Eric Iverson Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I was wandering the Keyboard forum, and happened to read a thread about prog(ressive) rock, and someone mentioned that they loved to play in odd meters (7/4, 11/4) etc. And I remembered how, starting with "Take Five", that's something that lots of people have done in rock and jazz and fusion over the years! (Remember Mahavishnu?) Thinking back on it, it's cool to experiment with rhythms other than 3/4 and 4/4! It ain't a new thing, though, and most people are fairly stiff in 7/4, for example. And there are plenty of things you can do in 3 and 4 to add rhythmic variety! Do any of you guys out there play things in odd meters these days? Just curious! Especially since it's slow at work and I'm listening to, and reading "Basics In Rhythm" by Garwood Whaley which has lots of exercise in 5/8 and 7/8 etc. Since they won't let me practice my instruments at the office! Blue meanies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comacoda Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 As a self taught guitarist spending the first five years playing fingerstyle, I started out in 7/4 and other odd meters when I began trying to make rock songs. It wasn't a conscious effort, just a tendancy I developed along the way. It took a lot of effort to find things that sounded interesting to me in 4/4, but had to, in order to play with other musicians. I like odd meters and still tend to think in odd meters when I work up new riffs, I usually have to rework things to get it into standard time or something more akin to it. Live long and prosper unless it is a good day to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappy P Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 That's what I'm working on this year. I trying to play in 5/4 time. I'll let you know how it goes. Me I always get confused by Time Sigs. I've never understood why you have different time sigs. I just figured you played faster or slower. But I think now maybe each time sig lends itself to different rythms. T The only way I will learn is to experiment I guess. www.birdblues.com My Stuff On Sound Click Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Taster Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Alot of Greek Music has odd meters and even dances to go along. I have alot of grooves and tunes already completed w/metric modulation I try to put the choruses in 4/4, though fo closure. I have some other things I do when i play w/other groups where I imply odd meters over the 4/4 w/o them even noticing. definitely gets the drummers attention, though Yup, I love odd meters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWelcome Home Studios Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Try the first New Heavenly Blue album. Chris and Darius rock, in really wierd times. Bill "I believe that entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot." Steve Martin Show business: we're all here because we're not all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I I mjrn Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Actually, Pappa, the point of the time sig is the meter, not the rhythm. They B related but not the same. My favorites R 5 & 7. I got a hot James Brown style toon N 5/4 that most listeners never even realize they B dancing on a diff foot every bar! & that's the rill key to using these, not drawing obvious attention 2 their use, otherwise U just B like some progrocker tryin' 2 put folks thru Ur chops wringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I like them too. A good way to get into them is, of course, listening rather than playing at first. As mentioned Greek (& Turkish) music's got a lot in this area. I also like the mention a couple posters have made of dance in odd times. I heartily agree that finding a groove that feels human does a lot to take this out of the are of mere intelectual exercise. Also, re: time signatures & rhythms, there is a difference, as said above. Time signature is determined by the underlying feel of a piece of music. Rhythm can be much more variable, changing from section to section, even phrase to phrase. Beefheart & Zappa are examples of rock use of odd meters but one of the most mainstream rock bands ever, the Beatles had a knack for them too. Check out "All You Need is Love", with it's time shifts or, more to the exact point here, two of the songs on Sgt Pepper, "Good Morning" & "Within You Without You". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 I'm currently working on a thing that goes with alternating bars of 5/4 and 4/4. It is NOT simply 9/4. The determination of the time signature is all about the accents. My cheap laugh line during our wedding planning was that the first dance was going to be to "The Ocean" by Led Zappelin, the alternating 7/8 bars really make for a romantic moment. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FormerOceanwaySlave Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I have fond memories of playing a tune that was in 9/4 and 9/8, alternating bars. The drummer did need to pay attention in that tune. I've played a good bit of 5/4, 7/4, 7/8, 9/4, and 11/4 as well as the essentially 4/4 that is 12/8. The key to many songs in compound meters is to subdivide: 9/4 is often 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3, 1-2; 7/8 can be 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2; and 12/8 is of course, 1-2-3, 2-2-3, 3-2-3, 4-2-3, etc. Compound time can be fun but it is really most interesting when it serves a musical purpose and isn't just being used to make things appear harder than they actually are. It's just combinations of threes and twos. On the other hand, I do know someone who had to wrap his head around 60/16! Cheers, Alan Tomlinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bear Jew Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I don't really care for weird signatures.. unless they feel natural. Basically, I like whatever works for the tune. If it's 4/4, great... if it's 7/4, fine. I don't really care, just as long as I'm playing the music in my head. \m/ Erik "To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." --Sun Tzu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric VB Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Bill beat me to a Zep reference, but I know everyone was thinking "Black Dog". My initial and more extensive exposure to odd meter was through classical music. One of the most memorable was by Elliot del Borgo, "Do not go gentle into that good night" , inspired by the Dylan Thomas poem of the same name. In fact, I "borrowed" the 5/8 with alternating accents for one of my compositions. I agree with FOS that it all boils down to 2s and 3s. I think everyone struggles the first time they try to play 7/8, especially if they come from the toe-tapping school of time keeping. It's amazing how the last 8th note has a tendency to get stretched to a quarter note. And just when you think you're all comfortable with odd meter, along come polyrhythms. Like the shrunken head in the Harry Potter movie said, "Hang on, we're in for a bumpy ride!