How on earth can we gloss over sending 19 year old girls to Iraq?

[Tedly Nightshade]

How come I haven't heard anyone say that? From the Times of London, a responsible report on what really went down with Private Jessica- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-648517,00.html "THE rescue of Private Jessica Lynch, which inspired America during one of the most difficult periods of the war, was not the heroic Hollywood story told by the US military, but a staged operation that terrified patients and victimised the doctors who had struggled to save her life, according to Iraqi witnesses. Doctors at al-Nasiriyah general hospital said that the airborne assault had met no resistance and was carried out a day after all the Iraqi forces and Baath leadership had fled the city. Four doctors and two patients, one of whom was paralysed and on an intravenous drip, were bound and handcuffed as American soldiers rampaged through the wards, searching for departed members of the Saddam regime. An ambulance driver who tried to carry Private Lynch to the American forces close to the city was shot at by US troops the day before their mission. Far from winning hearts and minds, the US operation has angered and hurt doctors who risked their lives treating both Private Lynch and Iraqi victims of the war. “What the Americans say is like the story of Sinbad the Sailor — it’s a myth,” said Harith al-Houssona, who saved Private Lynch’s life after she was brought to the hospital by Iraqi military intelligence. “They said that there was no medical care in Iraq, and that there was a very strong defence of this hospital. But there was no one here apart from doctors and patients, and there was nobody to fire at them.” Dr Harith was on duty when Private Lynch was brought to al-Nasiriyah general by Iraqi soldiers a few days after her capture on March 23. She was a member of a 15-member US Army maintenance company convoy that was ambushed after taking a wrong turn near the city. At the time, she was suffering from a head injury, a broken leg and arm, a bullet wound to her leg, a pulmonary oedema and her breathing was failing. In a hospital inundated with war casualties with few drugs, her condition was stabilised and she regained consciousness. “She was very frightened when she woke up,” Dr Harith, 24, a junior resident at the hospital, said. “She kept saying: ‘Please don’t hurt me, don’t touch me.’ I told her that she was safe, she was in a hospital and that I was a doctor, and I never hurt a patient.” Dr Harith went outside the hospital during the bombing to get supplies of Private Lynch’s favourite drink, orange juice, and struggled to persuade her to eat. The Iraqi intelligence officers told the hospital that Private Lynch would soon be transferred to Baghdad, a prospect that terrified her. After her condition stabilised, they ordered Dr Harith to transfer Jessica to another hospital. Instead he told the ambulance driver to deliver her to one of the American outposts that had already been established on the ouskirts of the city. “But when he reached their checkpoint, the Americans fired at him,” he said. On April 1 the local Baathists fled al-Nasiriyah for Baghdad and arrived at the hospital looking for their prize captive. Dr Harith moved her to another part of the hospital, and other doctors told the soldiers that he was away. “They said that they thought Jessica had died, and they didn’t know where she was,” he said. In their haste and confusion the soldiers left, leaving behind only a few critically injured soldiers. The American “rescue” operation came on the night of April 2. The hospital was bombarded and soldiers arrived in helicopters and, according to the hospital doctors, in tanks that pulled up outside the hospital. Today, the hospital struggles on without adequate supplies of drugs and without running water or mains electricity."

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

[quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]How come I haven't heard anyone say that?[/b][/quote]Because there's nothing wrong with it (other than the fact that it generally sucks). The day that we decided that both men and women could both serve in combat situations, we accepted the responsibility of a Jessica Lynch situation. The average age of the footsoldier killed in Vietnam...[i]average age[/i]...was 19. Are you upset because it was woman in this case? Because there's nothing new about 19 year olds getting captured, injured and killed in battle. And I believe this post belongs in the Iraq thread. Perhaps you should stick to that area for Iraq posts, eh? - Jeff

[doug osborne]

Black or white, immigrant or US born, poor or less poor, and yes, male or female, soldiers are sent to slaughter by fat, rich, powerful white men. This is a volunteer army, yet if you read up on Lynch's background, and her hometown's economic situation, you can see why she felt the Army was her best way out of a bad situation. This is a great example of why it is a primary responsibility of us as citizens to question why our leaders choose to use our awesome military. This is not just guns, tanks, and smart bombs, this is our sons and daughters, this is us.

