Another mix/mastering to critique: "Into You"

[Gruuve]

Hey folks:

 

I think this might actually be the final mix (or maybe one generation away, depending on comments here) for "Into You" (the song I've been working on for a while). Here's a link:

 

http://www.ipass.net/davesisk/music/original/IntoYou.mp3

 

Nothing's ever perfect, but I think this is overall pretty good (including the songwriting and arrangement) minus maybe couple of (hopefully) minor clams. I'm most interested in your comments on the mix and the minimal mastering I've done (since that's what I'm working on at the moment), but I'm open to any comment (good or bad) you want to make.

 

This took a while...I did the songwriting, arrangement, did some midi guide tracks, then recorded tracks for bass guitar, guitar (rhythm and the solo), acoustic drums, lead and backup vocals. There's one female guest voice on it (the heavy breathing and moans).

 

I haven't checked this latest post-mastering copy on monitors and a couple of audio systems yet, but I think I might need to compress/limit the whole mix just a bit more to get the level higher, and the whole mix might need just a little more low-end, but let me know what you think.

 

Anyway, fire away...you guys rarely hear anything in it's finished (or nearly) stage from me, so I'm all ears on your comments.

 

Thanks fer listenin',

Dave

 

[bassbuddy]

OK...I'll be the first.

 

1. Musicman sounds too active for this song

 

2. Timing issues between you and the drummer at points.

 

3. Drums are too thin.

 

4. BGV's sound too out front...try doubling + hard panning

 

5. The effect you have on the lead vocal is sonically interfering with other mids in the mix.

 

6. The whole mix sounds too mid-rangy.

 

7. Sounds like different genres are clashing.

 

I like the song Dave.. I think you need to fine tune the mix. It's a bit fatiguing. Try some LPF's. Keep it up.

 

Best,

 

kENNy

 

 

[...]

This is better than that other song that was so recently subjected upon the forum but it still suffers tremendously from "I have no idea what I'm doing" syndrome. And I'm sorry... (not really) but that's the truth. It really is an art to mix something and make it sound good.

 

The list.

 

* bass sounds like it is sitting in its own space and has nothing nothing to do with anything else

* the whole song in fact sounds like everything is just sitting there and not complementing the other parts

* the guitars sound horrid

* the drums sound like a bad drum machine or a sample

* the lead vocalist sounds a little like my friend Glenn from a local band so that is skewing my opinion about the song... but whatever... The vocals probably sound the best of anything in this.

 

Fix the band around the vocals and you could have yourself a winner.

[cloclo]

well, after a quick listen (not much time on my hands) these are the things that struck me most (i'll try to keep it in the technical realm, everybody has different tastes)

 

- the playing is not really in the pocket

 

- the whole sound seems to come from a box with too much reverb added later to make it bigger (the break in the beginning reverberates (does that word exist?) for a long time)

 

this is probably the result from recording in a space that is too small and/or has a low ceiling. maybe you can try dampening the whole room as much as possible and start from there. the room then has to be added artificially later on but that seems better than to start with a boxy sound which you will never get rid off.

this sound keeps it in the 'rehearsal recording' area.

 

- there is a lot of plastic in the kick drum sound. too much bassdrum-skin

 

these are the 3 things that struck me most.

keep going and keep sharing! cheers!

[Gruuve]

Thanks guys! Oh yeah, there truly is an art to mixing and making it sound good, and there's no doubt that's probably my weakest skill. But, you only get better by doing, right?

 

I'm using some pretty modest gear (a Zoom MRS-1608 for tracking and mix, and some psuedo-mastering on a laptop).

 

Thanks for the complements on the vocals and songwriting. I actually have a little bit of an idea of what I'm after mix-wise (was actually shooting for a mix that sounded somewhere between Buck Cherry's "Crazy Bitch" and Kid Rock's "Bawitdaba"...obviously didn't get there but that was the goal). I generally try to get the mix such that you can hear everything...I hate having one instrument buried by another. Then, secondly, I try to get all the instruments to actually *sound good* in addition to being heard. My skills in this area definitely aren't great, but my mixes have gotten a lot better over time.

