Home Recordists:

[Pappy P]

Both Bill's are great.

 

What a powerhouse of knowledge we have here.

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by Billster:

I kind of disagree with that, but it all good, that's why music is so cool. I don't think you can determine the vocal level before you have a soundscape to place it in. .

Here is my thinking on this, and the genesis to my approach...

 

If I'm mixing Paul McCarnetyjaggercrospbynashstreisand, I'm committed to making the end result sound like Mr McCarnetyjaggercrospbynashstreisand. So I build the basic vocal first, with the existing tracks laying underneath at about half level as a 'bed' from which to make mixing decisions about that vocal. Once I have made a true representation of the signature sound of the artist, I fill in the rest for support. It is much harder for me to -imagine- what I need to leave out or pump up on the backing tracks to leave space for the lead vocal (as you suggest) rather than just to put the vocal in place and fill in the blanks.

 

As you say, it si all good.... I often mention Eddie Krammer, who mixes whiloe recording and basically sets the board levels all at zero for the mixdown. I can't do that, but I admire those who can. I just got off of the phone with a buddy who has recently opened his first larger facility. He is at the stage of running three bass tracks and four guitar tracks and all of the rest of it, as he loves the flexibility of not having to make a decision until later. As I told him, once he gets more familiar with his space he will start to self edit, and know what will sound best on the recording based upon his experience,a nd save himself a lot of time. I save time by starting with the critical element of the song (in the case of this discussion, the lead vocal) and work from there.

 

Oh, I've mentioned this before, but mixing at a consistent level is critical,a nd many of the top mastering engineers are using stepped attenuators to achieve this repeatability. You can read about it at Bob Katz's website digidoo.com. A lot of us work from the AES RP200 standard. Personally, I find this too loud for critical listening for long periods of time, but I always check at that level. The ear fatiques, and mixers who spend long periods of time listening to music should watch out for their hearing. I also find that I hear more details when I listen very softly, so I'll also drop the level to something above a whisper, just to see what jumos out at me.

 

Bill

[Billster]

Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:

Here is my thinking on this, and the genesis to my approach...

 

If I'm mixing Paul McCarnetyjaggercrospbynashstreisand, I'm committed to making the end result sound like Mr McCarnetyjaggercrospbynashstreisand. So I build the basic vocal first, with the existing tracks laying underneath at about half level as a 'bed' from which to make mixing decisions about that vocal. Once I have made a true representation of the signature sound of the artist, I fill in the rest for support. It is much harder for me to -imagine- what I need to leave out or pump up on the backing tracks to leave space for the lead vocal (as you suggest) rather than just to put the vocal in place and fill in the blanks.

I think that addresses what I mean by "being familiar with the lead" If I went that route, I would construct the tonality of the vocal, but as far as absolute level with the fader, after I determine the vocal eq and ambience, I would mute the fader while I built the instrumental mix. I don't find it practical to have the focal element cast in stone (level wise) before dealing with summing issues, particularly in a dense arrangement.

 

Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:

As you say, it si all good.

 

...Bill

[Griffinator]

Bill and Bill on Home Recording

 

Yeah, I'd probably pick up a copy of that...

 

One thing I got to find out the hard way:

 

It's a lot easier to mix with programmed "drum tracks" than it is to get a good capture of a live drummer and mix off that...

 

So, if you're just getting your feet wet, best bet is to get some kind of drum synth for your computer (Fruityloops, Reason, et al)

[miroslav]

I make most of the mixing decisions BEFORE I ever actually mix.

Most times...I have 85% of the mix working when I'm done editingand I can just step back without touching the faders...and it sounds pretty darn good and balanced.

Then I'll fine tune when I actually mix.

 

In tracking

I start with drums and then bass (against a scratch guitar/key and vocal).

I then spend the most time on getting the guitars and keyboards balanced and panned correctly, as I find that they are the instruments that will fight with the vocals the most.

Then I record the final vocal against all those other tracks.

 

Then for editing...I again start with the drums and bass.

And then once again I spend the most time on the guitars and keyboards.

After that I finish with any leads and the vocals...usually bouncing back and forth to make sure everything sits well together.

 

After that...the mix process is just about playing around with EQ and compression and level on all the individual tracks to get them to really fuse together the right way.

Butif the tracking and editing is on the money....the mix is not that much work....

