Gruuve Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Hey folks: I like crazy close action. I find that it tends to be most difficult to get really low action with the B and sometimes E strings. Since they are tuned lower, their vibrations are slower and thus the distance they vibrate covers is larger (compared to the higher-pitched strings). So, how I've typically compensated for that is by raising the action at the bridge for the B and usually E-strings, while it's lower for the higher-pitch strings. However, I'd like to get my B-string on the Warwick a little lower without uncontrollable buzz (controllable buzz is perfectly OK with me...in fact, I like it). I've got neck almost flat, so I'm thinking that perhaps I should loosen the truss rod just a bit and allow just a bit more relief in the neck. In theory, this should give the lower-pitch strings more room to vibrate without uncontrollable rattling against the higher frets. I'm thinking if I dial in a little more relief, I can likely lower the saddles at the bridge...hoping the neck effect here will be getting the action lower for the B-string and E-strings. Now, I honestly don't care at all if the B-string rattles above, say, the 15th-16th fret or so and higher, as I rarely or never play any notes that high on the B-string (and especially with this wide neck, it's uncomfortable to even try to reach those notes). I know opinions on neck relief vary by taste...can anyone confirm the result of my intentions (add relief and lower saddles = lower action) from prior experiences before I implement this? Dave Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 What string do you have on there now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Not positive (these were on it when I bought it), but I believe they are Rotosound Swingbass...the B is 0.125 and the E is 0.100. I could put a 0.130 B string on it, but I'm not really convinced that the additional tension (judging by D'Addario's tension charts, about 31.7 lbs for the 130 vs 30.1 lbs for the 125) helps that much toward the objective...the 0.125 B string *feels* taught enough on this Thumb. I guess I should clarify what I mean by "controllable buzz" versus "uncontrollable rattle". By controllable, I mean that if I pluck very lightly, I get a smooth sound with no fret clack on the attacks and no buzz on sustained notes, but if I dig in even slightly, I get a nice bright clack on the attack and some buzz on the sustain. By uncontrollable, I mean less consistent results, like there's no buzz on the attack but into the sustain it starts to rattle (when the waveform of the string vibrating changes shape as it decays). I like the clack and buzz personally (I know many folks absolutely do not!)as long as I can control when it clacks and buzzes versus having it decide when it's gonna clack-n-buzz. In the mix you don't *hear* the clacks and buzzes so much as just strong attack and a strong presence to the tone. That's my opinion/preference, although I admit it's a little unconventional. Dave Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 That's my opinion/preference, although I admit it's a little unconventional. Right. Sometimes you will not be able to have it both ways. There a Thumb 5 neck-through that plays beautifully. I usually have DR Highbeams with a .130 b-string. Low action, but you can only go so low before physics takes over. You bought the bass used? Go pay for a proper set-up to get a good starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groover Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 I know opinions on neck relief vary by taste...can anyone confirm the result of my intentions (add relief and lower saddles = lower action) from prior experiences before I implement this? Dave I can confirm this to a certain extent. The type of strings you have, how you play and neck tilt are also big factors. When I set up a bass for someone who likes low action I start by adjusting the neck for a slight amount of relief and then adjust the bridge saddles to get the desired action. I will tune the bass and set intonation then play it up and down the neck. If it buzzes at the lower end (towards the nut) of the fret board, I will add a little more relief, if it buzzes at the upper frets I straighten the neck a little. On a few occasions I needed to make a slight adjustment in neck tilt to make it work. Most recently I worked on an '82 US Precision Bass Elite II that needed slightly more relief than normal and a slight amount of neck tilt to get the action down to 3/32" without buzzing. Once I got it there, there was almost nothing you could do to make it buzz and it felt great all the way up and down the neck. The owner was so thrilled that he paid me $100 for what amounted to two hours worth of work. I don't normally charge, I enjoy helping other bass players out and it gives me some good experience. There have been a few basses that I worked on that no matter what I did I could not get the acttion low without bad buzzing. These were all lower end basses with bad fret work and/or warped neck. If you have decent quality basses, which you obviously have, you should have no problem getting reasonably low action out of your B and E strings. And it won't hurt to try. Just don't turn your truss rod more than a quarter turn at a time and let your bass sit for an hour or two after each adjustment. Enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Actually, I much prefer to do this myself...I've never had a paid setup that was nearly as good as what I can do myself! Groover, I pretty much do the same approach...dial in minimal relief first, then set saddle height. I typically get the neck relief and bridge height adjusted such that it buzzes evenly up and down the neck (if it buzzes the same high and low, then I know I've got the neck "right"), then I raise the action slightly at the saddles to eliminate the desired buzz. As I've got it now, if I lower the B-string at the saddle, it buzzes from about the 5th fret on up. That would suggest making the neck flatter BUT I do know if you get it too flat, then the larger diameter strings don't have enough room to vibrate since their cycles are slower and longer. Dave Hmmm...here's a thought, since it doesn't even think about buzzing in the 1st 5 frets, I could possible lower the nut height for that string maybe a tad...this Thumb has the adjust-a-nut I, and there's probably room to lower it, I'll check. Dave Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
