Fitting in with a keyboad player... hmmm...

[Ross Brown]

I have trouble communicating with our keyboard player. I dont get what he is playing. I hear a wall of sound (not always volume related) from him. I hear odd rhythms. I cant put my finger on it but it is messing with the tightness of the band musically.

 

Other members of the band want to work with him. I am of the school that each member of the band should bring it, ie have a good sense of what is needed. Perhaps it is me, maybe I am expecting the wrong things.

 

What is your experience with playing with a keyboard player?

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I might not be the best to answer this, since I play both. But:

Most keys players that had any formal instruction learned to play solo - and for years (it takes a lot more hours to get even half-way good on keys than on most other instruments). If said player is not used to fitting in with a band, they don't yet understand the basic rule of only playing what is needed in the context of the band (and some never learn, probably a smaller percentage than guitarists who never learn).

 

If the player is teachable, invest the time along with the rest of the band to lead them in the direction of - they don't need to try to fill up all the spaces, only add what is needed to help the overall sound. If you can get them to listen to some playing by Benmont Tench - that is the ideal in playing - every single note is a complement, and no playing at all that isn't.

 

Sparse playing is not easy to learn, but is rewarding for the careers of those willing to learn.

 

I go through the same thing with one of our keyboardists - the person can really play - they can play a lot better than myself. But they want to be the whole show. Our best keys player has over 30 years, can sight read stuff I couldn't play with 6 months to learn - she started that way also - but it has very much been worth the time and trouble to guide her - she can still tear it up in solo time, but blends completely in the band now. It did take a few months to completely get to that point.

 

I personally look at an ensemble this way: three main parts - the lead (whichever instrument or voice may have it), the rhythm section (where the bass lives almost all the time), and the "glue" that connects the two - which is whereb I try to play when on keys. The glue is down in the back most of the time, but it is real important. Keys do lend themselves to fitting in any of the three places - it is a matter of recognizing which place is needed at the moment.

 

Now, if the player also has a bunch of junk (drugs, alcohol problems, personality, not showing up) - then just fire and replace might be indicated. But if the player doesn't have that baggage, you will wind up with a lot better band spending the time to see if you can get the results than taking the chance that the next one overall will be better.

 

[Skinny]

What sounds is he using? Piano? Synth? Organ?

 

Is he just pounding piano chords in the midrage the whole time? That could be clashing with rhythm guitar.

 

Some synth sounds can sound very similar to guitar, and cause mush.

 

I have learned quite a bit in the last few years of playing in a rock/pop cover band, about how to lay off and not make mush, or a wall of sound, as you say.

 

The odd rhythms, well, that may take some work. Is it a problem with his timing, or is he just trying to stand out?

 

I'd say if the rest of the band is willing to work with him, it may be fixable. Of course, you have to choose your battles. If the band thinks it's worth the effort, then that's good. If you think it's not fixable, then maybe he's not the right player for you. How much experience does he have playing in a group like yours? Any?

 

 

[b5pilot]

I might not be the best to answer this, since I play both. But:

Most keys players that had any formal instruction learned to play solo - and for years (it takes a lot more hours to get even half-way good on keys than on most other instruments). If said player is not used to fitting in with a band, they don't yet understand the basic rule of only playing what is needed in the context of the band (and some never learn, probably a smaller percentage than guitarists who never learn).

 

If the player is teachable, invest the time along with the rest of the band to lead them in the direction of - they don't need to try to fill up all the spaces, only add what is needed to help the overall sound. If you can get them to listen to some playing by Benmont Tench - that is the ideal in playing - every single note is a complement, and no playing at all that isn't.

 

Sparse playing is not easy to learn, but is rewarding for the careers of those willing to learn.

 

I go through the same thing with one of our keyboardists - the person can really play - they can play a lot better than myself. But they want to be the whole show. Our best keys player has over 30 years, can sight read stuff I couldn't play with 6 months to learn - she started that way also - but it has very much been worth the time and trouble to guide her - she can still tear it up in solo time, but blends completely in the band now. It did take a few months to completely get to that point.

 

I personally look at an ensemble this way: three main parts - the lead (whichever instrument or voice may have it), the rhythm section (where the bass lives almost all the time), and the "glue" that connects the two - which is whereb I try to play when on keys. The glue is down in the back most of the time, but it is real important. Keys do lend themselves to fitting in any of the three places - it is a matter of recognizing which place is needed at the moment.