[Tedly Nightshade]

I'm not thrilled about sending any kids to war, but I think the idea of sending girls would set off some alarms in the public mind- I'm sure they've been set off, but I just thought it strange that nobody has even said anything that I've heard to that effect. My mother did say, before the big rescue brouhaha (I'm glad she got home alive, but how crass to use it as such a propaganda piece), that she was sure she'd been raped 100 times already. It doesn't appear that she was raped at all, but who really knows... Men can be sexually tortured too, and are, but there must be something particularly horrible about being held prisoner and raped and waiting for a very much unwanted pregnancy to take over your body. Not that this isn't happening all over the world right at the moment, and here in the states. Someone said WW I was a war waged on young men by old men. I guess we've expanded that a bit. I do wonder though, if the presence of women in the ranks would have done anything to limit the brutal rapes that have been so common in so many wars... probably wishful thinking, the presence of women certainly doesn't stop the rapists in all the American homes where that is taking place today and tonight.

[deanmass]

Man,that sure sucks, but, she volunteered to be in the military. I do not think it should set off any more alarms than us being there militarily in the first place. Israeili women have been REQUIRED to serve for as long as (?). The reality is, most women are more vulnerable after capture to rape than most men,but men can still be abused and raped. War is war. I am sure this gal will say that going in, she knew the risks. BTW, she is a 19 year old woman,not a girl. She is no more a girl than a 19 year old man is a boy, and I am betting that on average, a 19 year old woman is more mentally mature than a 19 year old man.

[Tedly Nightshade]

I'm hoping one slowly dawning alarm might lead to another... that the realization of our 19 year old wymyn at risk will lead to the realization of the civilian reality there... I'm always looking for a chink in the armor of denial.

[zenfreud]

It IS horrifying to think of your sister or brother or neighbor going through what that girl must have gone through. We need more of these kinds of discussions BEFORE we allow our elected officials to send our youth overseas to kill and be killed. What really angers me are the slick ad campaigns the military uses to get young folks to sign up. Perhaps if a greater portion our tax dollars were used on education and creating jobs, fewer 19 year olds would be 'choosing' the military. As a musician and an artist, I feel this is an ideal place for topics that affect all our lives. If this forum is really just a place for product announcements, I've lost interest.

[Brittanylips]

You may think there's no reason for sending anyone to Iraq, but I don't see why it's worse to send women than men. If the conflict isn't worth killing and maiming women, it isn't worth killing and maiming men. -PLB

[Charlie-brm]

[quote]Originally posted by Brittanylips: [b]You may think there's no reason for sending anyone to Iraq, but I don't see why it's worse to send women than men. If the conflict isn't worth killing and maiming women, it isn't worth killing and maiming men. -PLB[/b][/quote]Best advice yet.

[aeon]

[quote][i]Ted Nightshade said:[/i] [b]I'm not thrilled about sending any kids to war, but I think the idea of sending girls would set off some alarms in the public mind- I'm sure they've been set off, but I just thought it strange that nobody has even said anything that I've heard to that effect.[/b][/quote]I guess the public is (in general) just not that sexist or ageist. And 19-year-olds are not kids, at least under the rule of law. No girls were sent to war. Some women volunteered and went though.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Volunteering under that kind of financial pressure is not as voluntary as one would hope. Law or not, the vast majority of 19 olds of all genders have a lot of growing to do yet. Most of the ones I know are not far from children. Woman/girl is just semantics. Our society lacks any rite of passage beyond getting a driver's license. Chronology is not maturity. Old enough to give birth, old enough to kill- there may be something to that...

[Tedly Nightshade]

But the real point of the topic, and the point of the article which nobody has mentioned (yeah, it's kinda long, I'd skim it at best myself)- The US forces could have knocked on the door, said please, and received the patient with a lot less trauma. Or better yet, the US forces could have looked into the ambulance that approached them the day before with Pvt. Lynch on board, instead of shooting at it and nearly killing her themselves. But there's nothing like a good rescue story. It really beats an "Iraqi doctor saves American soldier's life" story, from a propaganda perspective.

[deanmass]

[quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]But the real point of the topic, and the point of the article which nobody has mentioned (yeah, it's kinda long, I'd skim it at best myself)- The US forces could have knocked on the door, said please, and received the patient with a lot less trauma. Or better yet, the US forces could have looked into the ambulance that approached them the day before with Pvt. Lynch on board, instead of shooting at it and nearly killing her themselves. But there's nothing like a good rescue story. It really beats an "Iraqi doctor saves American soldier's life" story, from a propaganda perspective.[/b][/quote]You are right about that... Honestly, I think it sucks for any one to have to fight, but I cannot feel sorry for soldiers. I can only wish them success and safety. I saw a very cool ad in PopMechanics today. It said 'Kick Ass, Stay Safe and Get Home Quick"..from your friends at Popular Mechanics.. Nuff said....