 

Some notes:

- I wanted the kick drum to sound this way. I even use a plastic or wood beater to get a lot of "smack" from it.

 

- The rest of the drums are a bit weak. I can't quite get the "crack" out of the snare that I was after. I'll experiment some more with mic placement next time I record drums.

 

- That wasn't the Stingray5 bass...it was actually the recently-acquired Warwick Thumb, which I found to be sorely lacking in low-end. In fact, I think this was the only bass I've ever had to boost the lows on rather than leaving them flat or cutting them. I did record it direct, and should have ran through my BMax preamp instead. I actually expected that Thumb to record much better than this...I've sold it though! Next...

 

- There are a couple spots where the bassist (me) and the drummer (me) slip out of the pocket...if I had time, I would go back and re-track this...but I'm trying to get this done for a specific goal. I may go back and fix it in the near future however.

 

- The guitar IMO is mostly good, but does get a little too abrasive. I mostly like the guitar sound for this song. I wanted it to be a little raunchy...but not so abrasive that it hurts your ears if you crank the song.

 

- I don't agree the parts aren't complimentary...but my execution probably has more to do with this perception though than the arrangement.

 

- The whole mix is a bit mid-rangey...I'm still thinking I may need to boost the lows just a tad on the final mix...maybe something like 2-3 db below maybe 200Hz or so. Maybe just a tad of HF boost as well...not sure. I did the pseudo-mastering last night and will listen on the monitors and a couple of stereos today when I can make some noise.

 

- By "the effect on the vocals interfering with the other mids", I assume you are referring to the distortion on the rapped vocal? Yeah, I like the contrast between the distorted, rapped vocal and the other clean sung vocal...it did take a bit of tweaking to get the rapped vocal and the guitar out of each other's way though. I might still have to do a little more work on that.

 

Overall though, I still feel like this is pretty decent given the tools and time I have available to me. And I do appreciate all the constructive criticism's!

 

Thx!

Dave

 

[Gruuve]

Question: two folks commented that it didn't seem like the instrumental parts where complementary to each other. Do you think that is the arrangement itself, or my less-than-perfect performances of the arrangement? Just curious...this would be some really good constructive feedback.

 

TIA,

Dave

 

[yourlord]

I liked the song well enough. I just listened on my broken $.50 headphone on the computer here at work, which only has 1 working ear piece, so I really can't comment too much on the mix other than to say it's very mid-range heavy on such a crappy speaker. The drums were very low in the mix, and the bass drum was almost inaudible. The reverb was a little too over the top for my taste, it adds an interesting atmosphere, but maybe back it off *a little*.. I'm assuming you were after that effect, but it may allow some of the other intricacies of the performance to shine through. The bass is in your face in some parts, and almost inaudible in others. I'm not sure if that is by design or not. I'll give it a listen on a decent stereo later on and see how that changes my perception.

 

Also, I did hear the timing issues on 1 spot, but honestly I didn't notice it enough anywhere else to mention.

 

Give my compliments to the moaner!

 

 

[DavidMPires]

Ok music wise

 

At the first seconds the song seems to be drinking from Disturbed, second after Rage against the machine, I can hear a bit or Iron Maiden somewhere and eventually a bit of tool and dream theatre.

 

Personally I think you have some good stuff there, but its too crammed from the beginning to the end, seems like you start the music jumping and by the middle of the song theres no air to breath.

 

The bass seems to lack lows which would be useful to give it a more organic sound instead of a cutting sound; you will cut anyway with your fidliging at the end of the bars. The drums as good as they might be they seem to be quite raw, again lacking lows, they sound like pans (sorry) its a bit bin like. I liked the voice although as I said before theres a lack of dynamic. I would consider a bigger difference between chorus and verses. The guitars a la pantera just aint cutting, maybe they will in smaller doses.

 

This said I have to say that it doesnt seem a bad mixing, but they again I didnt heard the initial signal. When Ive recorded in studio the sound that goes from our amps / drums doesnt change very much, its more the frequency gate that is adjusted so they dont clash. I.e kick drum and bass are both low but using different frequency gates they will complement each other.

