rog951 Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 OK you guys. I can't believe it's time already but I'm starting to seriously consider a new machine. My current P4 1.7GHz is fine, but it's my (actually, "our" now that I'm married!) only computer and it has slowly become much less of an "audio-centric" machine over its short life...there's just no way to easily keep all the extra crap from polluting this machine. Plus, it's really, really loud and I have to record in the same room with it. Bummer. So, my new plan is to keep this machine to act as my internet/gaming/office tool and to get a new, quiet, possibly rack-mount machine that will truly be for audio ONLY. I'm currently running Sonar with an Echo Layla 24 and using a Tascam US-428 for a control surface and an Oxygen 8 for MIDI input. I started to poke around for system prices and, obviously, the AMD systems are cheaper by a good bit. I realize that "I can't go wrong with Intel" and all that stuff, but I wanted to kinda solicit info from people who might have some experience with AMD systems and hardware/software similar to mine. I'm no Intel snob, I just want my stuff to work and work well. If I can make that happen with an AMD system great...more money left over for my microphone fetish. If not, that's okay too. Lastly, I should say that I'm not averse to putting my own system together but, lately, time management has become a big issue and I'd rather buy a system if possible. Since the "quiet" part is probably the biggest impetus for my getting the new machine in the first place, I'm actually considering some of the turnkey DAW places too, although I realize the price hit I'm likely to take. Anyway, I've blabbed enough...I'd appreciate any ideas/advice you guys might be able to throw at me. Thanks! None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]I realize that "I can't go wrong with Intel" [/b][/quote]Not exactly true,as Intel chipsets have been having their share of problems as well,not to mention the de-normal problem which doesn't seem to wan't to go away and seems to manifest itself in new way's now.Anyway,Iv'e been building AMD systems for years,and use Sonar exclusively so I believe I can be of help.At the moment the 333FSB T-Bred B actually still has an edge over the newer Bartons so I'd stay there until the Hammers come down in price a year from now.The newest and best chipsets for AMD at the moment are NForce 2,and SiS 746/748.The A7N8X is a proven choice but a little pricey and won't do DDR 400 as a base speed,neither will the SiS 746,but the 748 will.I just built a new system for my brother with the fairly new ECS L7S7A2(SiS 746)with Hi Pref PC 2700 Mushkin DDR and its fast as hell and solid and about $60.00 cheaper than the Asus A7n8X(NForce 2).So stick with either NForce 2 or SiS 746/748,if you go with a board based on the 748,you'll be able to take advantage of DDR 400,otherwise stick with DDR 333.Don't screw around with generic PSU,use only Enermax/Antec or Sparkle at least 400W,stick with quality DDR(Mushkin/Micron/Crucial,I use "only" Mushkin ordered directly from them period if that tells you anything.Ati Agp is been solid with both chipsets and seemingly all audio cards,get one of the newer 8x's.After that I'd reccommend the WD 8mb cache drive's.Stick with Asus/Abit/Msi or ECS for mobo's with the above named chipsets.Have fun,if you need any help or details,let me know. "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Don't be afraid of building it yourself,building these day's is nothing more than assembling a few componnents and loading the OS,I could probably instruct my 7 year old nephew to do it in less than an hour.As far as noise,the Vantec Aeroflow has been dead silent,but won't fit with the ECS L7S7A2 unless you mod it yourself.Also the new Antec PSU's are very quiet as well.These day's since Intel hasn't changed thier core and AMD did,the noise issue is about even from 2800 on. "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 Thanks for the good info! I had a feeling that AMDs were likely pretty stable by now. I'm too tired to think much more about it tonight...I'll start studying again tomorrow morning! None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I just put together a system based upon a Shuttle [url=http://us.shuttle.com/specs2.asp?pro_id=284]XPC[/url] mini-PC that runs the NForce2 chipset. This is an amazing little system, as it's quiet, fast, and ultra portable. I use an Echo Mona interface with it and it's fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spokenward Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by D Man: [b]I just put together a system based upon a Shuttle [url=http://us.shuttle.com/specs2.asp?pro_id=284]XPC[/url] mini-PC that runs the NForce2 chipset. This is an amazing little system, as it's quiet, fast, and ultra portable. I use an Echo Mona interface with it and it's fantastic.