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tone Taster Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 There are some PHAT Brazillian grooves in 5/8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantasticsound Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I like 'em, but don't use them much. La Villa Strangiato by Rush uses a variety of changing meters to deliberately change the feel and I know guitarists who've had trouble with those parts, but I find that particular difficulty just a bit amusing as the guitar parts are repeating groups of 1/8th notes with additional 1/8ths thrown in. The point is, you can play straight 1/8ths and pick up the feel as playing those notes becomes more familiar. In that case the odd signature is really very easy for the guitar player. It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman Soundclick fntstcsnd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Originally posted by fantasticsound: I like 'em, but don't use them much. La Villa Strangiato by Rush uses a variety of changing meters to deliberately change the feel and I know guitarists who've had trouble with those parts, but I find that particular difficulty just a bit amusing as the guitar parts are repeating groups of 1/8th notes with additional 1/8ths thrown in. The point is, you can play straight 1/8ths and pick up the feel as playing those notes becomes more familiar. In that case the odd signature is really very easy for the guitar player. I don't know those parts, but in concept it's not simply stringing out 8th notes until you feel the groove. #1 - You need to accent properly for the feel, which is not going to be the same as a standard 4/4 8th note pulse. #2 - The melodic phrasing may not lay naturally on the instrument, or in the key. The notes which extend beyond an 8 note group might be chromatics or they might be in the middle of the phrasing, not "tacked onto" the end of a line to make it 11/8. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 The comment that 2s & 3s underly all other meters is basically correct but it doesn't mean that meters like 5/4 or 7/8 can be reduced to them. As Billster's pointing out, the validity lies in the actual analysis of the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 Of course there's "Money" by Pink Floyd with that section in 7/4... I didn't notice at the time it was in an odd time! If I had to pick one guy who really excels at odd times, it would be Ravi Shankar, with those incredible tabla players [indian drummers for those who aren't aging hippies] - he can even make 6 1/2/4 swing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Ferrington III. Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I like sampling short phrases on my Boss DD3 (I sec sampling time) and then messing them up so the time signature becomes completely alien. I then try to play over the top of it. Band MySpace My snazzy t-shirt empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric VB Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Originally posted by Billster: #1 - You need to accent properly for the feel, which is not going to be the same as a standard 4/4 8th note pulse. Originally posted by d: The comment that 2s & 3s underly all other meters is basically correct but it doesn't mean that meters like 5/4 or 7/8 can be reduced to them.Sure, it's an over simplification to say that every meter is just 2s and 3s. What's the feel for "Take 5"? The underlying rhythm I feel is 1-2-3 4-5, or 1-2-3 1-2. But, as you say, to say all 5/4 songs have such a simple feel would be incorrect. I'm not familiar with it, but I understand that some non-Western music has quite complicated meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 FWIW, I learned "Take Five" as a jazz waltz with a beat missing from the every other bar. Doo-dit-doo-dit/doo-dit... Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 And I once heard "Take Five" played in FOUR on a CD at a record store... a surreal moment indeed! Of course, some of the novice drummers I've worked with played a bad backbeat to EVERYTHING (because that's all they knew) - to tunes in 3/4 even. I'm quite positive they would have done the same to "Take Five" and not have a clue to what us know-it-all guitarists were complaining about! (I'm sure some of them hated me, at least on occasion!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_dup3 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 As has been pointed out by several here, the real value is when one has some music that just fits well. We all have to practice exercises to learn things but let's not confuse them with music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Iverson Posted January 31, 2006 Author Share Posted January 31, 2006 Tonight I think that, after I practice my lesson (write on the blackboard 50 times: I WILL practice my lesson first.. I WILL practice my lesson first), I may get out the metronome and try to come up with a bass line in 7/4, just for fun! I don't think I could use it in any of the venues I play in at the moment! But it's cool to do things off the beaten track once in a while! Like taking a scale you are unfamiliar with, and building lines and harmonies based on that scale alone. Try this one: A B C E F - no Gs or Ds allowed, and forget about any black notes! You discover things by these experiments, find new fingerings, new chords... I don't know where I'd use it unless I get a gig in a Japanese restaurant! But it was a fun experiment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Jazz Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Originally posted by CMDN: I don't really care for weird signatures.. unless they feel natural. Basically, I like whatever works for the tune. If it's 4/4, great... if it's 7/4, fine. I don't really care, just as long as I'm playing the music in my head. totally agree. i've played with some guys that thought they HAD to play odd time to be legitimate or something, and it always sounded forced and contrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardtail Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I like tunes that are in 4/4 but maybe have a bridge part with an odd meter. Damned if I can think of any now. Some Zappa comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billster Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Originally posted by Funk Jazz: i've played with some guys that thought they HAD to play odd time to be legitimate or something, and it always sounded forced and contrived. Yeah, there has to be a groove, even if it is odd meter. I was thinking Rite of Spring today, and that's all in bizarro meters, but the sections still have rhythmic drive that you can dig into. Buy my CD on CD Baby! Bill Hartzell - the website MySpace?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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