Jotown Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 For those of you who do not understand the reasons why the world does not support our presidents Iraq policy, I urge you to read the following letter of resignation from John Brady Kiesling. http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/kiesling.html Mr. Kiesling is a career diplomat who has made headlines with his public resignation over the Administration's Iraq policy. His letter articulates the fears and doubts that many in the world, and at home, have with Bush's Iraq policy. From his resignation letter: [quote]The policies we are now asked to advance are incompatible not only with American values but also with American interests. Our fervent pursuit of war with Iraq is driving us to squander the international legitimacy that has been America's most potent weapon of both offense and defense since the days of Woodrow Wilson. We have begun to dismantle the largest and most effective web of international relationships the world has ever known. Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security. The sacrifice of global interests to domestic politics and to bureaucratic self-interest is nothing new, and it is certainly not a uniquely American problem. Still, we have not seen such systematic distortion of intelligence, such systematic manipulation of American opinion, since the war in Vietnam. [/quote] Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mats Olsson. Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Thanks for posting that link. The letter contains a lot more food for thought than the quote above. I believe that John Brady Kiesling's analysis is very clear and accurate. I hope that a lot of people read it all and tries to understand what he is saying. I also hope that this thread will develop in a civil and respectful manner. /Mats http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif What do we want? Procrastination! When do we want it? Later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpine Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Wow ... what a powerful statement. I hadn't heard of this resignation. www.relayerstudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sign Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote] We have begun to dismantle the largest and most effective web of international relationships the world has ever known. Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security. [/quote]How true this is! [quote]We should ask ourselves why we have failed to persuade more of the world that a war with Iraq is necessary. [/quote]How true this is! [quote] Have we indeed become blind, as Russia is blind in Chechnya, as Israel is blind in the Occupied Territories, to our own advice, that overwhelming military power is not the answer to terrorism? [/quote]I'm afraid we will find out soon. [quote]When our friends are afraid of us rather than for us, it is time to worry. And now they are afraid. Who will tell them convincingly that the United States is as it was, a beacon of liberty, security, and justice for the planet? [/quote]Why don't you have a guy like him for president? Thanks for the link, what a great article The alchemy of the masters moving molecules of air, we capture by moving particles of iron, so that the poetry of the ancients will echo into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJDM Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Thanks Jotown. DJDM.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick K. Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 That's interesting, Jotown. Good find. I'm glad to see that people can disagree!! I'm just wondering why he choose to grandstand so much? [url=http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_4677.shtml]Here\'s another interesting article[/url] that was written about his retirement. Personally, I think it was an insurance policy for future employment. I subscribe to the 'lecture circuit' theory. Otherwise he would have kept it quiet. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpel Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 This strikes me as just a snide, sneering, ad hominem, contemptous and utterly predictable dismissal of a genuinely powerful piece of writing, and I'm not from the "Woody Guthrie" crowd. The two pieces of writing linked to in this thread couldn't be called intellectual equals, could they? I mean really? The diplomat's letter clearly isn't going to change the administration's course of action, so let it breathe, you know? He's saying some interesting things, don't you think? [quote]Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer: [b]That's interesting, Jotown. Good find. I'm glad to see that people can disagree!! I'm just wondering why he choose to grandstand so much? [url=http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_4677.shtml]Here\'s another interesting article[/url] that was written about his retirement. Personally, I think it was an insurance policy for future employment. I subscribe to the 'lecture circuit' theory. Otherwise he would have kept it quiet. Rick[/b][/quote] Check out the Sweet Clementines CD at bandcamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumpelstiltskin. Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 it's funny that that article mentions the similarities between this war and vietnam. i was talking to my wife's grandfather, a WWII vet and arch-republican, this weekend, and he doesn't like this war. he said, "i don't understand why anyone would be in the reserves any more. it used to be a way to avoid the draft, but now they all end up fighting. but why? where are all of our troops, that we need to call up all of our reserves for a war? i don't like this war. it's too much like vietnam. i don't know why we're there." robb. because i like people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rick Kreuzer: [url=http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_4677.shtml]Here\'s another interesting article[/url] that was written about his retirement.