Rode NTK: Audio examples?

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I've read in these forums about how great the Rode NTK sounds, and how it compares favorably with a U87 (even though the U87 isn't a tube mic). I haven't been able to test out the NTK myself, as I'm not aware of a local music store which carries Rode products, so... If anyone out there is using a NTK, either for vocals, acoustic guitar, or for drum overheads, could you place a link to a mp3 which uses the mic? Please mention what mic pre you used, as well as any other things in the signal chain which might affect the sound. (Disclaimer: I'm aware that an mp3 doesn't have the sound quality to *truly* judge the sound of the mic, and that there are *a lot* of variables which affect the sound like the mic pre, etc... I'm just trying to get a feel if this is a mic I should look into or not.) If anyone knows of a NTK/U87 audio comparison somewhere on the net, that would be great, too. Thanks in advance... This message has been edited by popmusic on 07-31-2001 at 12:57 PM

[Bonafide]

Hey Pop, I don't have any MP3's to direct you to but I got stuff on CD and would be willing to send it to you. Do not hesitate to purchase the NTK. I can't say enough about it. Absolutely amazing in my book. Get one now for the $550 (out the door) price. I have heard rumor that the price was doubling next year, it is certainly worth it and would still be a deal at $1000. In technical terms, The NTK is one bad-ass mofo for the $... Cheers.

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[quote]Originally posted by Bonafide: [b]I don't have any MP3's to direct you to but I got stuff on CD and would be willing to send it to you. [/b][/quote] If it's not too much trouble, I'd be interested in checking it out. Feel free to contact me offline at >address removed so I don't get excessive amounts of spam like I got at my last e-mail address<. Thanks, Bonafide! This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-01-2001 at 08:34 PM

[Sir Bob]

When you say the price is doubling next year, you wouldn't happen to be from Australia would you?

[m2]

Hi popmusic, you might want to check out BPM Music. Most places have a return policy, btw, so you could always check it out a bit, and if you no like, exchange it for something else, though I think you'll probably like. Macle

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A thread back from the dead! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I thought I'd give an update on what I've found, as well as perhaps elicit more opinions about vocal mics and preamps before I plunk down my cash. I finally found a nearby store which carries Rode products, and I had a chance to check it out this weekend. I burned a CD using my preamp (old Mackie 1202, *non* VLZ) and tested vocals and my acoustic on the NTK, U87, TLM 103, AT 4033, and my (best? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] ) condenser, AKG C535. When I got home, I cut up the examples on my DAW and did a lot of comparison listening on my (don't laugh -- I'm used to them) NS-10s. I'm going to try listening to the audio clips in different settings, like in the car, on computer speakers, on boomboxes, as part of a pseudo mix, etc... So my opinion might change the more I listen to the clips. Surprisingly, the U87 (which I had used years ago in local studios and remembered loving them) did not stack up all that well in comparison to the NTK. On vocals, there was kind of a honky upper midrange bump to the sound (almost like a -- dare I say it? -- SM57), and the bottom end did not seem very present. It's too late to check, but I'm thinking I might have had the low frequency roll off switch on (Doh! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif[/img] ). It's also possible the demo unit I tried might have been defective or had been bounced around... I don't remember the U87 sounding quite that nasal. In the U87's defense, I ran a comparison of a recording that has a U87 with an Amek preamp and compared that to the vocal I made with my lowly Mackie, and attributed the difference in sound to the preamp (which added a lot more "air" to the sound). So a good preamp is next on the wish list... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Also, the particular recording I listened to was done on analog tape, and I'm wondering if the "magical U87 sound" that I thought I had in my head was only because of the combination of that mic when it's on magnetic tape -- not the sound of the mic all by itself, recorded digitally. The NTK and TLM 103 were similar-sounding, but the NTK had a slight bit of extra "oomph" to the high end. Not sparkle, mind you, but a kind of vague power up in maybe the 10 kHz range. In blind listening tests, I would occasionally mix up the NTK and TLM, but I've come to the conclusion that, at least on my vocals, there's something very, very neutral about the TLM 103... Almost as if it's [i]nice[/i], but lacking in personality. The AT 4033 on vocals sounded pretty much like the recordings I had heard on the net which used a 4033... A very bright AKG C414-ish top end, but with an almost boomy, undefined lower end. The low end in particular reminded me of a dynamic EV mic I have (I don't remember the model #), and I don't mean that in a flattering way... I'd venture to say I thought the 4033 was good for the price, and certainly better than the cheapo condensers that have flooded the market in the past few years, but it really wasn't a sound that I dug on my vocals or acoustic. I recorded my AKG C535 in the same room as the other mics, just so I'd have a comparison to what's familiar... It's got a clear, almost "invisible" sound. There's a 2 dB rise between 7 and 12 kHz on the mic, and you can hear it. I like the way it sounds on acoustic guitar, but when you start multitracking vocals, there's a lot of crud that builds up on the top end. Sometimes the "crud" sounds nice, if you're going for an angelic/ethereal kind of sound (think George Michael's breathy vocals on the "Faith" album but not as extreme), but this mic lacks presence for vocals... The effect in a mix is that the vocals are "there but not really there". Lastly, there's the NTK. I really do like the way this particular mic sounds on my voice -- the low and high end are both really nice, but the high end is the part that pushes the mic into sounding truly "professional"-sounding... It doesn't "sizzle", it's not overbearing, but it's there and it's pleasant to listen to. I tried the NTK on my wife's voice and it turns out that she sounded excessively sibilant... For baritone male vocals (i.e. mine), I dig it, though. The biggest beef I have with the NTK is that there's no low frequency rolloff switch. Oh well, I can always EQ it before or after recording... I should note that I didn't buy the NTK, or any mic yet... I'm going to listen to the audio samples I made for the next few days under a variety of circumstances and make sure that my ears really are favoring the NTK and that it's not a sound I'll get tired of six months from now. So... I have two questions... 1) If the tube in the NTK goes, is it an easily-replaceable part? (My only exposure to tube mics up until now was the AKG C12, and I never owned it or had to fix anything with it...) 2) Can anyone recommend a reasonably-priced preamp that might sound great on an NTK? I'm considering building my own (there's a thread over in George's forum about building a preamp), but I'm open to buying one if it sounds great and it's not ridiculously expensive. I am planning to upgrade to a better, bigger console in the next year (I need more outs to the sound card to record drums), so I might wait until I upgrade my console and look for good preamps there. This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-13-2001 at 04:52 PM

