Mic'ing an amp - alternatives to short stand?

[Boots DeVille]

I'm searching for a way to mic my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I was wondering if there are any alternatives to a standard short boom stand.

 

I usually put the Deluxe on an amp stand, and I was wondering if there are any products that attach to an amp stand and have a gooseneck or something to position the mic on the speaker.

 

A quick internet search didn't turn up much, so I thought I'd ask here.

 

thanks!

[Dr. Ellwood]

Sure hang a SM57's cable around the handle of your combo amp and let the mike hang down onto the speaker grille near the outer rim of one of the speakers and that's it. Or use a standard boom mike stand and lower and textend it and position it at the cabs grille cloth. I have miked amps this way for years and in the end there is no different in the results it still sounds the same comming out of the PA.

[J. Robert Rennix]

Check the American Musical Supply (AMS) website. They sell a threaded flange which you can attach to your amp using screws. The flange will accept a standard microphone goose neck so you put the mic anywhere on the cabinet. Ellwood's mic cable trick works pretty well too. I used to do that with Shure 58's. I'm surprised it works well with the Shure 57, but I'm willing to trust Ellwood on this matter. Electro-voice also sells a cheap side-address dynamic mic designed specifically for this application (i.e. hanging a mic from a guitar amp). Lots of options here.

[Hairfarmer]

I use boom stands also. I use two of them on my half-stack. Just ask if you're curious as to why I use two.

 

For my VS232, which like you, I use on a amp stand, I use drum clamps to hold the mic in the position that I prefer over the speaker . I use a Pearl clamp that I...borrwed(ahem)...from my son.

Works beautifully. It clamps to the portion of the amp stand base that protudes out past the base of the amp, which so happens to be positioned beneath each speaker in my combo.

 

Here's a link for a similar clamp. Good luck.

 

http://www.podcastingnews.com/items/Audix/AUDDVICE.htm

[Billster]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Sure hang a SM57's cable around the handle of your combo amp and let the mike hang down onto the speaker grille ...

That's kind of a bar-room classic, but you sacrifice some control. Sennheiser makes a side-address dynamic microphone that at least puts your speaker on axis to the mic capsule in the "cable over" set up.

 

This item is for broadcast desks with a swing arm to mount the mic, and a C-clamp on the other end. No telling what kind of rumble you would transmit to the mic via attaching the clamp to your stand or amp.

 

Here\'s another little boom that really seems designed for drum miking - it dosen't have an "elbow", so you may have trouble achieving good position on an amp.

 

Here\'s one for hanging on a keyboard stand and getting a mic in front of the player\'s face. This looks most promising.

 

Here\'s a C-clamp mount with a smaller arm (no elbow)

 

Here\'s a mounting flange you could screw into the amp cabinet

[Scott Fraser]

<< Ellwood's mic cable trick works pretty well too. I used to do that with Shure 58's. I'm surprised it works well with the Shure 57, but I'm willing to trust Ellwood on this matter. >>

 

Well, you know, an SM58 is basically an SM57 with ball windscreen around the capsule, so they sound pretty similar in most applications. In fact I prefer the 57 for everything where 58's are commonly used, such as vocals.

 

Scott Fraser

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

... an SM58 is basically an SM57 with ball windscreen around the capsule, so they sound pretty similar ....[/QB]

Though the premise is correct... a 58 and a 57 are the same capsule, I find that they sound nothing alike.

 

One company designed speaker cabs with a 57 capsule mounted behind the grille in front of the speaker. XLR output jack on the cabinet. Cool idea that never caught on, but would be a worthwhile $100 or $125 option to any speaker cabinet, in my opinion.

 

Hanging a mic so that the capsule faces the gound and the sound enters from the side is okay I guess, but would not be my choice. And I really want a little air between the mic face and the grille cloth.

 

Several years ago I designed a piece of flat metal stock that fit through the amp handle and bent down over the cabinet for support, then jutted out far enough to hold a mic at the correct distance from the cabinet face. I mounted a mic flange on it, and thought that I had solved world hunger. But I got too much cabinet resonance through the mic that way. A shock mount sorta cured the problem, but then it was kinda bulky and ugly.

 

I've seen guys screw the flange directly to their amp faces, and using either goosenecks (bad idea) or various Atlas plumbing parts (better, but costly)work out a rig that got the mic in the right orientation.

 

 

Okay, we can get real tweaky. But in reality, we should follow the KISS principle in all things. Yeah, it is cool and sexy to put a lot of thought and maybe even money into solving a problem. But Atlas solved the problem for us 80 years ago, and NOTHING works out better than a mic stand, because in the topsy-turvy world of rock and roll, shit breaks and shit goes missing, and 20 minutes before showtime is no time to find out that the latest invention is broken or missing and we have no solution. A boom stand is perfect, and they are cheap and plentiful. My amos are always on stands, because I don't hear so well from those ears in my knees, I have to use the ones in my head. Over the years I have tried just about everything, and I keep going back to either a short stand with a boom, or a regular boom stand to solve the problem.

