preproduction critque of our music

[yourlord]

Well, everyone else is doing it so I figured I would as well.

 

I wanted to get opinions on what we have recorded. Most of our recorded songs will be redone before ever being released and these are simply concept recordings. we have no singer so you'll have to imagine vocals on them. also, while we have a drummer, we haven't had him long enough to get him up-to-speed and recorded yet so you'll hear my computer playing the drums. So really this is a request for a critique of the strings , mix and song itself.

 

I'm linking to our myspace page since it will play our most mature song. Our main website would probably not handle a bunch of you trying to download a bunch of 160Kbps+ ogg and mp3 files at the same time, but if you want to check out the other recordings we have feel free to get them off our site.

 

Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/delusionalm

 

Thanks in advance, and be brutally honest.

 

Our website is in my sig.

 

 

[Thomas Wilburn]

I think this is the kind of music where your lead singer is going to make or break it. Right now it sounds like a pretty competent video game background tune.

 

You might consider easing up on the fuzz for your guitarist. It's all kind of blended together into a big digital blur in the background. I think even in metal music of this mode, you'll find that the distortion is not quite as heavy as you might play live. Instead, it's layered from a bunch of less-distorted guitar tracks into that patented wall-o-sound.

 

Also, for your drummer? Consider keeping the computer. It won't get drunk and hit on the waitresses.

[yourlord]

That's been one of the goals I'm targeting is to "thin out" the distortion on the guitars (there are 2) a bit to make everything a little more well defined. The song on the myspace page is really meant to be a vocal focused song so It's somewhat repetitive. It's just the most "mature" of those we actually have recorded. We have many other songs in the wings that are far more melodically complex (my contribution to the cause).

 

Nice to know I have some support in the distortion department though. Our rhythm guitarist is one of those run the distortion pedal into the amp's overdrive channel types.

 

Also, for your drummer? Consider keeping the computer. It won't get drunk and hit on the waitresses.

 

I was thinking along those lines, but when playing live the computer isn't as exciting for the audience to watch.

[alexclaber]

Didn't I read some posts not so long ago where vocals and lyrics were decried as solely a sop to commercialism, not an important part of the artform?

 

With great lyrics and vocals (near impossible to come by in metal as a genre - but worth trying for) then it could be something good. It reminds me of prime era Metallica in the melodic movement and straight tight feel - which is both a strength and a weakness - catchy but potentially dated. Could go either way...

 

Good luck with the vocalist challenge!

 

Alex

[yourlord]

You should also remember that I mentioned I capitulated my stance on vocals because the rest of the band wanted them. In doing that I also have the final yes or no on any vocalist we try out. I intend to only say yes to an awesome singer.

 

I didn't write the song. Just the bass line for it after the fact.

 

As far as the music goes, I'm aiming more for the Iron Maiden to Dream Theater direction. The newer songs we produce will be more along those lines. We're very likely to rewrite a fair amount of this song as well to break it up some more. That's why I'm asking for criticism here. I've stated before that I couldn't care less what the general public thinks about our music. I want musicians to like it. Well, you guys are musicians, and therefore I care what you guys think.

 

[Robitaille59]

I agree with Thomas Wilborn that your vocalist is really going to make it or break. With Dream Theater and Maiden as the ideal sound to go for you have good taste in metal so hopefully they vocalist you find and the lyrical content will live up to those standards.

 

It's hard to evaluate without a vocal track because that makes it kind of repititious.

 

I like it, there was quite a bit of texture to it and I liked the bass part you played during the first guitar solo. Reminiscent of Cliff Burton, in fact almost the whole composition was similar to Metallica during the Cliff days but there was enough of an original spin to make it your own.

 

My only real critique would be the engineering on the guitar, this goes for rhythm and lead, the sound is over processed. I don't mean overly distorted but the sound is not organic at all. If I were producing the track I would try for a more natural sounding guitar sound by micing the cabinets and not using any kind of guitar cab emulation. The guitar sounds like it was recorded by plugging an effects processor directly into the board.

I think the sound you guys are shooting for is like James Hetfield on Master of Puppets or Kirk Hammett on ...and Justice for all (for the leads). That's Gibson into Mesa Boogie...just my opinion.

 

[The Bear Jew]

I gave a listen to two songs from the band web page--"Insanity's Realm" and "There and Back."

 

You guys certainly have an early Metallica thing happening. It's fun. There's always a core audience for this kind of sound. It goes in and out of the underground and into the mainstream from time to time--not that you guys are looking for a mainstream audience.

 

It does seem that you will need some kind of lead voice to add the extra element this music is lacking. Not necessarily a vocalist per se, but something to establish a melodic counterpoint to the backing progressions. Personally, I think a violinist or a flautist would be a very interesting choice as a lead voice for this kind of metal. That'd be unconventional and give you an individual edge. It'd also keep you from having to deal with a singer.

