The influence of American Music around the globe: Discuss

[jeremy c]

What would you call it, Kramer?

[Nicklab]

 

Have you heard Talking Timbuktu by Ry Cooder and Ali Farka Toure? Or Mali to Memphis

 

You beat me to it, Jeremy.

 

My wife's an American (not a musician) and a fan of a range of world music since before we met so there are always ways for an active mind to find interesting music.

 

Am I the only person that finds the term "world music" to be intensely putrid?

 

 

You're not the only one. I find it to be a very lazy way of lumping the varied worlds of non-western music together. I wouldn't be surprised if the term emerged in the US since we are a very ethnocentric culture.

 

I think that people who are genuinely interested in taking the time to learn about other forms of music will do so. Just sitting in on Bakithi Kuamalo's seminar at Music Player Live showed me that the rhythms and styles of African music are incredibly varied. The styles you would hear in Cameroon or Senegal are much different from the music of the townships of South Africa.

 

One of the recording projects I've been working on has been calling on some musicians from all over the world. Tuvan throat singers from Mongolia. A ney player from the Middle East. An African ndongo player. A Chinese erhu player. So perhaps I'm a little more aware of the variety of instruments and styles of music. And that might be why I find the term "World Music" insulting.

[getz out]

What would you call it, Kramer?

 

George.

[Phil W]

I used to find it an irritating term but it works. It draws people to music outside their normal circumstance. Very few folk musics remain uninfluenced by areas outside their geography. Yes, even within Cameroon there are many distinct musical styles - and thousands of musicians , each with their own twist.

'World' is not a genre, just a shorthand for non-US music (well even that's not accurate). My wife enjoys Balinese and Javanese gamelan, Sakamaoto's global fusions, Transglobal Undeground's electro-gypsy-reggae, Natasha Atlas' Maghrebi beats, some Southern Indian classical music, Qawalli etc. etc. What, you wanted me to list it in full?

Calling music world music is no big deal - in reality it's all world music and it's all folk music. It would be hard to have this discussion without using terms like world music though.

[Phil W]

What would you call it, Kramer?

 

George.

 

Nice one!

[Phil W]

I think the term 'world music' was adopted by music promoters in London in the 80s. Peter Gabriel's success with the Womad thing was a large factor behind it. It was seen as a way to market non-Western (and I use that term loosely) music.

 

I do understand the criticisms of the term and the tendency towards exoticism. I know David Byrne hates the term. Essentially, it is a meaningless term but, without it, perhaps some non-Western music would be even less known and widely loved than it is.

 

Myself, I was lucky enough to come across a rack full of discounted LPs in a Virgin store in Northern England in the 80s. I bought the lot - early Salif Keita (Super Rail Band), Youssou Ndour's Immigrees, Toure Kounda, Mbelia Bel and lots more - I ate that stuff up.

 

I've been lucky enough to play with musicians from more than 30 countries (mostly not their indigenous music) - London is a great place. I definitely cashed in on the term World Music in a London based African band as well as in various global fusion bands. I avoid the term myself (though venues and agents have used it in publicity) but I would get so worked up about it myself. Labels are not really limiting to musicians (most of the time).

 

The thing is that as a white anglo-saxon male, I have felt totally at home playing the music I've grown up with - reggae, funk, blues and jazz and have explored other styles - afro-cuban, some Brazilian, West African highlife-related, middle-eastern and mediterranean music but I know next to nothing about English indigenous music and (because I grew up listening to soul, rock, reggae and funk) it actually sounds and feels more alien when I hear it than the above list.

[Sanvean]

Hmmm...

 

Last week I have been talking to a friend about this very same thing. Looking back you can see distinct music, in regards to American culture, represented in generally every decade.

 

Starting with Jazz/ Big Band

50's Rock & Roll/ Blues/ Country/ Lounge

60's Rock/ Pop/ Soul/ Folk/ (explosive music scene)

70's Classic rock/ R&B/ Punk/ Disco/ Funk/ Reggae/ Ambient

80's New wave/ Hair Bands/ Stadium rock/ New Age

90's Alternative/ Grunge/ Rap/ Pop Country

00's ?

