Semi-custom bass (Warmoth parts maybe?)

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

I'm toying with the idea of maybe putting together a semi-custom bass from Warmoth parts...particularly the Gecko body style and necks. Woodwise, I'm thinking alder or swamp ash body with zebrawood top, and likely maple neck with ebony fretboard and matching zebrawood headstock. I'd probably stain the body a dark red color...I tried that with a small shard of zebrawood I had lying around and it would look pretty sharp appearance-wise, the stain really emphasizes the dark stripes in zebrawood, and that would jive nicely with the black ebony fretboard I think. I'd likely have them route the two pickup holes a little closer to the bridge than the norm though...I love the nasally twang from having the bridge pickup nearly right up against the bridge.

 

The motivation for this is two fold: 1) a wide but flat 5-string 35" scale neck with a small and lighweight body (not really that easy of a combination to find, actually), and 2) I'd really like to try an EQ section for each pickup, I just think that would be so sonically flexible (although it WOULD be a lot of knobs). Electronics wise, I'd actually lean toward EMG active pups I think, with two EMG 3-band preamp/EQ with semi-parametric mids (one for each pickup). Yeah, I know that would be a LOT of knobs, but I don't turn them all that often and when I do, it's usually not too drastic. I think I could manage fine with a bunch o' knobs.

 

If anyone has a Warmoth bass with the medium or wide 5-string neck, I'd really like to hear your impressions on the neck, both on how thin it feels with the asymetrical contour, and on how heavy the neck is (how much it makes the bass neck-dive if any). I'm leaning toward the wide neck...I really liked the wide neck and 22mm string spacing on the Warwick Thumb I had for a short while...that was actually one of the things that drew me to that bass.

 

Give me your thoughts on anything about the idea really. Looks like this could be nicely accomplished for just a little over $1K or so.

 

Dave

 

[Paul K]

I recently traded away a fretless Warmoth bass. It was very old; probably the first of the Warmoth five stringers. Probably has nothing to do with the Gecco numbers, but: Ebony fretboard, Fender style headstock. It was very, very wide and very very thick. The body was a J-bass setup, birds eye maple laminated on top. It was very heavy. Came in at over 11.5 lbs. The neck was incredibly stable. I adjusted the truss rod once, and left it alone for about ten years. My other basses get messed with three or four times a year (more often for my Stoneman....it's back at the shop for a new neck. Probably will be the topic of another post if I ever get it back...) Stable,stable,stable. No dead spots. Better sustain than any fretless I've ever played. A fantastic bass to play sitting down. Not so good standing up. Neck dive was not a problem, as i used a wide leather strap that had some friction to it on my shoulder. Just damn stinkin' heavy. But it played and sounded like butter. A wonderful piece of wood. It had EMG J's in it, 18 volts.

 

About the knobs... "So many switches and dials...." (Land-A-Million skit from the Firesign Theatre.....Anybody???) If you don't tweak often, them how about one pickup in the MM position. It's working real well for me in my Cort Curbow that I got in return for the Warmoth. The mid isn't parametric, but for me a mid-shift control would be too much like when I'm trying to adjust the 7 band EQ in the car stereo driving way to fast down the highway. More is more, not always better.

 

So that means you need to sell the Synapse to raise cash for this project, eh?

 

Peace!

Paul K

[Gruuve]

Thanks Paul. Nope, sorry...no plans to sell the Synapse fretless anytime soon, I like it too much!

 

And I'm still diggin' the Roscoe that I recently acquired...but...hmmm...now that I think about it, I could build two Gecko's (a fretted and a fretless maybe?) plus some for what the Roscoe alone is worth. Hmmm...(just kidding).

 

I might let one or two of my other basses go though...

 

And I do tweak the EQ a bit...I tend to adjust it for various venues, etc., and mostly leave it alone for the remainder (maybe some minor tweaking).

 

Dave

 

 

[Gruuve]

Oh...if anyone has any wisdom or resources on pickup placement, I'd love to hear it. I know I like the bridge pickup really close to the bridge...nice nasally twang that way (and although it can get a little thin-sounding, having EQ for each pickup can fix that easily). Not sure about placement of the neck pickup though. (Alex?)

 

Dave

 

[Paul K]

Thanks Paul. Nope, sorry...no plans to sell the Synapse fretless anytime soon....(snip)...

 

Oh Snap! Looks like I'm going to have to spend some gig money at musiciansfriend. None have been on eBay for awhile, and the last one sold under $300 less than new. Definitely going to plunk down the extra C-note for a not black-or-white one......