[/quote]Yes....this article is even more interesting than Kieslings resignation. I especially liked the last paragraph: [quote]Despite all this, Kiesling would have us ask ourselves why we have failed to persuade more of the world that a war with Iraq is necessary. The most obvious answer is that because an invasion is inevitable, its unnecessary, even unwise for our allies support it publicly, because doing so will only make them a target of hostility. Under these conditions, there isn't anything Bush could have said to prevent the rupture of NATO or to avoid the diplomatic mess at the Security Council. So well have to go it alone, without their help and, alas, without our good man Kiesling. We can only hope that when the Secretary of State responds to the letter of resignation, Powell is able to match Kieslings soaring prose. Ive got a suggestion: [i]Dear John: Dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Sincerely, Colin Powell P.S. Get some sleep.[/i][/quote]My sentiments exactly!!! :p Oh and since some of you are so hung up on polls and what other people think we should do... ...well, the latest poll in the USA shows about 70% of the people backing Bush's Iraq policy. Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick K. Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I'm sorry you took it like you did, Magpel. I intended to just show another aspect to this. To further my hypothesis, here's a couple of quick google.com search results. [url=http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg65180.html]Hamilton College Lecture after resignation[/url] [url=http://webcast.berkeley.edu/events/]Berkley Webcast after resignation[/url] Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod S Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over.[/b][/quote]I try to stay out of this, but statements like this are just beyond belief. Well, that's because it's not your fucking ass getting bombed. The US has never given a shit about war, because it's never being in your soil. Man, it's comments like yours that makes me think for a split second that bombing WTC was right. Note that I said 'split second'. I don't agree with it. Korg Kronos X73 / ARP Odyssey / Motif ES Rack / Roland D-05 / JP-08 / SE-05 / Jupiter Xm / Novation Mininova / NL2X / Waldorf Pulse II MBP-LOGIC American Deluxe P-Bass, Yamaha RBX760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GZsound Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Your "split second" thought is totally unacceptable. I would suggest a very quick appology. I also would suggest a complete ban of your membership on this forum and of any future posts. To suggest, under any circumstances, that the terrorist attacks of 9/11 were deserved or are somehow validated makes you an unacceptable participant to this discussion. People can agree or disagree with each other. However, your comment is completely out of line. I would appreciate the other members of this forum supporting removal of your membership. Mark G. "A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs "I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpine Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rod S: [b] [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over.[/b][/quote]I try to stay out of this, but statements like this are just beyond belief. Well, that's because it's not your fucking ass getting bombed. The US has never given a shit about war, because it's never being in your soil. Man, it's comments like yours that makes me think for a split second that bombing WTC was right. Note that I said 'split second'. I don't agree with it.[/b][/quote]And thus starts the inevitble backlash of anti-American sentiment. www.relayerstudios.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rod S: [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started, and the sooner it will be over.[/quote]I try to stay out of this, but statements like this are just beyond belief. Well, that's because it's not your fucking ass getting bombed. The US has never given a shit about war, because it's never being in your soil. Man, it's comments like yours that makes me think for a split second that bombing WTC was right. Note that I said 'split second'. I don't agree with it.[/quote]I have NO idea what the fuck you are ranting about...and I dont think you do either. Look...this is gonna' happen one way or another...and my point is that I just want to get it over with...NOT that I'm looking forward to it. Like some guy said on TV the other day... (paraphrasing here): "All this debating is starting to drive me nuts, to the point that I'm ready get in a tank and drive it to Baghdad myself...JUST so that we can get this thing over with." Theyre just comments that are made out of the frustration from all this waiting for the inevitable to happen. Oh...your comments about the USA never giving a shit about war because it's never been on our soil......just proves that you really have NO idea what you are talking about. And...you comment about the bombing of the WTC being justified (even if you DID say "for split a second")... ...just proves that you are an IDIOT. :thu: I wonder how you would feel if it happened in Rio? miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanThomas Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rod S: [b] [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over.[/b][/quote]I try to stay out of this, but statements like this are just beyond belief. Well, that's because it's not your fucking ass getting bombed. The US has never given a shit about war, because it's never being in your soil. Man, it's comments like yours that makes me think for a split second that bombing WTC was right. Note that I said 'split second'. I don't agree with it.