 

By the way, I like the idea of the shock mount. Takes away a lot of stage rumble from club rooms and helps the FOH guy out.

 

Bill

[Scott Fraser]

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They certainly sound different, but they're also very obviously from the same family.

 

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While I would generally never choose to address a mic from 90 degrees off axis, I suspect that hanging against the grille is sufficiently close to the cone that it constitutes being in the pressure zone for all useful guitar-generated frequencies, rendering directionality rather unimportant. Still, I'd want some distance, but I think we're talking quick & dirty club setups here.

 

Scott Fraser

[fantasticsound]

First, the Z-bar http://www.performanceaudio.com/images/products/0248/005469_1.jpg (about $20) has been commonly used on concert stages for many years.

 

Originally posted by Scott Fraser:

...While I would generally never choose to address a mic from 90 degrees off axis, I suspect that hanging against the grille is sufficiently close to the cone that it constitutes being in the pressure zone for all useful guitar-generated frequencies, rendering directionality rather unimportant...

While I can live with and actually deliberately use microphones 90º off axis from time to time, this statement would seem to say the timbre at 90º of such a 57 is virtually indistinguishable from on axis at the small distance from the amp. Nothing could be further from the truth, Scott.

 

In addition to reduced sensitivity, if you look at polar patterns for directional mics at different frequencies you'll see quite a variety of patterns, as opposed to the need cardioid or supercardioid patterns shown on most advertising. In fact, at some frequencies your mic will be virtually omnidirectional.

 

From a practical standpoint, as a sound engineer for over 15 years and a musician using mics for almost well over 20 years I can tell you the sound of an SM57 hung over an amp is nothing like that of the same '57 on a stand in the identical position, with the exception of being on axis.

 

That said, if one knows how to deal with reflections off the floor causing bleed from other instruments or amps it can be a useful technique, when necessary.

[Scott Fraser]

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In addition to reduced sensitivity, if you look at polar patterns for directional mics at different frequencies you'll see quite a variety of patterns, as opposed to the need cardioid or supercardioid patterns shown on most advertising. In fact, at some frequencies your mic will be virtually omnidirectional. >>

 

What I'm saying is that this might be close enough to the cone to be in the pressure zone. You know how a PZM works, where the placement of the capsule next to a boundary renders directionality (and phase) meaningless? That's what I'm referring to, so the directivity of the mic becomes a non-issue when in the pressure zone. Now I said "might" because I don't know if if we're really talking enough distance here or not. But it seems feasible to me that a wave front at that proximity could cause equal amplitude compression or rarifaction simultaneously at the side & front of the diaphragm, thus the mic becomes omni for all intents & purposes, like a PZM. Like I said, I'm speculating, but I see it as a plausible explanation for why a mic which normally sounds like crap 90 degrees off axis could sound OK when off axis right up on the cone like this.

 

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I'll defer to your experience on this because I would never mic a cabinet with an SM57, nor off axis. I'm just trying to find a plausible explanation why it might sound acceptable to use what is a more or less deliberately incorrect mic technique.

And I've been a professional recording & live sound engineer for the last 35 years, so I'm also not coming to this from a standpoint of ignorance.

 

Scott Fraser

[fantasticsound]

PZM's don't work the way you think they do. They are cardioid microphones in close proximity and on axis towards the boundary. And the method of directionality is different than the phase cancellation used in single diaphragm, dynamic mics.

 

An SM57, on axis at 1 inch from a sound source will not sound anything like the same SM57 at 90º off axis at 1 inch. I know this very well as I've dealt with it on a number of occasions where said SM57 could not function on a particular amp, off axis, and had to be mic'd in another way despite the lack of a proper mic stand.

 

It's plausable to use this "wrong" method for one simple reason. It provides, in essence, a different mic. If it sounds ok and you can control outside bleed from other instruments and monitors then you're golden, regardless of whether it's text book right or wrong.

 

The deliberate use I referred to previously (other than guitar amps mic'd this way because I lacked an appropriate stand for the SM57) was a Sennheiser MD421 I used on Rod McGaha's trumpet last year.

 

He's a fabulous horn player and pulled out an old, gorgeous patina's horn that had obviously been well worn. I was confident he wouldn't be blasting out brassy, shrill trumpet sounds and I didn't want the mic to accentuate those frequencies either. So I put the MD421 up as though it were an SM57 or SM58, with Rod playing into the end. You probably already know the 421 is a side address mic, so he was playing 90º off axis. It worked like a charm. The off axis sound (which I assumed would be mellower than on axis) was a perfect complement to his horn. Thanks to his 6'6" (?) height, lack of much monitor (It was a 3 piece jazz on a big, outdoor stage) and the angle of mic, bleed was kept to a minimum.

 

But all those outside environment related issues had to be right for this to work. Most guys throwing 57's over the side of their amp don't have the knowledge to know what to do to diagnose and clear up these issues when possible. That's primarily why I suggest they stick to more standard use of the 57 when possible.

[Scott Fraser]

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You must be thinking of the MD409.

 

Scott Fraser