music-man Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Can you tell where it's buzzing (i.e. what frets are making contact with the string)? It may not be that changing the neck relief will make any difference at all - for example, if it's buzzing on frets near your fretting finger, or at the bridge end of your fingerboard. Put differently, introducing "more bow" into the neck increases the string height at frets in the middle of the neck more than at frets toward the nut and neck joint ... so unless the neck is exceedingly flat right now, and you're getting buzz between frets 7-12, it may not help much to introduce more relief. I had the same thought as Maury - I'd try heavier guage strings (on my fretted 5 I have a heavy B, and it does make a difference). And I also agree with Maury that I would take it to a good tech (i.e. one who will adjust to your requirements) to get an initial setup and once-over. This is particularly true since you say you like "crazy low" action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Geoff Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Mmmm, I'd be careful about introducing relief *and* lowering the saddles. You could get unwanted rattle off the highest frets whether you planned for it or not. However, give it a try & see how it goes. My personal preference is for an almost straight board, DR HiBeams 130 B and lift the saddles till the rattle - which may possibly be audible by ear from the fretboard - is not heard over the amp. When I saw Guy Pratt at the Edinburgh Fringe, I was sitting not more than 6 feet away from him, and when he played (68 Jazz)I was surprised by the amount of rattle I could hear coming from the *fretboard*, but none was audible over the amp. Geoff "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the World will know Peace": Jimi Hendrix http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=738517&content=music The Geoff - blame Caevan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky McDougall Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Dave, increasing the relief is going to raise the action on all strings, have you thought about a liitle shimming at the nut on the big strings?Rocky "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb, voting on what to eat for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb, contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 When I saw Guy Pratt at the Edinburgh Fringe, I was sitting not more than 6 feet away from him, and when he played (68 Jazz)I was surprised by the amount of rattle I could hear coming from the *fretboard*, but none was audible over the amp. Geoff Actually, that is very true. A lot of the buzzes don't come through the amp nearly as much as you would expect. That's why I like a little bit of buzz...unless you have a lot of highs dialed in for some reason, these buzzes tend to come across as "grittiness", especially with other intruments in the mix. I always do these setups unplugged that way I can clearly hear how much buzz I'm actually getting from the bass itself. THEN, after I think I've got it nearly right, I plug into an amp to check it. You pretty much always hear more buzz and rattle unplugged than you do plugged in. Dave Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Why is this thread so long? Adjust the height and get over it. There isn't anything else you are going to do that is going to make any difference - except maybe selling the bass and moving on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Hmmm...here's a thought, since it doesn't even think about buzzing in the 1st 5 frets, I could possible lower the nut height for that string maybe a tad...this Thumb has the adjust-a-nut I, and there's probably room to lower it, I'll check. Dave +1 I think that analysis is spot-on. All action begins at the nut. IMO, the amount you need to depress the string from open string to 1st fret should equal the amount you need to depress the string on the 2nd fret with the first fret already depressed. Does that make any sense at all? Anyway, I'm willing to bet you've got a winner. Peace Paul K Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Be a man, play with higher action! Alex Barefaced Ltd - ultra lightweight, high ouput, toneful bass cabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted November 30, 2007 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 Be a man, play with higher action! Alex Some of my basses do have higher action...but the neck seems so accurate on this one that I just can't resist seeing how low I can actually get it! Dave Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted November 30, 2007 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Changing your righthand technique may help some as well. Try plucking closer to the bridge when you play the B string -- this will also change the tone to some extent, but may reduce some of the floppiness you're experiencing. "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getz out Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 I've never had a paid setup that was nearly as good as what I can do myself! Well then, it sounds like a perfect time to finally get a proper set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 Hmmm...well Maury, maybe you have a point. I may see who I can find locally who is highly skilled... Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 I take it the nut adjustment didn't work? You're not going to wimp out on us DIY'ers now, are you?????? Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottomgottem Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Be a man, play with higher action! Alex Word! My whole trick is to keep the tune well out in front. If I play Tchaikovsky, I play his melodies and skip his spiritual struggle. ~Liberace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruuve Posted December 1, 2007 Author Share Posted December 1, 2007 I take it the nut adjustment didn't work? You're not going to wimp out on us DIY'ers now, are you?????? Actually, just haven't gotten around to it yet...going to play it tommorrow in church, so I'm leaving it alone until tommorrow afternoon. Old bass players never die, they just buy lighter rigs. - Tom Capasso, 11/9/2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcadmus Posted December 1, 2007 Share Posted December 1, 2007 Hmmm...well Maury, maybe you have a point. I may see who I can find locally who is highly skilled... ' The set-up and repair guy over at Fat Sound in Raleigh used to be pretty good -- Mark Kane, I think his name is. Don't know if he's still there -- been awhile since I lived in Raleigh. "Tours widely in the southwestern tip of Kentucky" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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