians. In regards to songwriting I would think songwriters write to their range and later it gets tailored unless they have a clear person in mind to sing the song and know their range. Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 b5p +1. Who would insist on bring in a song that the singer doesn't have a hope in hell of hitting? (oh, yes, my ex newer-rock project!) Sammy Hagar sounds like CRAP an octave lower (same project - better still, sing it in Sammy's pitch until you can't, then drop an octave during the high parts. Special!) You can get away with key changes more easily with old music than newer music - older music has already been covered a bunch of times in different keys (both commercially and locally) and it doesn't sound as odd. The guitar in the band that starts having issue with "the integrity of the song" is a YouTube Left-Hand, Tab-Memorizing hack that can't change the key becuse that's how he memorized playing it (yes, I've had them in bands). Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 This thing about it feeling weird in a different key. I'm doing it a lot with my solo thing, and it's true. It does feel real weird, but only at first. A couple days later and the new key isn't weird anymore. It reminds me of the record player days. I had a skip in "Stairway To Heaven". After awhile, the dropped beat sounded right and when I heard the song on the radio it sounded wrong. Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Songs that I would NEVER change key: Anything anthemic. Stairway. Freebird. Songs like that. They have been played and replayed on the air so much and so many people own or have owned that music that trying to play them in a different key a) sounds awful and b) makes the audience thinks it sounds awful. And since I'm all about not having my a$$ beat by a crowd of bikers for butchering Freebird ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It's not the song that sounds funny in a different key, it's that my bass sounds funny when it is detuned and an E is not an E. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 It's not the song that sounds funny in a different key, it's that my bass sounds funny when it is detuned and an E is not an E. +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Songs that I would NEVER change key: Anything anthemic. Stairway. Freebird. Songs like that. They have been played and replayed on the air so much and so many people own or have owned that music that trying to play them in a different key a) sounds awful and b) makes the audience thinks it sounds awful. And since I'm all about not having my a$$ beat by a crowd of bikers for butchering Freebird ... I wonder about this, but it reminds me of a story. My band played at my house for my 50th birthday out on our front porch, so all the neighbors on the street got to hear. The next day one of them (who had not come to the party) came up to me and said: "hey, I enjoyed the band, but you played Stormy Monday in A and it should have been in G." Now, this guy happens to play guitar and is a bit of a music geek. But beyond someone like him, I doubt there are many people in any typical audience who could identify the key of any song, let alone a well known tune like Stairway or Freebird. "Everyone wants to change the world, but no one thinks of changing themselves." Leo Tolstoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The next day one of them (who had not come to the party) came up to me and said: "hey, I enjoyed the band, but you played Stormy Monday in A and it should have been in G."Dingleberry. A song "should be" in any key anybody wants to play it in. Dumbass. "Geek" is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The next day one of them (who had not come to the party) came up to me and said: "hey, I enjoyed the band, but you played Stormy Monday in A and it should have been in G."Dingleberry. A song "should be" in any key anybody wants to play it in. Dumbass. "Geek" is right. Well, I had the last laugh, because I consulted a buddy of mine who is a professional blues musician in New Orleans and a historian of the genre, who told me that it was originally written in Ab, even though it's most often performed in G. But to your point, Chad, I agree, whatever key works for the performers is the "right" key. "Everyone wants to change the world, but no one thinks of changing themselves." Leo Tolstoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Does he have locked down tuners on his guitar? I once played with a guy who absolutely refused to tune down because of that. Yeah that could be a problem. Doesn't he have another axe he can de-tune and bring with him? Most guitards I know at least have a couple. This. My current band has a healthy mixture of different tunings in our list. Since all three of my axes are lockers, I have one for standard, one for flat, and one for dropped D. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 The next day one of them (who had not come to the party) came up to me and said: "hey, I enjoyed the band, but you played Stormy Monday in A and it should have been in G."Dingleberry. A song "should be" in any key anybody wants to play it in. Dumbass. "Geek" is right. Especially a goddamned blues standard. I would have swatted him upside the head and said "Look, retard, it's a standard - you play it in whatever damned key the vocalist is most comfortable singing it!" A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Some songs that start with guitar introductions that feature open string chord riffs like Stairway or Sweet Home Alabama would be tough to do in a lower key. You could go higher with a capo. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Thorne Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Some songs that start with guitar introductions that feature open string chord riffs like Stairway or Sweet Home Alabama would be tough to do in a lower key. You could go higher with a capo. If, in fact, you ever play Stairway or Sweet Home Alabama...:grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Some songs that start with guitar introductions that feature open string chord riffs like Stairway or Sweet Home Alabama would be tough to do in a lower key. You could go higher with a capo. Sweet Home is for uncreative chumps who can't wow a crowd without playing a sure "hit" song. Ironically, I lost out on a guitar gig with one band because, despite having learned their entire set list (45 songs) in 2 weeks and absolutely destroying the audition, including backup vocals on a number of pieces (something they didn't even ask for), I did not know on instant recall how to play Sweet Home (because I never, ever, ever play it unless threatened with mob violence) despite the fact that it was NOT on the set list, but rather on a "supplemental" list (an additional 10 songs) that were supposed to be "in case of fire" type of pieces... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 "hey, I enjoyed the band, but you played Stormy Monday in A and it should have been in G." I have heard Stormy done in all 13 keys. It's been covered enough that you can get away with it. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 13? A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Hey there are more than 13 keys, there are 15: 1: C no flats or sharps 2. C# 7 sharps 3. Db 5 flats 4. D 2 sharps 5. Eb 3 flats 6. E 4 sharps 7. F 1 flat 8. F# 6 sharps 9. Gb 6 flats 10. G 1 sharp 11. Ab 4 flats 12. A 3 sharps 13. Bb 2 flats 14. B 5 sharps 15. Cb 7 flats Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I know there's a reason for seven sharps and seven flats. But that doesn't make it right. In junior high school I was in the "B#" organization for a short time. Bunch of dorks, they were. Like, even more dorky than me. Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Hey there are more than 13 keys, there are 15: 1: C no flats or sharps 2. C# 7 sharps 3. Db 5 flats 4. D 2 sharps 5. Eb 3 flats 6. E 4 sharps 7. F 1 flat 8. F# 6 sharps 9. Gb 6 flats 10. G 1 sharp 11. Ab 4 flats 12. A 3 sharps 13. Bb 2 flats 14. B 5 sharps 15. Cb 7 flats Except Cb = B, F# = Gb, C# = Db when one is speaking in terms of the actual tones used to play a given song. So no, you don't get to count them twice in this context. If you wish to speak that literally, however, there are 21 "keys"... C C# Db D D# Eb E Fb E# F F# Gb G G# Ab A A# Bb B Cb B# ... but I'm not much for anal retentiveness. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Cb and B sure sound the same, but they're of course written differently. Someone explained to me the advantage of doing the notation this way on certain songs, but it didn't make enough of an impression on me to remember the rationale. Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I know there's a reason for seven sharps and seven flats. But that doesn't make it right. In junior high school I was in the "B#" organization for a short time. Bunch of dorks, they were. Like, even more dorky than me. The only reason for 7 sharps or 7 flats is continuity in a piece of sheet music - easier to go from 5 flats to 7 flats (Db to Cb) than going from 5 flats to 5 sharps (Db to B) - but only for the one actually transcribing it. The guy playing it doesn't really give a damn after a certain point, unless he's sight-reading. Cb and B sure sound the same, but they're of course written differently. Someone explained to me the advantage of doing the notation this way on certain songs, but it didn't make enough of an impression on me to remember the rationale. See above. A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Damn. I missed two. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Well, the key of G# would have 8 sharps and the key of D# would have 9 and so forth. You will never, ever see any music in the keys of G#, D#, A#, E#, B#, or Fb. Ever. I sight read all the time, often on stage in front of audiences, I better know this stuff. When I played in the SF 49ers Big Band, I was sight-reading with 55,000 people in the stadium. Ringling Bros. Barnum and Bailey Circus had crowds of 10,000, not including elephants and tigers and clowns. Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard W Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 this discussion reminds me of a joke I read in a joke book I had as a kid. "How is an icy sidewalk like music?" "If you don't C# you'll Bb." It was funny when I was 10. "Everyone wants to change the world, but no one thinks of changing themselves." Leo Tolstoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cthulhu Fhtagn Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Hey there are more than 13 keys, there are 15: 1: C no flats or sharps 2. C# 7 sharps 3. Db 5 flats 4. D 2 sharps 5. Eb 3 flats 6. E 4 sharps 7. F 1 flat 8. F# 6 sharps 9. Gb 6 flats 10. G 1 sharp 11. Ab 4 flats 12. A 3 sharps 13. Bb 2 flats 14. B 5 sharps 15. Cb 7 flats Looks like one of my brackets. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy c Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 In honor of this thread, the next time I play Sweet Home Alabama, I will play in the key of C double sharp. That key, if it existed, would have 14 sharps. Important symbols for you to know: http://www.aboutmusictheory.com/media/double-sharp-pitch.png Free download of my cd!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b5pilot Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 In honor of this thread, the next time I play Sweet Home Alabama, I will play in the key of C double sharp. That key, if it existed, would have 14 sharps. Important symbols for you to know: http://www.aboutmusictheory.com/media/double-sharp-pitch.png Now I'm curious. What would be the point of using such notation? Lydian mode? The only mode I know has the words "pie ala" in front of it. http://www.myspace.com/theeldoradosband Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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