 

Now, if the player also has a bunch of junk (drugs, alcohol problems, personality, not showing up) - then just fire and replace might be indicated. But if the player doesn't have that baggage, you will wind up with a lot better band spending the time to see if you can get the results than taking the chance that the next one overall will be better.

 

+1. That is the biggest problem with the keys players I've worked with. They don't know how to keep it simple and blend in. They feel they have to do it all. The guy needs schoolin'.

[SteveC]

I am fortunate to play with a keyboard payer who also plays bass. He doesn't step on my toes to often. I do have to remind him on occasion but not too often.I'm fortunate to be playing with pretty decent musicians even though I am in a decidedly rural and geographically removed area.

[Ross Brown]

Good, informative replies. Thanks.

 

This is his first band. He is 46. Never played blues before. His sound is either toy piano or chain saw. Sometimes I hear a nice organ sound... He has 2 keyboards and a computer. He seems like a nice guy. No real baggage.

 

I think his timing is suspect. I used to record the rehearsals. I invited him over several months ago to listen to what I hear. He did not have the time. I am available when ever he could come....

 

I think part of the problem is me. At gigs I am positioned right next to him. I see and hear everything. It is junk. I don't really feel like mentoring him. To me, it is not fixable. I am having trouble conveying this to the guitar player. Feed back we get from wives and the guys in my other band is that he doesn't add anything. They don't hear the junk I hear but I am right next to him and I listen to the recordings also. One guy that has seen us play with and with out him said we are just as good without him. I think we are bad with him. Like I said, part of the problem may be my perception.

 

The keyboard player has been with us for 8 months. I would say it has gotten a little better but at no time did I give a crap if he ever came back. He makes 3-4 songs we do sound really good. The rest..... no so.

 

I am not sure what I will do.

 

 

[The Bear Jew]

Fewer bandmates = more money for you.

[Eric VB]

The keyboard player has been with us for 8 months. I would say it has gotten a little better but at no time did I give a crap if he ever came back. He makes 3-4 songs we do sound really good. The rest..... no so.

Ross, what's the line up? Female singer, guitar, bass, drums & keys? If that's it, sure, you could go without keys or replace him with a rhythm guitarist, harp, dobro, etc. Whoever is in that slot has to be the glue, like skinny said earlier.

 

When it's time for solos -- can't have a blues band without a guitar solo, can you? -- that's when your band will sound the most naked (sparse). Female vocals drops out (or plays hand percussion?), guitar is busy soloing and that leaves bass and drums to fill out the sound, just like in a power trio.

 

It's nice to have some variety in the solo instrument over the course of a 4-hour show, too, right? That's when it's nice to have something other than a second guitar. If you don't have that extra person you may want to play more bass solos ... as long as they are outstanding.

 

You could always invest in a B3 (or similar) and get your female vocalist to comp when she's not singing. I understand the two of you spend plenty of time together already.

[Skinny]

What kind of music are you playing? If keys aren't a significant part of your sound, and, to you, he makes it sound bad, then I'd say ditch him.

 

My band, for example, is a cover band, playing classic rock through current pop. We couldn't do half our setlist without keyboards. But if you're doing something like straight up rock, and there are no significant keyboard parts that need to be played, then it's not worth it, IMO.

[Ross Brown]

Some of my issue may be that I am used to playing in a trio in my rock band. We have a very full sound. I am willing and able to give musical space but not if it is junk.

 

Not buying or lifting a B3.

 

My bass solos are not outstanding.

 

I like to sound of a good keyboard in a blues band. It can add a lot. I don't like the sound of a jazz pianist playing keyboard in a blues band.

 

I'll figure this out. I just wanted some stuff thrown at me. My main problem is that I am the only one that hears it and now I have to wait for every one to get to the same place I am....

 

 

[Skinny]

I wish you luck, whatever you decide. I've been in a similar situation lately - feeling like I'm the only one who hears "mush", or "junk" being played. You try to speak up and solve the problem, and you feel outnumbered. Been there, but that's a whole other topic...

[Basshappi]

Playing with keyboardists have been both my best and worst band experiences. A band is a situation in which the whole is greater than the individual parts and every member must work to promote that. If there are weak links then there are only two choices; either improve them or eliminate them.