[dondottcomm]

Have you looked at the Event EMP-1 pre? They are pretty cheap. I got one used 125.00 or so...I'm not saying that they are the greatest.. but they are pretty transparent {kind of a noncharacter pre}It may work well with a Rode ,its the same company..Have you tryed the Shure KSM 44 yet?Good luck in your search.. Don

[sign]

Popmusic, you say the NTK and TLM103 were similar sounding. There are many posts on these forums that say how good the sound of the NTK is. To read that it sounds similar to the TLM103 amazes me a bit, a couple of years ago at AES convention there was a possibility to compare the TLM103 to the M149 in the Neumann stand. (with Sennheiser HD580 headphones). To me it felt like comparing a Fiat Panda to a Bentley Continental [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I bought the M149 (which is very expensive) and lately I was thinking about getting a pair of NTK's, but if they sound like a TLM103 I have to look for something better. Any opinions please? Peace.

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[quote]Originally posted by dondottcomm: [b]Have you looked at the Event EMP-1 pre? They are pretty cheap. I got one used 125.00 or so...I'm not saying that they are the greatest.. but they are pretty transparent {kind of a noncharacter pre} [/b][/quote] No, I haven't tried it. Any idea how it might sound compared to the older Mackie pres? [quote]Originally posted by dondottcomm: [b]Have you tryed the Shure KSM 44 yet?[/b][/quote] No, but I've heard it on a number recordings on the net, and, while I don't doubt it's a good all-purpose mic, male vocals kind of sounded "hollowed out". Of course, it could've been the engineer that made the vocals sound that way, but I heard the same characteristic on a number of recordings by different engineers. This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-14-2001 at 07:00 AM

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[quote]Originally posted by sign: [b]I bought the M149 (which is very expensive) and lately I was thinking about getting a pair of NTK's, but if they sound like a TLM103 I have to look for something better. Any opinions please? [/b][/quote] Well, my impression so far is only based on an hour or so of listening... I don't know how qualified I would be to compare the NTKs to really expensive mics (the U87, the U89, and the C12 are probably the high-end mics I've had the most experience with, and, in the case of the U89 and C12, it's been years since I've heard them). Perhaps some of the other posters who have tried both could compare... I'm going to spend more time comparing the audio samples, so maybe my impression will change.