[Gruuve]

I'd say it's worth it...the only tone I can't get out of the Synapse is the nasally Jaco-ish growl...my fingers just can't find any substantial nose or honk in it. Other than that, I consider the Synapse fretless to be the poor's man Zon...

 

Dave

 

[picker]

About the knobs... "So many switches and dials...." (Land-A-Million skit from the Firesign Theatre.....Anybody???)

 

That was on an episode of the National Lampoon Radio Hour, not a Firesign Theatre record. Used to listen to that show on KWFM, the hot FM station in Tucson, Az. I had that particular episode on tape, and listened to it often. Wow, blast from the past, man, far out...

[Davo-London]

I'm with you on pick-up placement - the nearer the bridge the better. I'm not a fan of PUs near the neck.

 

Stick to your guns and make sure it's sonic blue.

 

Davo

[Davo-London]

Good to see you back Dave.

 

The Davi Bros

[...]

This project will cost anywhere between $500-1000 more than you anticipate it is going to. That is generally how things work out with Warmouth parts instruments.

 

That is a lot of EQ you are proposing. Ever thought about the space inside the control cavity - or lack thereof - for that much stuff? 2 complete preamps, at least 2 9V batteries, master volume knob, blend knob (or a volume knob for each pickup). You're going to need to custom route the control cavity to fit all that stuff in there. If you could get stacked knobs for everything you could conceivably cut that down to 5 stacks:

 

1 - bass & treble p/u #1

2 - mid & mid sweep p/u #2

3 & 4 are double for the second p/u

5 - master volume & pan (or master volume / master volume)

 

The other thing that you may or may not be thinking about here is that with that many knobs you're quickly getting into the realm of never being able to reproduce the same sound twice. A big problem that a lot of the Alembic Series I and II owners have.

[Gruuve]

Actually, good point Bump...repeatability. Hmmm...let me think on that one. My original thought was to put 2 EQ sections in the control cavity, and then a combined EQ stage via knobs on the front. That way, I could "pre-tune" how each pickup sounds somewhat, then do on-the-fly adjustments if/necessary via the EQ on the front. That migth be quite overkill though. Of course, I'm not sure I ever truly use the exact same sound twice anyway.

 

Why do you say $500-1000 more than expected? What's your experience with this? I'm not opposed to dropping between $1000 - $1500 on it. I certainly wouldn't want to under-estimate by $1000 though.

 

Another possibility (not exactly a cheap option however) would be a Moses Graphite neck. I love how the hollow graphite neck on my Steinberger Synapse sounds, and I also quite like recordings and clips I've heard of the Zon basses (very similar "graphite grittiness" to them...I actually really like that character). That more than doubles the cost of the neck, but it might be worth it for one of the Moses custom wide 5-string necks.

 

Dave

 

[...]

My original thought was to put 2 EQ sections in the control cavity, and then a combined EQ stage via knobs on the front. That way, I could "pre-tune" how each pickup sounds somewhat, then do on-the-fly adjustments if/necessary via the EQ on the front. That migth be quite overkill though. Of course, I'm not sure I ever truly use the exact same sound twice anyway.

 

Now that I've actually looked at that body style I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will not be able to fit all that inside that body without doing some heavy customization. Even then I'm skeptical at best.

 

You would have to extend the "normal" control cavity up the body as far as you could go. Then you'd have to create another cavity on the top half of the body as well so you could migrate (at the very least) the batteries up there. Even then you're probably going to have to get custom circuit boards made to try and make the EQ systems as small and compact as possible. Normal sized pots will never all fit - at least with any sort of spacing that is a.) realistic to use or b.) realistic to wire up.

 

Why do you say $500-1000 more than expected? What's your experience with this? I'm not opposed to dropping between $1000 - $1500 on it. I certainly wouldn't want to under-estimate by $1000 though.

 

Generally speaking

 

People who build instruments out of parts think they know what they are getting into but neglect to budget for some things. The "some things" can add up quickly and before you know it you've gone over budget. You milage may vary but I would plan on spending $500 more than you think you are going to.

[...]

For comparison's sake here is the back of my Rogue with all the plates removed. It would have been difficult to get much more in there. The knobs / switches on the front are still just far enough apart where it is easy to make quick adjustments on the fly.

 

http://www.briantimpe.com/images/LDL/AR_back1.JPG

 

http://www.briantimpe.com/images/LDL/AR_back2.JPG

 

Not much space left in there...

http://www.briantimpe.com/images/LDL/AR_back3.JPG

[Gruuve]

Hmmm...good point. Preamps like the Aguilar or EMG are pretty small themselves, but room for all the pots could actually be a bit challenging. The EMG BQC control (3 band EQ w/sweepable mids) comes as two stacked pots, so that X2 plus blend and master volume, would be six pots total. It would definitely be a tight fit, but I think it's doable...if I have to route a little extra room, so be it. (Perhaps I could find a stacked volume/blend or volume/volume...that would knock it down to 5 pots total.) Thanks for the pics though.