 

Regardless, I do agree with Mr. Wilburn... the guitar tones are overly saturated to the point of lost definition. The two guitars are also difficult to distinguish from each other, which does hurt the dynamic of using two different players. If the guitarists back off on the distortion and try different, yet complimentary tones, you will actually wind up with a fuller sound. When it comes to recording guitars, sometimes a tone that sounds sort of small on its own can sound HUGE in a mix. You'd be suprised at how many massive, scary guitar sounds are actually kind of clean.

 

This concept also allows the bass to breathe a bit and lets you put less actual super-duper low-end on the bass guitar, which means the bass will also have more definition and be less boomy.

 

Overall, I'd be interested to hear versions with a drummer playing instead of a drum machine. I think you're doing good work.

[yourlord]

The input is greatly appreciated. I've been pining to clean up the guitars as well. I do love a good thick distortion at times but I tend to feel the same about the guitars kind of mashing together into a mess. Both our guitarists are very good and I would like their individual talents to come through. (as well as their distortion not burying me as much!)

 

Rob, you hit the nail right on the head. We're running from the guitar amp outputs directly into the mixing board. We did this because both of them are running stereo effects and stereo amps and that was the only way we could think of to really preserve them. Maybe we'll ditch caring about the stereo effects and just mic the cabs. We have some excellent mics so we should be able to make something work.

 

The repetition is another issue I want to address. I can handle some repetition as it helps to tie the song together, but in that regard I want to land somewhere between Iron Maiden and Dream Theater (fair amount of repetition to almost none).

 

Again I bump heads with my brother on this as he clings to the simple sells mantra while I am spouting the simple sucks mantra..

 

The tie to Metallica is very valid as Cliff is one of my major influences. Both guitarists are also old Metallica fans as well.

 

CMDN, I desperately want a keyboard player. I would rather have keyboards than a vocalist (or a vocalist that plays the keys)..

 

If I have my way, most of our songs will be good enough to stand without vocals. But that's if I get my way.

 

Please continue with any ideas, criticisms, praises, hatreds, etc. I really want to get a good spectrum of ideas here to present to the band.

[The Bear Jew]

Yourlord...

Something you wrote made me think...

 

Simple doesn't always sell, but it doesn't always suck, either.

 

By the same token, complicated stuff, while fun to play, isn't necessarily interesting to hear.

 

The key is to create something compelling, regardless of whether it's simple or complex.

 

I remember, years ago, crafting a very complicated bridge for a song with my band... we had time signature changes, key changes, unison riffs... it was involved as hell, and we were really proud of it...

 

We played the song for a *big* producer. He loved everything about the song except for the bridge. He said it seemed "unmotivated and directionless." We were all pissed, because we were in love with the nifty thing we wrote. We basically told him he wasn't going to make us into some homogenous pop-rock schlock and take away our "edge."

 

But... we knew he knew a thing or three about songs and what works and what doesn't... so we sat down and listened to the song for a while. We had to admit that the middle part, as cool as it was to play, didn't make much sense in the context of the rest of the song.

 

We wound up pulling that bridge out and replacing it with a variation of the chorus that incorporated elements of the verse and a break beat. It was better, and the song was more cohesive.

 

When you play metal, it's always easier to keep writing bits and stick them into a song when you know you need to do something different for flavor but you don't know what to do next. And I agree, it's boring for the listener as well as the band when you repeat the same stuff over and over...

 

Variations on a theme, my man. Flip a riff, break it in half, change the beat... you'd be suprised at how many different ways there are to get more mileage out of something you've already written.

 

 

[alexclaber]

Variations on a theme, my man. Flip a riff, break it in half, change the beat... you'd be suprised at how many different ways there are to get more mileage out of something you've already written.

 

As found in many great orchestral works - they seem to find a good hook and extrapolate it to the nth degree - but it does work!

 

Alex

[yourlord]

That's what I mean though. I want to dance around a progression, not repeat it note for note each time. I have no problems with repeating a common theme within parts of a song. This gives it cohesion. But, I also don't want to repeat the same riff over and over.

 

Let me clarify "simple sucks". I mean that in the context of the whole song. If the whole song is a single riff regurgitated over and over then it sucks. If there is a part that calls for a mellow groove behind the guitars or vocals in a section then great, as long as the whole song isn't in that mode.

 

One of the recordings we have on our site is called "Chunk" and it's my brother's favorite recording. It literally is the exact same 2 progressions over and over, but when you sit down a group of average joes and ask them which of our songs they like the most, most of them pick Chunk. I like the riff well enough, but it's so boring to play it over and over and I get major resistance from my brother when I suggest any kind of changes.

 

I'm fine with playing simple riffs when it's needed in the song. Even in "There and Back Again" I play a 4 chord line for 6 full sections of the song(laying a foundation for the melodic guitar part and the vocals that will one day be there). I just don't want most of our music to be in that category. I understand that it's sometimes best to have simple parts to a song.

