pauldil Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Who is legaly liable for injury or property damage caused due to moshing at a concert? I ask because my son is trying to put together a metal concert and he expects people to mosh. He's 18 and his name would be on the contract for the venue. He's asked me to lend him money up front, so that means I'd be somewhat associated too. Anybody know the legal liability? Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluesape Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I would imagine that he's legally an adult in Illinois, but I would think you'd be out your funds if sh*t were to happen. Never a DUH! moment! Well, almost never. OK, OK! Sometimes never! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Ellwood Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Check further but that would be the last thing I would do is to be associated with that kind of project! Your association with this project even as a backer/investor could very well make you responsible and disclaimers on tickets and postings are defeated all the time in court. http://www.thestringnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 I should have mentioned that I already told him no. He's not happy, but I have a lot more to lose than he does. Just looking online, I saw that most companies that specialize in insuring events do not cover mosh pits. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steevo Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by pauldil: Who is legaly liable for injury or property damage caused due to moshing at a concert? I ask because my son is trying to put together a metal concert and he expects people to mosh. He's 18 and his name would be on the contract for the venue. He's asked me to lend him money up front, so that means I'd be somewhat associated too. Anybody know the legal liability? Thanks, Paul If someone fell and broke their neck, I guarantee you that anyone that had signed their name for any responsibilty to the event would be a target. Everything you have ever worked for or acclumulated will be at risk. If you have to 'lend' him money to do this thing, I would disclaim any responsibility in writing and make your 18 year old adult son sign off on it. With love of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motor city rocker Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 What is moshing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 The smart man buys liability insurance for that single event. Anyone that gets hurt today will name everyone associated with the event, including sponsors and acts, and obviously, the promoter. This does not release you/him from liability, as if he does not take due care (however they chose to phrase it in your state...) the insurance company can bail, leaving him hanging out to dry. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by motor city rocker: What is moshing? Moshing, AFAIK is that stuff that happens down the front of the audience, where people slamdance and jump around and so on. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios: The smart man buys liability insurance for that single event. Bill, do you know if there are insurance carriers that will actually cover mosh pits? I haven't had a lot of time to research, but every event insurance site I visited explicitly excludes mosh pits from their coverage. Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldil Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.: Originally posted by motor city rocker: What is moshing? Moshing, AFAIK is that stuff that happens down the front of the audience, where people slamdance and jump around and so on. Yep, that's basically it. Kids slamming into each other in a crowd. I've always looked at it as a lawsuit just waiting to happen, which is why I'm asking about the liability. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 What about the venue? Are they insured? Mosh pits excluded? There should be a notice on the ticket or something. You go to a sports event and they warn you to look out for flying pucks and stuff. My personal non-lawyer, legal employee opinion is that if the venue clearly posts a disclaimer along the lines of "not responsible for mosh pit", there is no liability - not that that would stop someone from suing and wasting everyone's time - so I see your concern. The other end of the spectrum would be a big "No moshing" sign, and the club would have to have adequate staff to enforce that, to the extent possible. If they just had the "no" sign with no enforcement, that could be a liability issue. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by pauldil: I've always looked at it as a lawsuit just waiting to happen, which is why I'm asking about the liability. Surely it must happen hundreds of times every evening, all across America. And I'm sure somebody must get hurt or simply pissed or something at every concert. Wonder why nobody seems to sue? Or do they actually sue but we never hear about it? Anybody? Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbue Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 One way to protect yourself is to have every person that walks through the door sign a waiver agreeing to not hold you or your son liable for any possible bodily injury or loss/damage of property. Mix of Rock, Metal & Heavy Fusion http://www.visualcliff.net My new band...Melodic Hard Rock http://www.fallofechoes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Consider this anecdotal evidence It's a short article, read the whole thing. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Taster Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Regardess of how well one is covered insurance wise, it is always best to have everything you own conveyed into a few Trust Organizations or into LLC's. Once you sign everything over, no one can attach any property to you. Definitely the way to go before undertaking something such as this Rule #1 - Thou Shalt Not Have Anything In Thy Name Rule #2 - Don't forget Rule #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by Kramer Ferrington III.: ]Surely it must happen hundreds of times every evening, all across America. There is always a low life looking for a free ride. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by pauldil: Bill, do you know if there are insurance carriers that will actually cover mosh pits? I haven't had a lot of time to research, but every event insurance site I visited explicitly excludes mosh pits from their coverage. Thanks, Paul Sorry, I'm not in the mosh pit business. But I know that these events happen a lot, and I know that the promoters have coverage, and I know that, at least when I was in the production end of live rock and roll, the insurance was issued on a per event basis. Most venues will not even allow you to HAVE an event if you are not covered. It is in the contract, and they often require a copy of the face page for their records as proof that you are carrying insurance. Probably the smart thing to do would be NOT TO SET UP A MOSH PIT, and to have (t-shirted, not uniformed)security at the front of the stage to prevent one from 'spontaneously' breaking out. I've worked the Rolling Rock Town Fair for several years, and the entire field between the sound platform and the stage becomes one big rolling mud-filled mosh. Nickleback, Velvet Revolver, all sorts of harder bands. Some of what goes on looks really scary to those not involved. One way that they have helped to keep a little control was to put a barracade all the way down the middle of the venue from the stage to the sound platform. this provides a safe place to run the cabling, and quick access for the crews to get between the areas. It also splits the crowd in half, which does seem to help with the crowd control. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by Billster: What about the venue? Are they insured? Mosh pits excluded? There should be a notice on the ticket or something. You go to a sports event and they warn you to look out for flying pucks and stuff. My personal non-lawyer, legal employee opinion is that if the venue clearly posts a disclaimer along the lines of "not responsible for mosh pit", there is no liability - not that that would stop someone from suing and wasting everyone's time - so I see your concern. The other end of the spectrum would be a big "No moshing" sign, and the club would have to have adequate staff to enforce that, to the extent possible. If they just had the "no" sign with no enforcement, that could be a liability issue. AAAANNNNGGGGHHH!!! Wrong answer! As promoter of an event you absolutely are responsible to have insurance for whatever reasonable risks are present. Writing a disclaimer is legally worthless, other than to say you proactively warned people there could be danger present. It's like those, "Management not responsible for items missing or stolen from your vehicle" signs at parking lots. In most states those signs are not illegal to post, but have no legal force. If they issue you a bond in the form of a ticket, I assure you your state has a law governing exactly what you can hold them liable for while your vehicle is in their possession. I work for a corporate event company. We are responsible for providing proof of insurance to the venue, as well as responsible for obtaining any fire permits, etc. necessary for the event. In several instances we've had to buy additional insurance, above and beyond our ongoing policy, to have enough for a specific gig at a specific venue. Do NOT let your son sign anything that makes him responsible for the safety of an audience. If they want to hold this event, see to it they find a promoter to handle these important details or create a corporation (yeah, right! ) that can absorb the monetary hit should something go wrong above and beyond any personal negligence. And see a lawyer, first, either way. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by fantasticsound: It's like those, "Management not responsible for items missing or stolen from your vehicle" signs at parking lots. In most states those signs are not illegal to post, but have no legal force. If they issue you a bond in the form of a ticket, I assure you your state has a law governing exactly what you can hold them liable for while your vehicle is in their possession. I don't want to get into one of our back and forths, but the ticket is a contract. A concert ticket will spell out stuff like no recording devices, etc. It can also spell out not responsible for mosh pitting. There's also a difference in liability for something like slipping on poorly made temporary dance floor (seen those cases), and actively participating in causing your own injury (hello mosh pit). At a certain point people are either surprised by a circumstance, or the circumstance was entirely predictable. If you warn of predictable consequences, there is a defense to any potential suit. That's why you see warnings not to use hairdryers in swimming pools and stuff like that - lowest common denominator baby. Comparitive liability would play a huge role in a mosh pit case (see the article I linked above). That wouldn't be as a big a factor in a case of something like slipping on spilled beer that no one cleaned up. I'm not implying that a warning is bulletproof protection. But I've seen enough cases where somebody wants to sue for something they knew was going to happen to them. Neil, check your mail in a little while. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Wow, I don't know mosh pits still existed! Guess I gotta get out more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motor city rocker Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Kids slamming into each other in a crowd. I've always looked at it as a lawsuit just waiting to happen, which is why I'm asking about the liability. Yeah I saw that at a concert I went to a while back. I thought it was the most retarded thing I ever saw at a concert. I had a motorcycle accident several years ago that resulted in a back injury and I couldn't enjoy the concert cause I was constantly trying to protect my back GRRRR. I would feel safer up on stage playing rather than in the crowd of kids doing that crap. Moshing should be illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkMonkey Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Here in Vegas the cops are leaning on the hotels to stop having Gangsta Rap concerts because of all the violence. The venue and promoters are responsible for all liabilities concerning their events. Play really loud and everything will be allright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardtail Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 I like my aggessive music sometimes. I never understood the mosh pit thing though. To me, it looked like a pit full of drunk and testosteroned losers who can't get laid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Taster Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Or you can see the national guard start their own mosh pit If that link is not compatible here's the windows version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Originally posted by motor city rocker: Moshing should be illegal. Maybe that's a little too full on? I too, think moshing is silly. But even though I've stood pretty close to the moshers (2-3 feet), nothing's ever happened to me. Knock wood. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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