[Blue Strat]

[quote] The US forces could have knocked on the door, said please, and received the patient with a lot less trauma. Or better yet, the US forces could have looked into the ambulance that approached them the day before with Pvt. Lynch on board, instead of shooting at it and nearly killing her themselves. [/quote]Was April 1st before or after the suicide bombing that killed 4 American soldiers at that check-point? IIRC, it was after, and the soldiers had clear orders to not allow unidentified (i.e., non-coalition) vehicles to approach them, and therefore were justified in firing on the ambulance. Also, I'm sure that neither you or I have knowledge of what the special OPs team that "rescued" Jessica Lynch knew at the time that the mission occured. It's easy to complain about the effects of an event, after all of the facts are in. It's a whole other matter to take the information at hand and do what you feel is necessary.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Definitely the suicide bombers complicate the situation in the worst way. The point is the propaganda machine- they had a photo op and ran with it, and ran with it, and ran with it. Nothing like a pretty face in front of a flag, and no you won't see any "after" pictures. I can't believe how many people credit all this- but then again, I can't believe how many people watch as much TV as they do. It's amazing, many actually consider it a serious civic duty to do so.

[Blue Strat]

Of course it's propaganda! :rolleyes: WHat do you think of the Iraqi information minister on TV everyday saying that the Americans were being slaughtered and that they weren't even in Baghdad? Those were bald-faced lies told to the Iraqi's and the rest of the Arab world. There is at least a good deal of truth to what is told about the rescue of Jessica Lynch.

[Super 8]

[quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]Volunteering under that kind of financial pressure is not as voluntary as one would hope. [/b][/quote]People make choices, Ted. They live by those choices. Nobody 'forced' her, or applied "financial pressure" on her to get her to join the military. She CHOSE of her own freewill to join. [quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]Law or not, the vast majority of 19 olds of all genders have a lot of growing to do yet. Most of the ones I know are not far from children.[/quote][/b] Not really. They act like children because they are allowed to act like children. Teen years are constantly expanding and being made more prominent by the venders who profit from catering to teen culture. You go back 100 or 200 years, and there was no teenager culture. You were born, you learned and grew enough until you were able to start helping out, you were an adult by the time you were 15 or 16 and probably getting married and starting a family of your own. Due to our constant demand for more and more education, children are expected -even demanded- to remain children for longer periods of time. Many people don't stop being kids until they're 23 years old! Teen culture is what happens when you're no longer a child, but the adults don't accept you yet. You band together and form your own thing, and there it is; the 'teenagers' a group of people who act like children but look like adults. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [QB]Woman/girl is just semantics. Our society lacks any rite of passage beyond getting a driver's license. Chronology is not maturity.[QUOTE][QB] I disagree. Our society does not lack rites of passage -in fact we have many... None the least of which include getting diplomas, getting a job, getting married. But you are right that age and maturity are not always related -it's more of a general rule.

[Zweite Version]

What strikes me most is the fact that you cannot buy a beer under the age of 21, yet are considered mature enough to fight and die in a war. :freak:

[Super 8]

The legal drinking age is decided at the state level. It has nothing to do with the age of enlistment to the armed services. In Wisconsin it used to be that you could drink at 18. Trust me, I remember -but it's a little blurry. I live just minutes from the border. I don't know if other states have different ages. I know there was a push nationwide to get it bumped up to 21 -but it wasn't a requirement. Where my wife went to college, you could drink at 18 around campus -maybe you needed a student ID, I don't know.

[Zweite Version]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]The legal drinking age is decided at the state level. It has nothing to do with the age of enlistment to the armed services. In Wisconsin it used to be that you could drink at 18. Trust me, I remember -but it's a little blurry. I live just minutes from the border. I don't know if other states have different ages. I know there was a push nationwide to get it bumped up to 21 -but it wasn't a requirement. Where my wife went to college, you could drink at 18 around campus -maybe you needed a student ID, I don't know.[/b][/quote]18? I never saw that anywhere in the states yet. Not that I have a problem with it, but it's weird getting carded for everything for someone who is used to a 16y drinking age (for beer and wine, 18 for liquor). But I guess in I few years I'll be glad to be carded, that means I still look young :) Drinking age vs. enlistment age? Hey, that makes my Stones song quote at the bottom finally relevant (sort of) :p

[Rikia]

[quote]Originally posted by deanmass: [QB BTW, she is a 19 year old woman,not a girl. She is no more a girl than a 19 year old man is a boy, and I am betting that on average, a 19 year old woman is more mentally mature than a 19 year old man.[/QB][/quote]This is interesting!!!!!