[/b][/quote]this is interesting and I have a bunch of questions. Which CPU did you use? Have you used it with FireWire devices? What are temps running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim P. Dyndale Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Depends on how much you've got, but I know I, personally, really want a dual Opteron set-up :o ) -Joachim Dyndale -------------------- Einstein: The difference between genius and stupidity is: Genius has limits My Blog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spokenward Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 double post - bad brain day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spokenward Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by spokenward: [b] [quote]Originally posted by D Man: [b]I just put together a system based upon a Shuttle [url=http://us.shuttle.com/specs2.asp?pro_id=284]XPC[/url] mini-PC that runs the NForce2 chipset. This is an amazing little system, as it's quiet, fast, and ultra portable. I use an Echo Mona interface with it and it's fantastic.[/b][/quote]this is interesting and I have a bunch of questions. Which CPU did you use? Have you used it with FireWire devices? What are temps running?[/b][/quote]I'm using an Athlon XP 2200, only cuz it happened to be bundled with the system. It's plenty fast for me now, but I'm sure that I'll upgrade to a Barton at a later date. Here's the other specs: Windows XP Home (2) 512 MB DDR DIMMS 80 GB Seagate UDMA 66 HD (Black) Yamaha F1 CDR-W That's it, everything else is onboard. I don't have any Firewire devices to test out unfortunatley. The beauty of this system is that even with everything on-board enabled that my PCI soundcard get's it's own IRQ. I haven't checked the CPU temp recently, so I'll check back on that later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halljams Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I just built that Leoni machine with 2 Athlon MP 2400(2gig)'s and a gig of Crucial ddr reg ram. Tyan s2460 MB It was pretty cheap for the basics. Plus i got 2 80gig WD 8mg cache j-series drives as suggested by our local PC master. And Win XP Pro. It works, it's fast, and it's got some serious horse power. As in 20 to 30 plugs, no probs reverbs included. I transfered a tune we did in acid to sonar with over a hundred tracks(most tracks just had little clips but i still ran them as a whole track) and with some buffer adjustment, it ran. The [url=http://www.ncix.com/]Place[/url] i got it from put it together for free and gave me some free removable drive bays. There is a US outlet as well. I reccomend checking them out anyway, call for a quote, they are very helpful. Check out SUPERVIBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Cool! Thanks everybody for all the info. Sounds like the AMD won't be a problem at all...more people here are using them successfully than I expected! My wallet is giddy... D Man: I saw those cute little Shuttle machines mentioned at digifreq.com recently. The guy that writes the "Sonar Power" books (among others) just built up one for his own personal use. Not a bad endorsement. Halljams: Do you have a link to the latest Leoni article? I looked at prorec.com and the newest RYO I can find is for a single CPU Athlon project and it seems a little out of date already. I'd be very interested in hearing about any perceived performance gain coming from the use of dual Athlons. I really don't think I need the horsepower but that certainly never stopped me before!!! A couple things I'd love to see elaborated on more are soundproofing (quietest fans, etc...this thing really has to be as quiet as possible) and rackmountable enclosures. This is my chance to have a truly dedicated DAW. No internet, no Real Player, no nothing. Just a machine that runs Sonar and a bunch of plug-ins well. And, as usual, I want to do it as right as possible for as cheap as possible. Thanks again for all your advice so far!!! :thu: None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudist Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 D-Man, how do you get around the single hard drive bay issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 there was a [url=http://www.musicgearnetwork.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012244#000005]thread[/url] on this a while back. check it out -- it should solve all of your noise problems. robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by loudist: [b]D-Man, how do you get around the single hard drive bay issue?[/b][/quote]There are actually two 3 and 1/2" bays, so you could have two hard drives if you don't install a floppy disk drive. You can always hook up an external hardd rive with firewire as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 I found a coupla interesting places that will put together a rack-mounted system fairly cheaply. Anybody ever use these guys? [url=http://dawbox.com]*click me por favor*[/url] How about these guys? [url=http://www.adkproaudio.com]*click here too yo*[/url] Tanx! :) None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]I found a coupla interesting places that will put together a rack-mounted system fairly cheaply. [/b][/quote]Keep in mind that if you wan't to have a 2800+ chip,those small rackmount enclosiers will generate a lot of heat forcing you to get a louder and faster CPU fan,and ventelating fans.If like you say noise is an issue,not the best way to go,unless your considering water cooling. "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Alndlng King: [b] [quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]I found a coupla interesting places that will put together a rack-mounted system fairly cheaply. [/b][/quote]Keep in mind that if you wan't to have a 2800+ chip,those small rackmount enclosiers will generate a lot of heat forcing you to get a louder and faster CPU fan,and ventelating fans.If like you say noise is an issue,not the best way to go,unless your considering water cooling.