[/b][/quote]Uh, well it's not [i]your[/i] "fucking ass" getting bombed either. Your compassion is touching but misplaced. As for your comment regarding the World Trade Center, it could be interpreted this way: That, given what you consider to be the correct set of circumstances, you yourself consider certain acts of violence, such as mass murder, to be perfectly acceptable. How then, are you any different from those that you think are wrong for attacking Iraq? Signatures can appear at the bottom of your posts. This option may be disabled by the message board administrators at any time, however. You may use UBB Code in your signature, but not HTML. UBB Code Images are permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 IMO wanting to get the war started because of frustration, impatiance, boredom or whatever doesn't cut it. "Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over" This isn't something inconveniant like a trip to the dentist, many thousands of innocent people from both sides are about to die. I don't think it's too late to do something either, continuing dissent can still affect the duration of this war. I'm betting Bush is hoping that when the bombs start to fall live on fucking CNN, then the majority of anti-war people will become less vocal and more resigned. I'm hoping that the exact reverse will happen. I guess we'll find out soon enough - have people had all the fight taken out of them or not? Do people give a shit any more? How bad does this have to get? Peace. "That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." - Banky Edwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfur Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]Your "split second" thought is totally unacceptable. I would suggest a very quick appology. I also would suggest a complete ban of your membership on this forum and of any future posts.[/b] Wow! Geez Mark, chill out for a second. What good are knee-jerk reactions to sensitive topics? I have no fear of being exposed to viewpoints or opinions of an issue that aren't in agreement with my own. [b]To suggest, under any circumstances, that the terrorist attacks of 9/11 were deserved or are somehow validated makes you an unacceptable participant to this discussion.[/b] To completely disallow discussion of motives and strategy of the opposition in any contest is not wise. In todays global situation I think it is more important than ever before. [b]People can agree or disagree with each other.[/b] Apparently not if you were to moderate a internet forum. [b]However, your comment is completely out of line. I would appreciate the other members of this forum supporting removal of your membership.[/b] I think some of your comments are mis-informed, lacking in tact and could be construed as dangerous in the wrong hands. Does this mean I should begin an effort to have you removed? I wouldn't want to do that, you've got every right to spout your silliness here as do I.[/quote]Keiting's resignation and letter are worthy of discussion, especially in light of his position as a US representative abroad. It is sad that so few officials have the stones to take these kind of actions. Woof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by GZsound: [b]Your "split second" thought is totally unacceptable. I would suggest a very quick appology. I also would suggest a complete ban of your membership on this forum and of any future posts. To suggest, under any circumstances, that the terrorist attacks of 9/11 were deserved or are somehow validated makes you an unacceptable participant to this discussion. People can agree or disagree with each other. However, your comment is completely out of line. I would appreciate the other members of this forum supporting removal of your membership.[/b][/quote]Who the hell made you the thought police of this forum? Funk off dude! :D Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 . Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by Rog: [QB]IMO wanting to get the war started because of frustration, impatiance, boredom or whatever doesn't cut it. "Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over" This isn't something inconveniant like a trip to the dentist, many thousands of innocent people from both sides are about to die.[/quote]Boy...some of you folks really need a soap box... :rolleyes: Thanks for pointing that out...like I don't know people will die...glad you have so much vision. [quote]I don't think it's too late to do something either, continuing dissent can still affect the duration of this war.[/quote]Feel free to dissent...just like I'm free to say "let's get going on this"... [quote]I'm betting Bush is hoping that when the bombs start to fall live on fucking CNN, then the majority of anti-war people will become less vocal and more resigned.[/quote]Actually...the polls in the USA show that the MAJORITY are behind him. And...just like some of you that are against "the war" don't like when it's assumed you are also anti-American... ...then don't assume when some people say "let's get this over with"...that it's because they don't value life, or because they are "pro war". Like many other things in life...you build to a climax...and then you proceed. Can't haggle forever...it makes you look indecisive and puts you in a position to be a patsy. This inevitable war became inevitable the minute France started with the VETO mentality, because they basically said NOTHING would change their minds... ...and gave the USA only one option, to give in to France's viewpoints....but I don't see that as realistic, because France doesnt give in to ours. So lets get going and finish this thing as soon as we can, so that maybe then we can get beck to some normalcy in our lives. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Oh man! Enough with the POLLS! I had a day job [i]designing[/i] polls. I just gave it up out of disgust. You want a particular outcome? Well, you can get that outcome a hundred different ways. Polls show nothing, unless the methodology is shared, and even then, they mean very little. The vast majority of polls that you see aren't even conducted under the correct guidelines, ie at least 1500 of each interest group, race, age, etc. The results of each group should then be weighted to reflect the actual population of each interest group. That is NEVER really done, so none of these polls can really claim to be representative. Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Nowdays, polls are just used to silence opinions, and tell people what they should support. Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotown Posted March 17, 2003 Author Share Posted March 17, 2003 I have seen polls that say that 65% of Americans support Bush, but 75% of Americans don't think he has made a case for war against Iraq. What does that say to you>? Jotown:) "It's all good: Except when it's Great" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 The problem is the actual questions in these polls. One cannot ask just one question and have a valid poll. Many of these questions are also inferred to be predictive of things they are not. Just because one supports the president does not mean they support war for example. And someone supporting the war if we decide to go in, is entirely different from supporting actually going in. Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miroslav Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Well then...why do the war protesters use "world polls" to make their point about how much e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e is against this? It's the same thing then...same stupid polls. At least Bush never bought into the poll mentality like some other politicos tend to do all the time...they have no real viewpoints of their own...so they monitor polls and focus groups. I actually don't know for sure how much of..."THE WORLD"...is openly against this particular war with Iraq... or how many are just generally anti-all war on pure principal, without ever looking at the reasons behind a particular war. miroslav - miroslavmusic.com "Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: [b] At least Bush never bought into the poll mentality like some other politicos tend to do all the time...they have no real viewpoints of their own...so they monitor polls and focus groups. [/b][/quote]Where do you get that information from? The ether? Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathtoallwhoopposeme Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by miroslav: Oh and since some of you are so hung up on polls and what other people think we should do... ...well, the latest poll in the USA shows about 70% of the people backing Bush's Iraq policy. Enough already...the sooner we get this thing started and the sooner it will be over.[/QB][/quote]The problem with the polls in the US, is that at LEAST 70% of the people here have a skewed vistion of reality due to the fact that they are ignorant of what's really going on. They get their news from MSNBC, FOX and CNN and fully believe the propaganda..Some are stupid, some are ignorant, some are lazy, but most are just pressed for time and do not realize that the US Media is HEAVILY slanted and that people's opionions are being manipulated....So, US polls are for shit basically. Sean Michael Mormelo www.seanmmormelo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtoledo3 Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 Is the majority always right anyway ? Ever heard of gang mentality? Want mix/tracking feedback? Checkout "The Fade"- www.grand-designs.cc/mmforum/index.php The soon-to-be home of the "12 Bar-Blues Project" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick K. Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 [quote]Originally posted by sventvkg: [b]They get their news from MSNBC, FOX and CNN and fully believe the propaganda.[/b][/quote]Tell me where to get the correct version of the news. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael saulnier Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 I'm not shocked that someone in the Bush administration has decided to resign... in a public way or not. In such a big organization, made up of tens of thousands of people, you would expect some variations in thinking including strong feelings of dissention about this issue. It's perhaps MORE amazing that there haven't been many others. I'm not sure whether this means that most people in the administration care more for their jobs and income than their position on the war, or that most people don't think this is an effective means of protest, or they agree with the administration or what? But certainly this isn't a "mass" quitting under protest... I also was a bit shocked that the weekend's anti-war protests were less well attended than previous ones. Are the protesters getting "tired" of protesting? Is the anti-war protest speakers rhetoric linking the military action in Iraq with Israel vs Palestine, or that this is only US imperalism, or simply "blood for oil", or only a "racist" war against Islam, and so on too extreme for the more centrist of the anti-war folks? Maybe people have just resigned themselves to the fact that war is inevitable. But for whatever reason, attendence at the rallies were considerably less than other recent weekends events. guitplayer I'm still "guitplayer"! Check out my music if you like... http://www.michaelsaulnier.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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