[Gato]

[b]How on earth can we gloss over sending 19 year old girls to Iraq? [/b] Maybe they want them to get married with some oil bussines man from Irak. You never know money is money wherever you are, and Irak has the most important oil reserve.

[Tedly Nightshade]

Obviously the reason that teenagers are the preferred soldiers is that they make better cannon-fodder. They are physically durable and resilient, heal quickly, and are impressionable. All they are supposed to do is shut up and do what they are told, consciences or wisdom are merely impediments to the larger project. And women are survivors so many times when men are not. Carry on the species, you know.

[Henchman]

You know what's funny? When I talk to my Dad, he always point sout that the US has some of the lowest taxes anywhere. Unfortunatly, you pay for that by having a shitty education and healthcare system system. So what do those do who want an education, but can't afford it? They join the army, because they have no options. That's why 19 year olds have to go to war. Simple as that. So if you have a problem with that, think about it next time you vote in a president based on tax cuts, instead of education and healthcare.

[GZsound]

Once again, rather than make an incident another anti America, anti fat rich white man topic, could we have a tiny little bit of common sense here? If a 19 year old female wants to join the fire department, passes all the tests, goes to a fire and gets killed, do you all blame America for allowing 19 year old females to join the fire department? Do you blame fat white rich men for sending her to her death? Do any of you think 19 year old women are so stupid they don't know that joining the military means they may be in a war zone? Do any of you think the women pilots that fly combat aircraft and helicopters are not prepared to go into battle? How insulting to take away free will and intelligence from women of all ages. The military is a viable option for many of our young people. Training, discipline, education and an opportunity to serve your country are honorable goals. How is it that the liberal community can support the right of a woman of practically any age to get an abortion on demand and never questions her ability to make that decision, but if she joins the military she suddenly has no brain or free will? She is sent to die by rich fat white men? If I was a female, I would be totally offended by the attempt to take away my intelligence, motives, and free will with political rhetoric. Only 19 year old guys are intelligent? I suggest picking another subject to use as a means to bash all things American. There certainly are a lot available that actually make sense...but not this.

[aeon]

Congrats, GZsound...you successfully used “America,” “white man,” “blame.” “women,” “stupid,” “liberal,” “abortion,” “free will,” “rhetoric” and “bash” in a post. :rolleyes:

[fantasticsound]

[quote]Originally posted by Super 8: [b]The legal drinking age is decided at the state level. It has nothing to do with the age of enlistment to the armed services. In Wisconsin it used to be that you could drink at 18. Trust me, I remember -but it's a little blurry. I live just minutes from the border...[/b][/quote]Man, it hasn't been 18 since before 1986. I grandfathered-in for both Iowa (Where I attended college, freshman year.) and Wisconsin. (We were 1/2 hour from the border, off I-94.)

[Nawor]

Now, now! We must ensure the story is not 'tarnished' with facts! :eek: After all bums on seats is where it's at!!... [url=http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/106/editorials/Hollywood_s_invasion+.shtml]Telemovie[/url] ;)

[Henchman]

[quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b] If a 19 year old female wants to join the fire department, passes all the tests, goes to a fire and gets killed, do you all blame America for allowing 19 year old females to join the fire department? Do you blame fat white rich men for sending her to her death? Do any of you think 19 year old women are so stupid they don't know that joining the military means they may be in a war zone? Do any of you think the women pilots that fly combat aircraft and helicopters are not prepared to go into battle? How insulting to take away free will and intelligence from women of all ages. The military is a viable option for many of our young people. Training, discipline, education and an opportunity to serve your country are honorable goals. [/b][/quote]man, you really are an idiot aren't you. For one, I am an American, asswipe. Second, it's pathetic that for alot of people in the US it's their ONLY option to get an education. I'm sure there are numerous people that sign up for that reason alone. Ask NYCDrew about the person he knows who's son died in this war. He was one of those who's only option for an education was to join the military. BTW, I support the troops in Iraq, and I'm glad they're over there and have gotten rid of Saddam and his regime. What I don't support is Bush and his big business love affair, and wouldn't vote for him if he was running against a chimpansee.

[alphajerk]

[quote]Originally posted by Ted Nightshade: [b]I'm not thrilled about sending any kids to war, but I think the idea of sending girls would set off some alarms in the public mind- .[/b][/quote]hell no... women want to be treated EQUALLY. and SHOULD be, they should also have to register for selective service just like MEN when they turn 18.