 

I've checked the pricing...neck and body come to about $600 or so...hardware around $200 or less...pickups and preamps around $400-600 depending on exactly what I choose. Stain and finish are cheap, maybe $20-30. So, worst case I believe I'm looking at around $1300-1500. Sanity check me here though...

 

Dave

 

[Gruuve]

Hmmm...just stumbled across an interesting discovery...the Zon Studio basses have dual-EQ...one section per pickup...Hmmmm...I do like that "graphite grit" that the Zon's have. I notice the bridge pickup isn't all that close to the bridge though...how nasally can most of the Zon's get folks? I've heard several clips of several different models, but I haven't heard a clip with a spankin' nasally honk.

 

As you can see in my avatar pic, the bridge pup on my Tobias is about 1/2" from the bridge. (When I switched out the old stock bridge that had some stripped screws, I ended up putting the Hipshot bridge about 1/2" closer to the bridge pup.) The Bart electronics have a seperate level mini-pot for each pup, so I've got the bridge pup output cranked and the neck pup output backed off just a bit. This balances quite nicely...I can just play near the bridge and get so much nose honk that I don't even have to touch the pan knob...and I can move my hand near the neck and the honk goes away, very nice. (If that Tobias just had a brighter B-string and was a little lighter...those are the only things that bug me about it!) And with the output cranked on the bridge pup, even solo'd it doesn't sound thin and has plenty of lows to it (although for slap I generally have to boost the lows or low-mids just a bit). The Roscoe has a quite nasally tone from the bridge pup as well, but not as pronounced as the Tobias...if I want to honk with the Roscoe I have to pan toward the bridge, the honk kinda gets lost when the neck and bridge pups are blended (but the lows from the bridge pup are sufficient for fingerstyle to not sound thin...I do sometimes boost the 800Hz upper-mids to bring out the nose a little more). Both the Tobias and Roscoe have somewhat similar neck pup tones, although overall the Tobias has a much stronger upper-mid focus while the Roscoe has a much stronger lower-mid focus. Interestingly enough, the Tobias sits very nicely in a recorded mix and cuts through quite well with very little EQ (although I usually add a little lows live).

 

So, still pondering...

 

Dave

 

[Gruuve]

...Tobias...I can just play near the bridge and get so much nose honk that I don't even have to touch the pan knob...and I can move my hand near the neck and the honk goes away.

 

Dave

 

Ya know I just triggered a thought in my own mind. I love the idea of having lots of knobs and tweaks, but I also love the idea of not having to tweak knobs that much, and using my hands to get the tones I want. (So, kinda hands first, knobs 2nd approach.)

 

So, since moving the bridge pup really close to the bridge gives honk when you play over it and not so much when you don't...how about if the neck pickup is really close to the neck? I'd love the idea of being able to get a warm and gritty neck tone with no honk by just playing near the neck (which I can do now) but ALSO get enough lows and low attack out of the neck pup that I don't need to even boost any lows for slap (which I sometimes do now). I do like to switch between slap and fingerstyle mid-song sometimes...it's annoying to need a little more lows for slap but less lows for fingerstyle. There's not a huge diff, just enough to really annoy me.

 

Actually, let me restate my thought/question: Does putting more distance between the neck and bridge pickups make the bass more sensitive to where your right hand is playing (as in, near the neck or near the bridge)? I'm thinking the answer is probably a resounding "yes!"

 

Dave

 

[Rocky McDougall]

On one of my basses, I had the bridge pup too close to the bridge and the volume suffered. There was a big difference in volume between the two pups. On my current project bass, I moved the bridge pup further forward, (past were Fender Jazz has it) I prefer a full rich tone from either of my pups. I will be finished with it in a few days and well let you know about the tone.

Rocky

[BenHack]

Dave

 

You should try a 24 fret Sadowsky to get a feel for having both pickups back towards the bridge. Strong mid presence no matter where you play on the string. For me this can almost be annoying, and makes me consider getting a jazz style bass as well. Anyway what's the worst that could happen from trying one of these basses. Cheers

 

Ben

[Gruuve]

Hey Ben:

 

Actually, I've owned or tried a bass or two that has one or more pickups on the bridge half of the world, so I have a pretty good feel for what that sounds like. I have tended to favor basses with a bridge pup and a pup near the "sweet spot". I can't recall if I've ever tried one that has the neck pup really close to the neck, come to think of it.