 

I bet you can get a better bass sound from that bass and technique.

 

Im sorry if this sounds detractive, but I personally would prefer an honest opinion instead of getting the normal its good opinion, we get that from family and friends, I would like to hear that song with a different mixing

 

[Gruuve]

...Im sorry if this sounds detractive, but I personally would prefer an honest opinion instead of getting the normal its good opinion, we get that from family and friends...

 

Absolutely agreed...there's no value in someone telling you what you want to hear.

[Seamy ALB]

I have to say Dave this reworked version definitly sounds alot more together. I think that the kick & bass are in the same freq and would need to be seperated. I think you should try mixing the flat sound of the warwick and pull the bass back a little bit. At times it sounds to in your face and the drums could be up some. The opening riff is great and it sounds like you are beliving the song a lot more. Overall I think the track is rocking a lot more, sorry I can't be more technical than that but recording isn't really my thing.

[TimR]

Excellent.

Maybe keep that synth/drum right into and under the whole band starting. That might give the first bit some cohesion.

I like the bass fill bits, but maybe play them up the octave.

 

Nice.

[getz out]

Sounds a lot like that 311 song, similar riff and rap part. I couldn't name the song, I'm not a big fan, but I can hear the hook (which is similar).

 

The bass and the drums are not tight enough to sound professional, if that is what you are looking for. I would re-track the bass or do some heavy editing.

[...]

Sounds a lot like that 311 song, similar riff and rap part. I couldn't name the song, I'm not a big fan, but I can hear the hook (which is similar).

 

The bass and the drums are not tight enough to sound professional, if that is what you are looking for. I would re-track the bass or do some heavy editing.

 

Indeed. Landing on "one" is never a bad thing. Unless you're playing a tumbao or something.

[bassbuddy]

In Salsa the 4 is the new 1 .....come on baby...shake your body....!!! I've been doing these Salsa/meringue/cumbia gigs down here in Miami. These latin people can dance, and even though I'm married, the women....OMG.

 

Best,

 

kENNy

[Gruuve]

OK, I've posted what will be the "final" mix for now (same filename/URL). It's a marginal improvement (I'm kinda polishing a t*rd at this point! ) But this is good enough for it's immediate purpose, regardless.

 

Some EQ on the bass helped with the feeling of cohesiveness just a bit, IMO. I used some multi-band compression (compressed the lows more than the mids and highs). But, you guys are definitely right, I do need to retrack some parts (and use a different bass...the Warwick has already been re-sold). I can't believe no one's mentioned the glaring drum rush on the very last chorus (but maybe no one has listended that far :-) ). And unfortunately, punching in on drums is really difficult...I'll have to retrack the whole drum parts (but then, I really needed to get better mic placement, particularly on the snare anyway).

 

We definitely learn by doing, don't we?

 

It's funny how you don't hear all those little mistakes when you've first tracked something...but then after you've listened to it a million times while working on the mix, every little clam just jumps out at you!

 

I actually think the ghost notes I'm doing on the bass in front of the "two" in the verses is most of what's creating the feeling of looseness. I'll leave those out when I re-track the bass. This is a good "less is more" lesson.

 

Also, I had the snare mic'ed from the bottom (relying on the overheads to pick up the "crack" from the top, which has worked quite well in the past). However, that's too much "wire" sound and not enough "head" sound. Will be moving that SM-57 to the top the next time I track drums.

 

And I do have to admit that I've kind of reached the point that I feel like I'm outgrowing what the Zoom MRS-1608 can do. It records well enough, but comes up quite short in the mixing/mastering area. I'm considering whether moving up to something like the Roland VS-2400 would be a good choice, or just going to a computer-based setup. I'm not sure I have the discipline necessary to keep a computer-based rig in the condition for spotless performance, so I tend to lean toward the all-in-one workstation types of deals. I think the Roland workstations come pretty close to what you can accomplish with a PC-based rig but also allow the "turn it on and it works without any fuss" feature, which I really like.

 

Thanks for listening and for all the constructive criticism's.

 

Dave