 

If you are the bandleader then ultimately the responsibility falls on you.

 

Good Luck!

[Ross Brown]

Fewer bandmates = more money for you.

 

This has not escaped my attention... especially when I hear things like "you are just as good with or without him" .... come to think of it.... maybe they mean we suck with or without him.... arrrrggggg!!!!

[Ross Brown]

Mrs. Brown read this thread and said to tell everyone she hears the junk too. She said she has to ignore him to keep from getting drawn off melody when she sings.

[jeremy c]

Everyone in the band is playing a part....except for your keyboardist. He/she needs to play a part (and the same part every time) that fits with the other parts.

 

If there are recordings that you are learning from, the pianist needs to learn the part, the whole part and nothing else but the part.

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Well, if it has already been 8 months - its probably going to be difficult to get him to change. Mebbe not impossible, if he really wants to be in the band, and if you (I'm presuming that you are leader) find a way to make it clear that no change = no more being in band.

 

If there comes a gig when he is unable to be there, maybe you could find a GOOD keyboard sub - the rest of the band members might just suddenly discover what it is like when all are working together.

 

Groups I'm currently in are not making their living by music - but your situation - music business still must be BUSINESS.

 

[jlrush]

IMO MoodyBluesKeys and jeremyc have it right. Many keyboardists play too much for the part and if you can school him he will be better off for it.

All you really need for blues keys is a good piano sound, and occasionally a Hammond B3 organ sound. That's what I would want the keys to play in my blues band.

[Paul K]

IMHO, the problem with key players is that they have ten fingers. Cut off eight digits, and they'd be groovy.

 

And the best B3 players have the patience to hit a chord and just sit on it; they let that B3 wave of chorus just wash over you.

[Ross Brown]

 

And the best B3 players have the patience to hit a chord and just sit on it; they let that B3 wave of chorus just wash over you.

 

I can't get him to do that consistently. He tends to play along with the rest of use.

[5 string Mike]

Part of it goes along with the way keyboard/ piano players are often taught- piano music has the bass line, melody line, etc. They are often taught to play in situations where they are the only instrument, and it becomes automatic. They have to be taught how to play in a situation with multiple instruments and how they can do less and still be adding value.

 

I have dealt with this at church with piano players. When they have moved from a traditional style with just piano and/or organ to the contemporary with a full-on band, I have sat down with a couple of pianists and explained that I'm now doing the job of their left hand, so if they want to do other things with that hand, like play harmony parts, etc, go ahead. Once they got it, they liked it because it made their job easier.

 

As much as I understand your frustration, I also believe that you can't expect someone to read your mind. He's playing junk- so sit down with him, musician to musician and ask him what's going on. Maybe he's struggling to find something to play. Maybe he genuinely doesn't understand what he needs to do.

 

At the very least, the situation is brought to light. One thing that frustrates me about musicians is that many of us do the passive-agressive thing and b*tch about the {offending player/singer} to everyone but the person. I have done that and now make it an effort not to- at least until after I talk to the person first.

 

Sit down with him and find out what's going on. At least try to give him some feedback and coaching. Then, if he doesn't improve, it's on him. You did your part.

[Skinny]

I'm FAR from being the best B3 player (don't even have a real B3...), but that's kinda my style - just let it ride, man... I love holding a fat chord while my guitar player does his thang.

 

And the best B3 players have the patience to hit a chord and just sit on it; they let that B3 wave of chorus just wash over you.

[Ross Brown]

 

As much as I understand your frustration, I also believe that you can't expect someone to read your mind. He's playing junk- so sit down with him, musician to musician and ask him what's going on. Maybe he's struggling to find something to play. Maybe he genuinely doesn't understand what he needs to do.

 

At the very least, the situation is brought to light. One thing that frustrates me about musicians is that many of us do the passive-agressive thing and b*tch about the {offending player/singer} to everyone but the person. I have done that and now make it an effort not to- at least until after I talk to the person first.

 

Sit down with him and find out what's going on. At least try to give him some feedback and coaching. Then, if he doesn't improve, it's on him. You did your part.

 

I have done some of this. I have tried to get him to come over to listen to the rehearsal recordings. When he blew me off about listening to the recordings I heard in my mind either he didn't care or he was not interested in my mentoring. We have pointed things out at rehearsal. I guess his blowing me off was a fatal flaw...