 

Dave

 

[TreR1969]

Well, I don't have any bass experience with Warmoth...however, I did get interviewed for a job there back in 1995 and as part of the interview, one of the owner guys took me on a tour of the factory...oh man, it was amazing, beautiful, finely crafted instruments. Near the end of the little tour, the guy took a guitar neck off one of the production racks and laid it on the floor...with the head stock angled toward the floor so there was a significant angle between where the neck bolts to the body, and the far tip of the head stock. He then says..."I weigh about about 280 lbs." And then proceeds to step, with both feet, onto the neck and bounce up and down with his full weight. After he stepped off the neck he then proceeds to tell me about their proprietery method for building guitar necks for strength. All I can say is I was very impressed with their build quality. So, if you want to go with building a custom ax...I would certainly consider Warmoth as a top contender for supplying the parts...even though I didn't get the job...oh well.

[jeremy c]

He then says..."I weigh about about 280 lbs."

...I didn't get the job...oh well.

 

Maybe you were too thin.

[natobasso]

Oh my gosh! Four batteries?!!!! He he.

[natobasso]

I just recently sold all my basses to build my Warmoth 4-string. I couldn't be happier! I just took it to a luthier to have it adjusted. The neck is beautiful, maple with ebony top, but it's just missing the string tree (I'm adding this now) so be aware that you should add this later.

 

You can't go wrong with Warmoth.

[Gruuve]

So, one thought here...I'm quite interested in experimenting with pickup placement. I'm pretty sure I would want the bridge pickup 1/2" from the bridge...not sure where I'd want the neck pickup. So, I'm thinking that I could order the body with the whole section from bridge to neck routed, then I could experiment with pickup placement (and the resulting phase cancellations between pickups) all day long for months if I chose to. Once I found the perfect placement (my idea of perfect), then I could cover the open routed sections with ramps, which is actually what I intended to do anyway. Plus, taking a little wood out of the body will just reduce weight , and I seriously doubt having some hollow section will have any ill effects on the tone (think Rickenbacker, right?)

 

Or, if I can't order it routed, I can certainly just route it myself, no big deal. The more I think about having the whole area routed, the more I like it.

 

Dave

 

[...]

Oh my gosh! Four batteries?!!!! He he.

 

Trying no to hi-jack this thread...

 

The one battery all by itself is for the electronics. The other three batteries are for the LEDs in the neck. My other Alembic is still on the original batteries for the neck LEDs and I've had that bass for 3 1/2 years. So it isn't like you burn through them like they're going out of style.

[...]

So, one thought here...I'm quite interested in experimenting with pickup placement. I'm pretty sure I would want the bridge pickup 1/2" from the bridge...not sure where I'd want the neck pickup. So, I'm thinking that I could order the body with the whole section from bridge to neck routed, then I could experiment with pickup placement (and the resulting phase cancellations between pickups) all day long for months if I chose to. Once I found the perfect placement (my idea of perfect), then I could cover the open routed sections with ramps, which is actually what I intended to do anyway. Plus, taking a little wood out of the body will just reduce weight , and I seriously doubt having some hollow section will have any ill effects on the tone (think Rickenbacker, right?)

 

...or you could route the entire area out and create some sort of rail system to mount the pickups on allowing you to move them wherever you want them to be. Like Kramer(?) did in the early 80's with one of their basses.

[Gruuve]

...or you could route the entire area out and create some sort of rail system to mount the pickups on allowing you to move them wherever you want them to be. Like Kramer(?) did in the early 80's with one of their basses.

 

There's a Westone (?) that comes to mind with those rails. I probably *could* rig something like that, but I'm not sure I'd want to...I think once I found the positioning where the phase cancellation/reinforcement from the combined pickups is pleasing to my ears, I doubt I'd want to change it, or at least, certainly not "on the fly", so to speak.

 

Dave

 

[Paul K]

Dave:

You need this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Westone-THE-RAIL-Headless-Bass-Guitar-Sliding-Pickup_W0QQitemZ230249739567QQihZ013QQcategoryZ159950QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Sorry it's only a four string.....

[Gruuve]

Only one pickup though, so I wouldn't be able to get a feel for how the positioning affects phase cancellation/reinforcement. It's a good thought though!

 

Dave

 

[Davo-London]

Of course Dave that's the answer. Just put one pickup in. Then you won't have to worry about that useless neck pickup. Hmmm. Good idea huh?

 

On the battery/neck light thing. Has anyone watched Stuart Clayton's bass solo on youtube? In the middle of his solo he stops and puts on his neck LEDs. The crowd cheer!

 

Nice moment. Sorry carry on chaps ...

 

Davo