[mr. rob]

Anybody try the blue dragonfly or blueberry?? I've had them recommended to me as standout pieces for the money. Also what about the soundelux u195? Never tried any of these yet, am curious though. This message has been edited by mr. rob on 08-14-2001 at 12:29 AM

[dondottcomm]

The Event pre is more transparent that the older Mackies pres.IMO. It sounds as good and on some things better than my Digitech VMP-1 and that thing went for something like $1000.00 new ...got it used too for 250.00,I'm extreamly cheap..LOL. On the mic, ya its very subjective... Good luck..... Don

[AliAlexandre]

Thank you for such a detailed comprison. This is exactly what I needed when posting my message on G. Massenburg's and Nichol's forums. I actually happen to loose confidence in the advices of salespersons in stores due to the lack of consistency of their judgements from stores to stores (some may tell you to buy a model that what considered a garbage by the store next to them....) Reviews in magazines ? well, ... Please let us know the final results of your testing and the preamp you will choose. I personally have an Aphex 107 that is a good one for some people, and real crap for the others. I really don't know what to think about this product now...... Alex [quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]A thread back from the dead! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I thought I'd give an update on what I've found, as well as perhaps elicit more opinions about vocal mics and preamps before I plunk down my cash. I finally found a nearby store which carries Rode products, and I had a chance to check it out this weekend. I burned a CD using my preamp (old Mackie 1202, *non* VLZ) and tested vocals and my acoustic on the NTK, U87, TLM 103, AT 4033, and my (best? [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] ) condenser, AKG C535. When I got home, I cut up the examples on my DAW and did a lot of comparison listening on my (don't laugh -- I'm used to them) NS-10s. I'm going to try listening to the audio clips in different settings, like in the car, on computer speakers, on boomboxes, as part of a pseudo mix, etc... So my opinion might change the more I listen to the clips. Surprisingly, the U87 (which I had used years ago in local studios and remembered loving them) did not stack up all that well in comparison to the NTK. On vocals, there was kind of a honky upper midrange bump to the sound (almost like a -- dare I say it? -- SM57), and the bottom end did not seem very present. It's too late to check, but I'm thinking I might have had the low frequency roll off switch on (Doh! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/mad.gif[/img] ). It's also possible the demo unit I tried might have been defective or had been bounced around... I don't remember the U87 sounding quite that nasal. In the U87's defense, I ran a comparison of a recording that has a U87 with an Amek preamp and compared that to the vocal I made with my lowly Mackie, and attributed the difference in sound to the preamp (which added a lot more "air" to the sound). So a good preamp is next on the wish list... [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Also, the particular recording I listened to was done on analog tape, and I'm wondering if the "magical U87 sound" that I thought I had in my head was only because of the combination of that mic when it's on magnetic tape -- not the sound of the mic all by itself, recorded digitally. The NTK and TLM 103 were similar-sounding, but the NTK had a slight bit of extra "oomph" to the high end. Not sparkle, mind you, but a kind of vague power up in maybe the 10 kHz range. In blind listening tests, I would occasionally mix up the NTK and TLM, but I've come to the conclusion that, at least on my vocals, there's something very, very neutral about the TLM 103... Almost as if it's [i]nice[/i], but lacking in personality. The AT 4033 on vocals sounded pretty much like the recordings I had heard on the net which used a 4033... A very bright AKG C414-ish top end, but with an almost boomy, undefined lower end. The low end in particular reminded me of a dynamic EV mic I have (I don't remember the model #), and I don't mean that in a flattering way... I'd venture to say I thought the 4033 was good for the price, and certainly better than the cheapo condensers that have flooded the market in the past few years, but it really wasn't a sound that I dug on my vocals or acoustic. I recorded my AKG C535 in the same room as the other mics, just so I'd have a comparison to what's familiar... It's got a clear, almost "invisible" sound. There's a 2 dB rise between 7 and 12 kHz on the mic, and you can hear it. I like the way it sounds on acoustic guitar, but when you start multitracking vocals, there's a lot of crud that builds up on the top end. Sometimes the "crud" sounds nice, if you're going for an angelic/ethereal kind of sound (think George Michael's breathy vocals on the "Faith" album but not as extreme), but this mic lacks presence for vocals... The effect in a mix is that the vocals are "there but not really there". Lastly, there's the NTK. I really do like the way this particular mic sounds on my voice -- the low and high end are both really nice, but the high end is the part that pushes the mic into sounding truly "professional"-sounding... It doesn't "sizzle", it's not overbearing, but it's there and it's pleasant to listen to. I tried the NTK on my wife's voice and it turns out that she sounded excessively sibilant... For baritone male vocals (i.e. mine), I dig it, though. The biggest beef I have with the NTK is that there's no low frequency rolloff switch. Oh well, I can always EQ it before or after recording... I should note that I didn't buy the NTK, or any mic yet... I'm going to listen to the audio samples I made for the next few days under a variety of circumstances and make sure that my ears really are favoring the NTK and that it's not a sound I'll get tired of six months from now. So... I have two questions... 1) If the tube in the NTK goes, is it an easily-replaceable part? (My only exposure to tube mics up until now was the AKG C12, and I never owned it or had to fix anything with it...) 2) Can anyone recommend a reasonably-priced preamp that might sound great on an NTK? I'm considering building my own (there's a thread over in George's forum about building a preamp), but I'm open to buying one if it sounds great and it's not ridiculously expensive. I am planning to upgrade to a better, bigger console in the next year (I need more outs to the sound card to record drums), so I might wait until I upgrade my console and look for good preamps there. This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-13-2001 at 04:52 PM [/b][/quote]