I look back on the last ten years(8 and counting)and I'm lost to define it. The only aspect that sticks out in my mind is.... American Idol & it's clones. We basically have reduced ourselves to slick pre-packaged mush. It's judged, voted on and promoted on tv... it must be good and the bonus is I don't have to think!

I'm not one to throw labels around and have a need to have everything defined, but are we that bland?

 

Music was so hot, vibrant and exciting, now it's delivered cold with as much flavor as a used wet washcloth. I think the only thing that will get us out of this rut is the net and realizing that other cultures have worth. We aren't the center of the universe, let alone this lil' rock we sit on.

 

Now with that said, I have a 180 pound Saint Bernard right here, who thinks he IS the ruler of this planet and he wants to go outside, so I'm done.

 

Can anyone here define the last eight years?

[Chad Thorne]

What would you call it, Kramer?

 

George.

 

I'm a big fan of George, myself.

 

I dunno - I use "world music" to refer to music from "Third World" countries, mostly. Those of you who inhabit those countries - I mean no disrespect at all by using the terms "world music" or "Third World." World music is shorthand for what to me is a huge subset of music. If I start listing all the musical forms that I like from other countries we'd be here all day.

 

Phrases that irk me? Power chord. Military intelligence. Justice Scalia.

 

I do see your point, Vince. Can you suggest another term?

[Phil W]

I'm not going to defend 'Third World'

 

[Chad Thorne]

I'm not going to defend 'Third World'

 

Well, I don't blame you. I'm limited by my American perspective. What would be more PC? "Developing nations?" That doesn't seem much less condescending.

 

Again, if anybody has a non-offensive term that means "music from Africa/Asia/Caribbean/South America," and doesn't include North America/Western Europe/Eastern Europe-former Soviet Union, I'll use it.

 

Maybe "George" works as well as anything...

[getz out]

http://carpefactum.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/3_snowbunny.jpg

[kenfxj]

http://carpefactum.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/3_snowbunny.jpg

[Phil W]

I'm not going to defend 'Third World'

 

Well, I don't blame you. I'm limited by my American perspective. What would be more PC? "Developing nations?" That doesn't seem much less condescending.

Developing Nations, I guess. Nowadays The South is commonly used in UK development circles - that has another meaning in the US though!

Third World comes from the days of the Cold War - 1st world - West, 2nd world - Communist Bloc 3rd world - the rest.

Still commonly used though and there's an argument that the term Third World is not redundant.

 

 

[getz out]

Developing Nations is interesting, but what do you call the states that been moving backwards since the 1960s? Undeveloping Nations?

[jeremy c]

Developing Nations is interesting, but what do you call the states that been moving backwards since the 1960s? Undeveloping Nations?

I think I live in one of those.

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Another term for "world music"?

 

Well, what about saying where it comes from? I mean, if you like some guys from Malawi (great name for a place!) then SAY you like "music from Malawi", which gives props to the people that created it and identifies its uniqueness.

 

And who knows, maybe someone listening to you talk (post?) will get curious and, knowing a specific place to check out, musically speaking, will actually learn something and go on to discover that, while music from Malawi is pretty good, they prefer music from Nigeria. If, OTOH, you say you like "world music" where does the person hearing you start to look?

[Phil W]

I don't deny that the World Music term is potentially patronising and betrays an attitude that non-Western music is somehow 'other'.

However, we live in a world where the financial resources and entertainment industries are unfair. The World Music tag allowed Western listeners the chance to explore music from around the globe. If they'd just created a record shop for Mbalax or Rai, there would have been limited appeal, without the right kind of promotion. The 'World Music' bandwagon allowed a lot of 'World' artists the chance to be heard in the US and Europe and tour and earn money.