[/b][/quote]Thanks. Noise is definitely the big issue here. But, the case I'm looking at is 4U high. It's also fairly deep. Just eyeing it up, I'm thinking its dimensions are not too much smaller than my full tower. If I'm missing something obvious, please let me know but it seems to me that it's pretty comparable in size. As far as processors go; the more I poke around, the more confused I'm getting about AMD's part naming/numbering conventions. I see Palomino, Thoroughbred, Barton and I've heard Thunderbird in the past too. Then there's the numbers. I can currently choose from a 1700+ Palomino up to a 3200+ Barton. But, for example, it looks like the 2400+ runs at a faster clock speed than the 2500+. Why? Is it that the 2500+'s front side bus is faster or something? Whacky. Someone just tell me what to buy! :) None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b][ As far as processors go; the more I poke around, the more confused I'm getting about AMD's part naming/numbering conventions. [/b][/quote]Ok,the Palomino is old news and the Thunderbird is even older news.Apart from the Hammer,the Barton is the newest,but not neccessarily the fastest or best bargain.Although the Barton comes in a higher FSB(400FSB),the Bartons are actually clocked slower than the T-Bred b's.The best value at the moment is a 2600-2800 333FSB T-Bred B(Thuroughbred).The NForce 2 or SiS 746 chipsets support this chip.Although you can pop in a 3,000 400FSB Barton in an NForce 2 board,it doesn't support 400FSB as a base speed,only the SiS 748 supports it as a base speed correctly and the upcoming NForce 3.Like I said earlier,I just built a system for my brother based on the SiS 746 chipset,and the board we used was the somewhat new ECS L7S7A2($65.00) which supports 333FSB T-Bred b's.The board is rock solid and has all the same features(onboard Serial Ata/Lan ect.) as the Asus A7N8X and is a bit faster.But like I said though,any board based on either the SiS 746 or NForce 2 on Asus/Abit/Msi or ECS is just fine,your pick.Also as far as dual goes,the fastest chips are 266FSB 2800 MP chips,which run around $280.00 a piece and don't support 333,or 400FSB(faster memory).The boards are based on the older AMD 760/761 chipset which is a Via hybrid,while still viable,not the fastest or most powerfull kid on the block anymore,and the new chipsets boards have come a long way since the AMD 760/761. "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polyt Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. King, but I've heard of at least two Nforce 2 mfgers that have issued board revisions to support the 400 fsb. In the case of the A7N8X, this would be revision 2.0, and it will say "400 fsb" or something on the box. Me, I got a 1.04, and a 1.06. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by polyt: [b]Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. King, but I've heard of at least two Nforce 2 mfgers that have issued board revisions to support the 400 fsb. [/b][/quote]Well,rev. 2 is nothing more than a bios update.Most people still can't run PC 3200 at 200/200 sucsessfully.Most people run it just under at 199/199,and even then not that stable.When the NForce 2 was released,AMD just broke through with the new core and 333FSB just prior,and the 400FSB Barton's weren't on the roadmap yet.So the board may support 400FSB on paper,it's not doing so well in reality for that.My advice still stands,if you want 400FSB get the SiS 748 or wait for the NForce 3,2 chipsets that were designed to support 400FSB as a base speed.I don't keep up on the NForce 2's progress everyday,but if you wan't, update your bios,get PC3200 and run it at 200/200,run Memtest and see what you get. "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcskid Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by rog951: [b]OK you guys. I can't believe it's time already but I'm starting to seriously consider a new machine. My current P4 1.7GHz is fine, but it's my (actually, "our" now that I'm married!) only computer and it has slowly become much less of an "audio-centric" machine over its short life...there's just no way to easily keep all the extra crap from polluting this machine. Plus, it's really, really loud and I have to record in the same room with it. Bummer. [/b][/quote]HI, a few things to keep in mind with the newer systems out there right now. both AMD (with the Nforce) and Intel with 875P or Sis655 are Dual Channel DDR. they are ourperforming Rambus in a big way for bandwidth particularly the Intel 875P. also with the 875P chipset the Serial ATA drives are NO LONGER ON THE PCI BUS!!! and if you get one with giga lan that is also off the PCI bus.. we were big AMD fans and still are however with the