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[quote]Originally posted by AliAlexandre: [b]I actually happen to loose confidence in the advices of salespersons in stores due to the lack of consistency of their judgements from stores to stores (some may tell you to buy a model that what considered a garbage by the store next to them....) Reviews in magazines ? well, ... [/b][/quote] Don't take my word for it or let my opinions cloud your own judgement of these mics... As someone mentioned earlier, mic comparison is [i]extremely[/i] subjective and what might sound like the holy grail to one set of ears might sound like junk to another. [quote]Originally posted by AliAlexandre: [b]Please let us know the final results of your testing and the preamp you will choose. [/b][/quote] Sure! I've done some more listening, and my impressions are a slight bit different than what I wrote in my previous post... I need to play the audio samples on more speakers to confirm what I think I'm hearing... I'll post again to this thread after I've formed more definite opinions.

[Bonafide]

Hey Pop, Here a sample of the NTK on a pop tune. http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/295/rodney_gene.html P.S. there a 3 tunes in the mail right now headed your way> Cheers.

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[quote]Originally posted by Bonafide: [b]Hey Pop, Here a sample of the NTK on a pop tune. http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/295/rodney_gene.html P.S. there a 3 tunes in the mail right now headed your way> Cheers.[/b][/quote] Thanks, Bonafide! Right now I can only listen on (very tinny-sounding) computer speakers, but I'll check it out on my monitors at home. What preamp did you use on the NTK?

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Well, I have a few revisions and caveats to my previous posts about my impressions of the mics I checked out. As I mentioned before on the U87, I wasn't sure if the bass rolloff switch was on... The U87 didn't seem to pick up as much bass. (Although I was in a somewhat quiet room, the bassy sound of the music store was still picked up in all of the mics except for the U87.) I figured out the discrepency: The U87 was in a shockmount. All the other mics were on a clip. So, to compare the bass of any of these mics to the U87 is kind of like comparing apples and oranges... It wasn't a scientifically-controlled test, that's for sure. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I've concluded that the U87 has a nasal-like quality on my voice. There seems to be a boost maybe around 800 Hz which isn't flattering at all, but works well on my acoustic. In fact, I'd venture to say that I like the sound of the U87 on my acoustic more than any of the other mics, but it's a very pop/rock kind of sound. What I mean is, it has a very "produced" kind of acoustic guitar sound, and would probably fit well in a mix with very little EQ. If it's like apples and oranges when comparing a mic with a shockmount to one on a clip, I'll just compare the apples from here on out. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] I did a lot of close listening with different speakers with the TLM 103 and the NTK to determine the differences between the two. Remember, both of these mics were on clips, so my description of the bass end in the environment I recorded the clips in (a somewhat quiet room in a noisy music store) would have been different had they been on shockmounts. The biggest difference (other than the indescribable high end "power" I previously tried to describe) seems to be in the bass frequencies. The TLM seems to extend down further, and has a full response on my vocal or acoustic down to about the 150 Hz range. I wouldn't quite call it "boomy" (the AT4033 fits that description), but there seems to be a little more going on down there than what would likely be used in a mix. The NTK seems to taper off at a higher frequency in the bass range, but to my ears sounds more controlled on the bottom. Again, these are very subtle variations between the two mics, and it's possible that the difference might be negligible had both mics been in shockmounts. My ears do not detect a world of difference between the NTK and TLM 103, but I still like the NTK for having a little more "personality". Perhaps there is a drastic difference on instruments other than male baritone vocals and acoustic guitar... I don't know, I didn't compare anything else. So that's where I am right now. I'm going to experiment a little more with the NTK samples in my DAW, but most likely I will be picking up the NTK. If money was no object, or if it was $1500 cheaper, I'd pick up a U87 too... But my long-standing automatic assumption that the U87 will sound pretty darn great on everyone's voice has quite frankly been shattered. It didn't sound good on mine, although I've used it on other singers with great results. I'm still looking for more preamp suggestions... I'd like to find something which has a little more "air" than my current old Mackie non-VLZ 1202 mixer, but I don't want something that's too sizzling or bright. Any suggestions? This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-14-2001 at 10:16 PM