 

Of course, by now you are likely to see music organised by country of origin in record stores - but the world music thing allowed people to access the music. Occasionally it diluted it or exoticised it but eventually the musicians themselves were able to take command of it.

 

Equally, your suggestion of description of music in terms of country of origin could also be seen as patronising or artificial. The border between Senegal and Gambia is an political one, the culture is of Senegambia. Many types of Ghanaian music are close to that of Ivory Coast, other closer to elsewhere (for one example of many).

 

It might hold true for folk music - but even then the Griot tradition of Mali, Senegal and Gambia is not a respecter of political boundary. And some countries are so diverse (e.g. Brazil or Nigeria) that to lump all the traditional types of music together would not be suitable. Pretty much every folk musician in the world is influenced by music outside his own ethnic background anyway.

 

We are people and we are individuals more than we are defined by our cultures and nationalities. To think that everything Youssou Ndour or Salif Keita did would have to fit within Senegalese or Malian music or everything Richard Bona did would have to fit within Cameroonian music would be limiting to artists with grand ideas. Even if you listen to Salif with the Malian Super Rail band before his international success you still hear non-Malian influences on the music.

 

I would argue that the problematic marketing term 'World Music' actually did a lot of good in opening the doors for exposure of thousands of musicians throughout the world to audiences outside their native country and stimulated some fruitful global fusions along the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jeremy c]

I'll have to tell me local record store which has a world music section bigger than many stores all by itself (it's divided into countries) that they should rename the section.

[Phil W]

Doesn't itunes have a World Music section too?

[Phil W]

The editor of fRoots defends the 'world music' term:

http://www.frootsmag.com/content/features/world_music_history/

[Phil W]

Here (apparently) are the minutes from the 1987 meeting where the term was adopted by promoters in the UK - http://www.frootsmag.com/content/features/world_music_history/minutes/page03.html

[Phil W]

The editor of fRoots defends the 'world music' term:

http://www.frootsmag.com/content/features/world_music_history/

 

Worth reading the whole article:

 

Here is the end:

 

"It's not all positive, but World Music (or Musique du Monde in neighbourly Paris) is way ahead on points. It sells large quantities of records that you couldn't find for love or money two decades ago. It has let many musicians in quite poor countries get new respect (and houses, cars and food for their families), and it turns out massive audiences for festivals and concerts. It has greatly helped international understanding and provoked cultural exchanges -- people who've found themselves neighbours in the same box have listened to each other and ended up making amazing music together. Oh, and it has allowed a motley bunch of enthusiasts to not yet need to get proper jobs. I call it a Good Thing, and just feel a bit sorry for people with the thinking time on their hands to decide they hate World Music... Lighten up, guys, it's only a box in a record shop."

[Kramer Ferrington III.]

Ok, you guys are fine with pigeonholes, then you like the term "world music". I personally don't like pigeon-holes, so I think the term sucks and is dismissive in the extreme.

 

You guys keep bringing up Youssou Ndour and Salif Keita, fine. Say you like them, and forget about the "World Music" tag. ie give props to them for what they do and stop pretending they have something in common with an Indonesian gamelan orchestra.

 

And yes, I know about music crossing borders too. In which case, you say you like a particular style, and Bob's your uncle.

 

And I really couldn't care less whether iTunes or some record shop has a big "world music" section. Juts because a lot of people use a term, that doesn't make it right or accurate. The articles you've quoted, Phil, all seem to boil down to "There's nothing wrong with it, we made lots of money!" Well, if they made money, it MUST be ok.

[Chad Thorne]

As I tried to explain above, I use the term "world music"because I seem to like lots of different kind of musics from all over the globe, not just the stuff that's so heavily marketed in the U.S. and Western Europe.