recent price drops on intel processors and the hugh performance gains on the newer motherboards (800 FSB) i recommend P4. its only $100-$150 more than same AMD system. someone mentioned the Shuttle box's they are awesome, the AMD uses the Nforce and the new P4 is 800fsb and dual channel 865P chipset. they make great Giga box's or a portable DAW. with firewire onboard your not limited to storage space. the P4 shuttle is quieter than the AMD but both are acceptable to most. the newer Antec Sonata cases for full size systems are unbelievably QUIET. GOOD LUCK Scott ADK Pro Audio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 Alndlng King: Thanks again for all your help and for taking the time to go into such detail. Regarding chipsets/mobos: I'll clip in below what I found at Echo Audio's website. Is there any viable choice from the "approved" list? I'm sure there is some lag between the introduction of a new chipset and Echo's ability to fully test it but I'd like to stay compliant if it's possible. Also, I found some horror stories regarding Sis chipsets and soundcard compatibility, but I got the feeling I was reading older information. Do you know anything about this? Anyway, here's the Echo information: AMD CHIPSET GUIDE AMD Athlon processors work well with Echo Digital Audio hardware. You will need a motherboard with one of the following chipsets: AMD 760 (761,762 or 766) - Note: the AMD 560 series is not compatible with Echo Hardware AMD760MP (Multi Processor) VIA KX-133 VIA KT-133 & 133A VIA KT266 & KT266, 266a VIA KT333 VIA KT400 These recommended chipsets are now available on motherboards from numerous manufacturers. Follow the link below to get more information on VIA chipsets (http://www.via.com.tw/en/index/index.jsp). There are many motherboards that support AMD processors. ASUS, TYAN, Gigabyte, and others have been tested and work with Echo hardware. MSI (Micro Star International) and ABIT boards may not work well, and are not recommended at this time. AMD K6 processors and Intel processors with a non-Intel chipsets are not supported. This may or may not work. Officially, AMD K6 processors and Pentiums with non-Intel chipets are not supported. Some users have enjoyed success while others experience lockups or other problems. None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Echo's list is very outdated. I wouldn't recommend any VIA chipset board to anyone buying new. Like it's already been said, stick with Sis or NForce chipsets if your using an AMD CPU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by jcskid: [b][QUOTE]HI, a few things to keep in mind with the newer systems out there right now. both AMD (with the Nforce) and Intel with 875P or Sis655 are Dual Channel DDR. they are ourperforming Rambus in a big way for bandwidth particularly the Intel 875P. also with the 875P chipset the Serial ATA drives are NO LONGER ON THE PCI BUS!!! and if you get one with giga lan that is also off the PCI bus.. we were big AMD fans and still are however with the recent price drops on intel processors and the hugh performance gains on the newer motherboards (800 FSB) i recommend P4. its only $100-$150 more than same AMD system. someone mentioned the Shuttle box's they are awesome, the AMD uses the Nforce and the new P4 is 800fsb and dual channel 865P chipset. they make great Giga box's or a portable DAW. with firewire onboard your not limited to storage space. the P4 shuttle is quieter than the AMD but both are acceptable to most. the newer Antec Sonata cases for full size systems are unbelievably QUIET. GOOD LUCK Scott ADK Pro Audio[/b][/quote]Scott, sorry I missed your reply earlier. Thanks very much for the info. ADK is one of the places I'm currently looking into. Can you provide some insight into the quietness factor of the different rack-mount cases you guys sell vs the new Sonata? I'd like to rack-mount if possible but I won't take a noise hit. Thanks! None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alndln Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by D Man: [b]Echo's list is very outdated. I wouldn't recommend any VIA chipset board to anyone buying new. Like it's already been said, stick with Sis or NForce chipsets if your using an AMD CPU.[/b][/quote]Exactly.SiS 746 and NForce 2 are proven with Echo Audio and are the best chipset's availible for AMD/Echo.Unfortunately, only the AMD 760/761 exsists for dual and is outdated and stuck at 266FSB.The 333/400FSB single system's are outperforming them handily.Right now the best value is a 2700 333FSB T-Bred B($131.00)(Pricewatch)on a NForce 2 or SiS 746 based board.Get eother Mushkin or Crucial Hi Pref PC 2700 DDR directly from their respective sites.You'll pay way more for a 400FSB Barton and PC 3200 with not much gain.Here's the current chip prices at PriceWatch. [url=http://www.pricewatch.com/]www.pricewatch.com/[/url] "A Robot Playing Trumpet Blows" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rog951 Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 Thanks to everyone for all the info. Y'all came through for me again! :thu: None more black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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