[Bonafide]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b] Thanks, Bonafide! Right now I can only listen on (very tinny-sounding) computer speakers, but I'll check it out on my monitors at home. What preamp did you use on the NTK? [/b][/quote] I use a Pro Channel. I like the flexibility of using compression and EQ before tape. I am VERY pleased with that unit. Hard to find user reviews but once you do they all shine. Cheers.

[TubeDude]

Great sounding tune, Bonfide! Tell us more about your whole setup and what you used, everything sounds nice and clear... the mic sounds pretty nice, can't argue there...

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by popmusic: [b]A thread back from the dead! [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] So... I have two questions... 1) If the tube in the NTK goes, is it an easily-replaceable part? (My only exposure to tube mics up until now was the AKG C12, and I never owned it or had to fix anything with it...) [/b] Yes, you can get replacements, and they're not very expensive. Many tube mics (including my Telefunken ELA M 251 E's) use easily obtainable tubes, even though they're pushing 40 years of age. The 251 and C-12 use the 6072 tube, which is basically the same as a 12AY7). The major exception is the U47, which uses the VF14 tube, which hasn't been made since before WWII and commands premium prices IF you can find one. [b]2) Can anyone recommend a reasonably-priced preamp that might sound great on an NTK? I'm considering building my own (there's a thread over in George's forum about building a preamp), but I'm open to buying one if it sounds great and it's not ridiculously expensive. I am planning to upgrade to a better, bigger console in the next year (I need more outs to the sound card to record drums), so I might wait until I upgrade my console and look for good preamps there.[/b] I run my NTK with various preamps. It sounds GREAT with a Vintech 1272 (Neve clone), but that's probably more than you want to spend (I paid about $1,300 for mine). It also sounds nice with the Joe Meek channel strips, and a VC3Q is going for only $200 or so at Gtr Ctr these days. Another very nice sounding "inexpensive" preamp is the Presonus MP20, and the NTK sounds great with this preamp as well. Except for the Meek, both the preamps I mentioned above are dual channel units. The Meek and Vintech are probably considered "colored" units, while the MP20 is more "uncolored" in nature, although with the IDSS control, you can adjust the amount of "color". If you can spend a little more and want a single channel unit and are looking for an uncolored sound, then you might want to look at the Grace Designs 101. It goes for about $600. I have two of the boards for the preamp you mentioned from George's forum, and I'll eventually build them... I am planning on waiting for the case I'm going to buy from Scott (Gepco) to be ready, and then I'll get it done. From what I've seen of the design schematics and heard from various preamp gurus, it looks promising... But back to the NTK - you really would be hard pressed to find a better large diaphram mic bargain. I highly recommend it. Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://members.aol.com/ssanctuary/index.html pokeefe777@msn.com This message has been edited by popmusic on 08-13-2001 at 04:52 PM [/B][/quote]

[jnorman]

if you are still looking for audio axamples, i recorded a flute solo with the NTK - "syrinx" by claude debussy. you can hear it at mp3.com/rosewynde. jnorman sunridge studios salem, oregon

[clock]

I had a chance to test out the neumann tlm103 blue dragonfly shure ksm32 THe blue was nice. It had a nice sheen to it. very similar sounding to the tlm103 THe tlm 103 came out the winner. It had THE sound that is so prevalent on many recordings. THe shure KSM32 lost. It had a boomy blah sound to it. Even though it was good, I would never consider it as a vocal mic. I could not test out the ntk cos gc did not have the power supply, but I heard two recordings done with it (one on the futuremusic magazine cd) and it did not have the full low end that would do a singer like dido or sarah maclahlan or seal justice.

[DC]

mr. rob, I've recorded with the Blueberry. It suits my voice quite well as I feel I have too much low and low mids. The Blueberry is very bright with a controlled proximity effect. It won't get bassy until you get about 3" from the capsule and then it's never boomy. Thing that gets me is the C1 mic has a very similar response curve on paper. Bonafied, I really liked your tune. Would love to hear some more or trade some if you're interested. davecharles@musician.net