alcohol Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Anyone have experience using a Noise Gate or Downward Expander on guitar for live performances. My son played tonight and had to turn his amp up pretty loud for his leads, but when not playing the guitar would feedback unless he turned his volume knob down. If he wanted to break up his solos with some silence in between phrases his low E string would feedback. Is a downward expander or a noise gate the solution to this problem? "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by alcohol: [b]Anyone have experience using a Noise Gate or Downward Expander on guitar for live performances. My son played tonight and had to turn his amp up pretty loud for his leads, but when not playing the guitar would feedback unless he turned his volume knob down. If he wanted to break up his solos with some silence in between phrases his low E string would feedback. Is a downward expander or a noise gate the solution to this problem?[/b][/quote]A noise gate is not really going to solve that problem. When a signal gets above a certain level, the noise gate opens wide up. I doubt you could set it where you could eleminate nonmusical feedback, but retain musical feedback/sustain. The easiest way to go about this is by using some kind of switching, to be able to switch between two different volume levels. This can be accomplished through the "channel switching" some amps provide, or by setting up an overdrive pedal for the "lead" sound, and bypassing it for a less hyped volume. However, if the lead sound that is desired is simply the sound of the amp, and you do not want to use any external overdrives, you can get a volume pedal- which is pretty much contructed like a wah. That will allow your son to do those Santana like volume swells as well as allowing him to control his stage volume via foot. Also, amp placement will change the amount of feedback tremendously. Was your son directly in front of his amp? I would guess that was a big part of the problem. Maybe, before spending any money, you should try setting the amp up off to the side a little, but to where he can still walk over in front if he wants. That way, when he is singing the amp won't be feeding back, but when he goes into his solo, he can walk a few paces over and get into the "sweetspot". Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
where02190 Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 two words of advise: Volume pedal. Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 We got an Ernie Ball Volume pedal. Very quiet and smooth and not cheap, but it alterss the tone. Someone on the Guitar Forum where I also posted this mentioned a couple of noise gates that he's had success with in dealing with this problem so I think I'm going to try that. It could be technique. It's that brief moment in between notes during the solo as a sustained note is fading and then all the sudden the the low E kicks in. It only happens when the Marshall is cranked. He might be too close to the amp but on a small stage there's not much choice and often he plays in situation where micing an amp, the drum kit or anything beyond the singers is a luxury we don't have. We also own a PA system that is only really adequate for the vocals. As a keyboard player this was never a situation that I had to confront. Also I never played with drummers like contemporary rock drummers that bash the fricken cymbals so loud that the guitar has to be really loud to be heard. I try to influence the way drummer plays by suggesting that he open some space for the guitar players, but one of the other guitar player asks him to bash his cymbals. I was at a gig with three other bands last night and all the drummers bashed their cymbals.??????? It makes for a tinny and unpleasant sound from the entire band to my ears. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wow Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 [quote] We got an Ernie Ball Volume pedal. Very quiet and smooth and not cheap, but it alterss the tone. [/quote]I had the same problem . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 alchohol, You really really need to get them off of that cymbal bashing thing. That is an audio engineer's worst mightmare. And really, it is lazy playing to just hit the cymblas to try and generate excitement. You can try out the noise gate, but from my experience it is probably not going to work. If you pick one up, make sure you can return it. The thing is, the second any of the strings get brushed against, or happen to vibrate, the gate is going to open up and allow feedback. Really, some good muting technique is what is needed- I set my guitar amp close to wide open so it can be on the verge of feedback- but when I am not playing, my palm is muting the strings. Also, I set my rythm pickup to about 4 or 5, and my lead pickup all the way open, so I can use the guitar as a form of channel switching. Also, the volume pedal may change the tone, but does it actually make the tone bad? Unless you have some kind of holy grail tone going on (which it doesn't sound like), the practicality will outweigh any slight difference in tone. Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylen Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 I use the volume control knob on the Telecaster to control that kind of thing alcohol. If part of the guitar style is to use the volume control knob for dynamics or setting levels or 'pushing' a guitar amp into overdrive - ultra-drive even - then some noise gates will not be a good solution since the gate will kick in when the guitar volume is adjusted too low. Same with some downward expanders. Some volume pedals alter the tone too much also. If the guitar amp and usual settings are too 'large' for a smaller setting and you are forced to stand within the 'feedback zone' of a high gain setting then you have to alter your settings somehow. I'm willing to bet a nice looking wool blanket strategically placed over the speaker cabinet will control the feedback situation. Otherwise turning the cabinet around or going to a smaller 10" cabinet, open back, etc. This will minimally affect the tone - along with becoming intimite with the guitars volume knob. Some guitars have volume knobs that are easier to get to more quickly than others. Otherwise the worst thing involves messing with your son's tone and going to a lowergain setup or using some distortion stomp boxes on a cleaner amp. Who knows - the head may even have a tube that vibrates and need replacing if it's even got tubes. The excitement of the live performance - sometimes the room and stage get in the way big time ! :) kylen PS I'll add the palm muting technique that gtoledo3 mentioned also in combination with the guitar volume is the simpliest non-tone-altering thing. A great new technique for your son to pick up - he'll like it I think ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
where02190 Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Tow more words of advice(well 3 actually) everybody turn down. If you think it's too loud your audience certainly does. Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcohol Posted October 20, 2003 Author Share Posted October 20, 2003 Actually, I don't think the guitars are too loud. I think the drummer bangs his cymbals to much. I do think that when the guitarist takes a solo it should fill in the acoustic space of the vocals and be prominent. We just played a gig where the sound system was in a closet. It was a very good sound system but the board was in a closet. Modulation of volume needed to be done by the musicians on stage. When you're low budget the solutions aren't the same. After reading a number of posts I think that maybe guitar playing technique is the answer with a conscious muting of unplayed strings will mitigate the feedback problem. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality." [Dante Alighieri] (1265-1321) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 "Cymbals eat guitars" - Lou Reed "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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