 

If I like, say, only gamelan, or ragas, or soukous, or polkas, it would be easy for me to so identify it. Because I like so many types of music from other countries, I lump it under "world music." Again, if you can think of a shorthand phrase you think is better to describe "music other than that which is mass-marketed, including various flavors of rock, r&b, hip-hop and American country music; music which reflects its country of origin and/or is strongly identified as having originated in a particular country which may either be a more-or-less pure folk idiom of its country of origin or be influenced to some degree by the mass-marketed musical genres (predominantly of American origin)" I'm wide open. This I see as more of an umbrella than a pigeon hole.

 

BTW, usually I say "world musics" to reflect the fact that there's more than one, and that they're far from homogeneous.

[getz out]

I'm sticking with George.

[jeremy c]

Rock music and American music are also meaningless terms.

[Phil W]

Vince, the point was that the musicians from all over the world have made lots of money and found new audiences - of course, the music promoters and industry have done very well out of it too: but that's capitalism.

 

I could have said 'my American wife enjoys various music from all over the globe' and avoided the whole debate. The context was that people were suggesting that Americans were not as open to music from other parts of the world.

 

The context of the thread is that we are discussing how and whether American audiences can accept and appreciate diverse non-western music. I think that the marketing term 'world music' has made that more rather than less likely.

 

I appreciate you bringing up the whole critique of the term, Vince. I don't like categories personally and at one time I would have wholeheartedly agreed with your appraisal of the WM term. It does betray an 'us and them' world view and can be seen as a gross generalisation of incredible diversity. But then, the diversity is the point (partly).

 

All genres and labels simplify and run the risk of patronising. That's why guys like Duke avoided labels and guys like Steve Coleman invented their own (M-Base). They reflect practicalities in the imperfect world in which we live however where someone of the talents of a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan does not have the promotional means in the West of a Britney Spears. Would I have discovered Nusrat without the world music concept - I'm not sure - I hope so though.

 

I'm not against labelling music by country of origin at all. I just wanted to point out that in critiquing the term 'world music' and generating another label you weren't really solving anything.

 

Most of us accept that labels are problematic. I am a white, anglo-saxon male but I wouldn't want to be pigeonholed like that. At the same time those socially constructed labels do apply and (provided I bear in mind the problematic issues) I can still use the term.

 

Vince, I do appreciate you raising the issue. We should be considerate of the implications of the language we use. I don't think there are many outside of America, though, that use the term world music in a patronising or exploitative manner and I don't think that was the intention behind the promoters who adopted it (that was the point of the links). And I don't know America enough to comment on their use of the term but guys that I do know just use it to mean they are open-minded about music.

 

For anyone looking in on this, I should point out that Vince (Kramer) and I are friends (at least as far as the global Internet allows) and we both enjoy a good old debate.

[Rocky McDougall]

Do music lovers in other countries classify American music as "World Music"? It would seem logical to me.

Rocky

[jeremy c]

What do Martians call Earth music?

 

Is American pop music even worthy of being called music?

 

I am an American musician who manages to avoid listening to pop music (while still listening to music for many hours at a time). In my city, people who listen to current pop music are in the minority.

[5 string Mike]

...But I ask, much as we love and adopt American music, will Americans ever 'accept' our music or the music that we make that they influenced us to do in the first place?

One Love

 

To this orginal question, it depends on how one defines 'music'. What I mean, it depends on the audience. The crowd that defines music as the capitaist youth- driven Britney Spears/Snoop Dogg/ Eminem 'pop' stuff, probably not (unless you throw in a few 'I Wanna Sex You Up' lines in for fun). For the crowd that defines music as an artistic espression of culture, tradition, and influences, then yes. There will always be a market for it here, albeit more of a niche market.

 

The whole matter of influence, really comes full circle. It's kind of like one culture takes the form, makes it their own, and that form influences another culture and the two are mixed into something unique, and the cycle goes on.

 

With America having so much of it's culture rooted in the cultures of those who came here, it only makes sense that it's music reflects this. Look at the different music forms in America alone. There is Rock, Jazz, Folk, Country, Bluegrass, Blues, R&B, Funk, Clasical, you name it, it's here somewhere. I have no doubt that music from other parts of the world will have a home here.