 

I (we) can keep trying to work with him for the reasons stated by many of you above or change the situation. I believe that my approach is not well received by the band. Will be interesting. I am the band leader. Guitar player is a strong personality too. I generally like other strong personalities but it will make this interesting.

 

 

[The Bear Jew]

Two words--taint punch.

[Ross Brown]

yep...

[picker]

Unless something changes, I see four possibilities for you and the band from what you describe;

 

1. You say nothing, soldier on, and do the best you can with the sitch as is, because, barring divine revelation to the other guys in the band, it won't change.

 

2. Launch the keyboard player. If he isn't adding much and you can't stand his playing, it's another mouth to feed that isn't necessary. Promote the guy to audience member.

 

3. You launch yourself. Nobody seems to listen to your complaints and the key player doesn't have time/won't take time/doesn't give a crap about working with you to improve. You are not going to be happy with the sitch the way it is, and it's going to show up in YOUR playing. Life is too short to jack around with misery you don't need to endure if you don't have to. Don't get into a big dramatic thing about "either he goes or I go", but if you can't get anyone else to pay attention to what's going on, just tell 'em you're leaving and go. Bass players with equipment they can actually play are a valuable commodity, as has been said elsewhere on this site.

 

4. Taint punch. Not sure to whose taint, perhaps several...

[Nicklab]

Have you trying paying attention to what this guy is doing with his left hand? I was in a band with a keyboard player for a few years and when we started out he had a very busy left hand. And in that case it came from a lot of years of him playing solo and in bands that were too cheap to hire a bass player. We talked about what worked best for the song arrangements and how the bottom end should sound.

 

I get the feeling that you may be dealing with a similar situation. Low frequencies can clash, and this may be happening with your parts and what the keyboard player's left hand is doing. Try to listen to what you're doing and the keyboard player's left hand. If it sounds like this is the source of the issue, then bring it up matter of factly in front of the whole band. It's an arrangement issue and it needs to be dealt with. If the guy isn't going to be cool about listening to recordings with you, then make it a band/arrangement issue. You'll likely get some backup from the other players if things sound noticeably muddy.

[Skinny]

Have you trying paying attention to what this guy is doing with his left hand?

Low frequencies can clash, and this may be happening with your parts and what the keyboard player's left hand is doing.

 

Exactly. When we had a bass player in our band, I really didn't do much with the left hand. I did a little playing with the LH on the piano, but my lows were always cut. Otherwise, I let the bass player cover it, as it should be.

[Ross Brown]

At rehearsal I clearly demonstrated what happens when LH is played at wrong time (ever). The notes drop to the floor and make mud.

 

On gigs I swear if I turned my head fast I would see him move his LH from the keys. Wife says she has seen it. I only hear it.

 

Life is too short... No drama, just business.

[Josh Fossgreen]

I dont get what he is playing.

 

While it seems likely that your keyboard player is not playing appropriately for the style, I think you can also take responsibility for your perception of what he's playing. If you don't 'get it,' that means there's room for your ear to grow, either in your understanding of harmony, tone, dynamics, or whatever is confusing you. That doesn't mean what he's playing is tasteful, but it allows you the opportunity to be much more specific in your understanding of why it's not working. From there, you can decide whether to help him out (knowing what the specific issue is), find a new player, or whatever you choose to do.

 

As far as whether to help him out or find a new guy, I'm currently of the opinion that every band member should bring something unique. If he's needing a lot of help and isn't bringing something special, I think it's worth finding a better player.

[Eric VB]

I don't like the sound of a jazz pianist playing keyboard in a blues band.

The other guys have already gone over this part, but this statement reminds me of something I hear a lot of classic rock guitarists say about bassists.

 

They want someone to play very basic, unobtrustive bass lines so the guitars can have plenty of room to work with. If the bass lines are too busy the guitarists will angrily snarl, "we don't want jazz". (It may not technically be jazz, but those are the only two colors in their world. )

 

Look at a good harp or sax or horn section in a blues ensemble. Those cats aren't blowing notes non-stop throughout a song just because they bore easily or something. They know it isn't about them. Yes, they add a lot of flavor to the ensemble that would be sorely missed, but they probably play more rests than notes.