[BillWelcome Home Studios]

Originally posted by miroslav:

I make most of the mixing decisions BEFORE I ever actually mix.....

Preproduction... a lost art. Ain't it nice to know what you are going to try to do -before- you set out to do it?

 

Bill

[miroslav]

Well...I don't have it ALL 100% mapped out beforehand...

...but I usually have a pretty clear picture of where I want to take the song as soon as I start tracking.

And when working on my songs...I'm doing most of the parts/instruments...and those that Im not doing...I know how they should generally go...since I'm already hearing the whole song in my head.

 

Of course...as each song starts to come to life...there are always those unexpected twists and turns the show up as different parts/instruments overlap...and it is THERE that I find most of the "nuggets"...the interesting things that I did not plan on, but that I will immediately try to develop as I go along.

 

I've found that in most cases...even when I do minimal pre-production...I can just move along and almost certainly at some point...the "nuggets" will emerge...sometimes sooner...sometimes later.

Once I get there...after that...the song is on auto-pilot...and I'm just working it towards an obvious conclusion...which is why it's often 85% mixed by the time I'm done editing in the DAW.

At that point...all I'm doing is fine-tuning...there's no mystery any more...

...the song is pretty much done, in my head...I just need to follow it through to it's inevitable conclusion.

 

I never have 50 spare/alternate tracks to pick from when I get ready to mix.

Ive already done all my decision-makingits not a try this, try that guessing game when its time to mix.

[Warthog]

Originally posted by ellwood:

Bill if you wrote a book, I would borrow it from Pappy and photocopy it!! A very nice post!!!

That's awesome. Thanks for the laugh.

[Dr. Ellwood]

Originally posted by Warthog:

Originally posted by ellwood:

Bill if you wrote a book, I would borrow it from Pappy and photocopy it!! A very nice post!!!

That's awesome. Thanks for the laugh.

[miroslav]

I don't know if he's written a formal "book"...

...but Bill has written formal articles on audio topics...ProRec....

[skipclone 1]

There are some really good drum sources out there. For my own projects I`ve been less happy with things that are supposed to simulate basses. I often play bass lines myself on a keyboard but

it always ends up sounding like a compromise, unless it`s something made for dancing. I recently went and hired a bass player, the results are immediately obviously better-`I Can Believe` and New Step` on the soundclick site. I would try not to cut corners there if possible.

[miroslav]

Skip...

 

Why don't you just play the bass lines on a bass guitar...instead of a keyboard?

 

You're a guitar player....so I would think the transition should not be too complicated, especially if you know the bas lines you want.

 

That's what I do...I play all the bass lines on a real bass...either my Ibanez Blazer w/flat-wounds...or my Epi Thunderbird w/round-wounds.

 

I'm not a virtuoso...but it's not that complicated doing bass lines for Rock/Pop music...IMO.

Even my drummer says my base lines are pretty good. I just focus on the poked instead of trying to over play it.

It took me awhile to get use to playing with my fingers, and for awhile I used a felt or rubber pick (which I still do if I want a lot of "pluck").

Also...with the extra long neck...I can only play for a few takes...as it does put a strain on my left hand (since I don't play bass all the time).

[Justus A. Picker]

I had some trouble getting decent bass lines recorded at first. Despite knowing that I was playing in time, on the beat, the recorded tracks showed I was consistently playing slightly behind the beat. Seems bass notes just don't jump off the fretboard as fast as the notes on a guitar. Changing my attack and using a lot more muting than I normally would pulled things back into line. Now laying down bass tracks is almost as much fun as playing guitar.

[skipclone 1]

Well the piano was my first musical instrument, the learning curve is relatively painless. I keep thinking I should buy a bass sometime but even my experience on a full drum kit exceeds that on a bass.

[strangedogs]

Originally posted by Justus A. Picker:

I had some trouble getting decent bass lines recorded at first. Despite knowing that I was playing in time, on the beat, the recorded tracks showed I was consistently playing slightly behind the beat. Seems bass notes just don't jump off the fretboard as fast as the notes on a guitar. Changing my attack and using a lot more muting than I normally would pulled things back into line. Now laying down bass tracks is almost as much fun as playing guitar.

I had wondered about this issue - I can't seem to get the Bass Lines to really be in time... I'll have to try again - I'm just using my guitar and an Octaver thingie in Amplitube to get a "low sounding" sound... the last stuff I used my keyboard as the Bass like the Doors used to do.