 

I don't know. I'm in this for the fun of it, and I like complicated lines that push me to my limits. In the midst of those I also like a nice easy part thrown in from time to time (time to rest the fingers!). I've said before I couldn't really care less about the commercial aspect, but the rest of the band does.

 

If I play a show I want the other bassists/musicians in the audience to watch and listen to me and think, "that guy can play". I don't want teenie boppers throwing their panties at me because they aren't qualified to judge what is good music, IMO.

 

[_Sweet Willie_]

If I play a show I want the other bassists/musicians in the audience to watch and listen to me and think, "that guy can play". I don't want teenie boppers throwing their panties at me because they aren't qualified to judge what is good music, IMO.

 

I have yet to play a show during which panties were thrown at me. I can't say that I'd necessarily find that a bad thing...

 

I don't need anyone in the audience to think, "that guy can play," when they hear me at a show. I just want folks to leave happy because they enjoyed the music, my playing be damned.

 

That's just my dos pesos, however.

 

Peace.

--SW

 

[Phil W]

+1 SW

[The Bear Jew]

S-Dubbbs...

Agreed.

 

While it is nice to be complimented on my playing, I'd rather audiences be impressed with my band's overall performance and songs than lil' ol' me and my playing. The bass is just one part of a band's sound. Sure, a crap bassist can break a band, but an awesome bassist won't make a crap band with crap material any better for the average listener or other musicians. If anything, musicians watching a band like that tend to say stuff like, "Why is that amazing bassist playing with those hacks?"

 

I have panties thrown my way (or bosoms exposed to me) while playing onstage often enough ('cuz ahm deeeaad sexxay)... but I also have folks telling me we have great songs after our set. If we, as a band, are doing our jobs correctly, all the audience hears is great songs played by a good band that puts on a good show--not a super bassist or a fantastic drummer or whatever. It means we're doing what we're supposed to be doing--entertaining the audience with catchy music and giving them a compelling show.

 

The panty-throwing and booby-showing/signing is a nice perk of the biz, and it's usually a sign that either we're doing our job well or they're intoxicated. Or both. It can get old after a while, but, then again, it also gets old to have dudes coming up to you and asking what year your bass is, what kind of pedals you use or (when you're out of town) if you can get them shows in your city.

[Phil W]

My most frequent musician in audience comment is 'Do you do sessions?' Unfortunately they're not ususally offering work - more a line similar to a gy who asks a girl 'Are you a model?'

 

I'm happy if , like last weekend, everybody is dancing or at least moving to the rhythm. If they don't notice the bass, sometimes that means we're doing our job.

 

Music is a great source of enjoyment for many, not just musos, and we can help them enjoy it.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread a little, yourlord. I will have a listen over the weekend. Can't get ionto MySpace right now!

[zeronyne]

I hate when guys throw panties at me and expose their breasts...it makes me feel cheap. I just HAVE to quit this praise band...

[getz out]

09, I hear that. Man-thong is gross.

[getz out]

I cannot give a full opinion based on your request, YL. The sequenced drums are too distracting, especially the long drum fills. I would have rather heard the music without the sequenced drums. I cannot imagine vocals, since it would completely change the song.

 

However, at least you have identified your target market; you want the musos to like you. Nothing wrong with that. If you want validation from musos, then at least you know what you are looking for.

 

I tend to be the reverse; if the musos like it, I scrap the song.

 

But, based upon what I read here, you want a progressive, chops metal band. Honestly, what you have posted is probably not up to snuff for that crowd, especially in the guitar department. There is definitely some slop and not a lot of shred. Even though this is preproduction, you are in a very controlled environment with a computer for a drummer. I would expect tighter for this genre and more shred. Take a listen to www.helion.fi for a good example of progressive metal. I heard the guy who did some spoken word part for them kicks all kinds of ass. The bass player is a nice guy, from what I hear, too.

[yourlord]

Really looking more for the progressive rock to metal area. I love some good progressive rock. We also like good old fashioned 80's heavy/thrash metal, and that's more the genre that posted song was intended for. The songs we have in the works are more the progressive flavor. I agree that it could use some tightening up. But please keep in mind that these were basically recorded each of us one at a time playing the entire song then being mixed together. The drums were added after the fact.

 

Also, per some of the previous discussion, we tested last night using one of our higher end mics on the rhythm guitarist's cab and man what a difference! When switching back and forth from line in to mic the difference was astounding. Needless to say my guitarist was saying screw the stereo effects!

 

So expect everything new to be recorded using mics. We'll also put more effort into the production since our next round of recording will be aimed at release.

 

The only place I didn't see an improvement with the mics was on my bass. It was like no matter what we did it overdrove the mic and sounded way too boomy. The line in sounded much cleaner and defined. So we're going mics on the guitars and line in on the bass.