Songwriting Tips

[FreddieB]

Ok, Me and my friend who plays guitar are trying to write out new material b/c we don't want to do that many cover songs, and what i need are some tips on how to make a good song. Like should i have my friend play a rhythm and then i join or opposite of that.

[I I mjrn]

Give it a good beat---the kind the kids like to dance to!

 

Seriously, there are so many aspects of songwriting that to outline overall guidelines would be nearly pointless (although I bet many will try).

Do this: listen to several songs that you like in various styles & by various writers. Take note of the things that you like about each song; also notice what may be different about different songs by the same writer; notice the things that you might think are weak about some songs, as well.

That should give you some ideas to start with.

 

No two writers are the same---even from song to song, unless they're kinda formulaic (read: boring), so there can really be no universal guidelines.

 

P.S. Take note, too, of the difference between the song, the performance of the song & the arrangement/recording. All are different aspects & have their own effect.

For example a good song can be weakened by a poor performance...or a good performance (or recording) can give interest to material that might barely rate as a song, just by it's lyrics.

[batch151]

You may want to try some reading. There are actually quite few books on songwriting in general, and many more on specific topics (lyrics, melody, etc). Try searching in amazon.com or berkleemusic.com.

 

I've personally read a couple. (Legendary) songwriter Jimmy Webb has a good book on songwriting called 'Tunesmith'. I also really liked Paul Zollo's 'Songwriters on Songwriting'. (Its actually a series of interviews with famous writers on the songwriting process, so it may not be what you're looking for as a beginner.)

 

I'm sure people can suggest other titles.

 

Of course nothing beats real experience.

[george costanza]

I personally thought that Jim Webb book was kinda fluffy---which I would say is the general situation.

 

I think MJ's RN may be onto something. song's are written in so many ways that to attempt categorizing the process inevitably either presents only the narrow focus of one individual or winds up being vague.

 

Think of this question: how do you draw a picture?

Can anyone give a well-rounded answer?

 

I say study the works of those you like & find what you like about it.

[Fender Bender_dup1]

There are no rules to songwriting

If you come up with two chords that

sound interesting played against each

other..you've got a start..

The first line is the hardest ..but if

you have a great opening you can find

another line to compliment and then BUILD....

There are no rules , whatever these books

tell you.

DO you think Lennon or Dylan sat looking at books

for inspiration?..NO..it came form within.

Make up your own chords..your ears should

be your sole judge & other poeples the jury.

Lyrics is another matter & again it CANT be taught...

[whitefang]

Thanks, Fender Bender, for putting that in. Reading books can't provide nearly enough that would actually suit a wide variety of people. And thanks for posting it before the inevitable post that will provide some vague diatribe about "pentatonic scales"!

 

I swear, if I read those two words again, I'm gonna PUKE!

 

Whitefang

[SolipsismX]

I think everybody has made some good points. You should read or learn about some basic theory, but not rely on it. You should also listen to the type of music you like to see what you enjoy in music.

I think it's very important to determine what aspects of music are the most important to the type of song you are writing. For instance, if you're making a house song, you probably don't have to worry too much about harmony (since they rarely change key) and with rhythm, your time signature will probably end up in 4/4 (to make it easy to dance to). So basically in that case, all you have to worry about is making a catchy drum beat with a melodic hook.

If you are writing music for just a singer and a guitar (acoustic right?) you probably have to pay a lot more attention to harmony than anything else. Though I'm not saying it has to be done this way, most acoustic songs are made up of strummed chords or picking melodic chords as opposed to just playing a melody. So you're going to have to concentrate on the chord/key changes to make your song stand out. I have a friend who plays songs on just his acoustic guitar and his voice, but writes like he has backup parts. This tends to lead to repetitive or boring songs. I mean if you like nirvana, great. But writing a song with only 3 or 4 chords for just an acoustic guitar might not be as exciting as it is with a band.

Of course, if you're not sticking to that style, you'll have to determine what is important to the type of music you are playing. A lot of music today is rhythm and melodic driven. Harmondy doesn't seem to be as emphasized as much as it used to be. Some musicians like David Bowie, NIN and Radiohead emphasize several different aspects of music: especially timbre.

Anyway, there's always practice. Also, don't be lazy. Just because you've found a catchy chord progression or melody doesn't mean you should just loop it the entire song or do the standard verse/chorus on every song. If I find that I'm using the same tricks, I force myself to do something new. If your friend tends to strum most of his chords, try to get him to pick them or just do something new. It will keep things fresh and maybe you'll stumble on to something you wouldn't have tried before.

[PPaul]

Some famous author - Flaubert? - when asked how he writes,said "Put black on white". That is, just do it, get something - anything - down on paper. Then you have something to work with, revise, rewrite and rearrange. Or ditch it and start over with perhaps a better idea of what you are trying to say, sing, or sound like.

 

Do not fret that it isn't exactly what you want. How many pop hits and classics do you think were revised and changed around until the writer(s) were pleased enough (never totally satisfied!) to let them go? If you answered all of 'em, you're right!

 

Try this - put 3 chords together, throw in a little solo part using the notes of the chords, and add a verse of words that match the rhythm. Nonsense words will be OK as long as the rhythm and tempo sound good to you (quick! read "Beware the Jabberwock" by Lewis Carroll). Then replace the words.

 

Do one a day. In a month you will have written a lot of material you didn't think you could!

 

PPPPPPaul

[Fender Bender_dup1]

PPaul, I'm with you on this

I write & do music so I see the similarities.

Inspiration is maybe the greatest mystery in the Universe, & despite this the people who have it

seldom question the source...another mystery?

 

I will say this on rock guitar riffs

The best riffs are simple, flow

& don't involve craning the neck too much.

I'm making music on my own & believe in the

material ..So we'll just have to see

 

You gotta have your dream to keep going in

this sh1thouse world!

[G. Ratte]

Pick a key and stay in it if you want anybody else to enjoy your stuff. The diatonic system is your friend, and you'll save yourself a lot of pain if you figure it out early. A lot of brave people gave their lives to discover basic music theory; don't let them down. You can't fight human psychology.

 

Don't be boring. A song needs more than 2 parts if you're gonna be repeating them 3 times each. It's best if you do something else with the chorus and/or verse the second or third time around, 'cuz we've already heard it by then, ya know? Add some more changes, make it go down instead of up in the end, etc.

 

If somebody says "It seemed kinda long" that means it was boring.

 

Stepwise movements are good. When you make a bigger jump, go back in and hit those places you jumped over soon. Antonio Carlos Jobim (the big bossa nova cat) had this thing where he would always hit every note/chord in the key for a phrase and his stuff was really strong.

 

My tunes are always a lot better when I write them via humming and then onto paper/computer. When I come up with them on the guitar (my best instrument) I fall into cliches that my fingers are used to playing and my stuff comes out sounding too similar. Band-In-A-Box is great for songwriting, since you put in your chords and it forces you to hear your stuff in a different context/style than you're used to or expecting. It also strips away the writing distraction you get from the coolness of your own sounds. A really strong song works in just about any style.

After you write this strong song, your job is to translate it to the style you're working with.

[D_dup3]

I must disagree; drumming (or a rhythm arrangement) is often the basis of modern record production but it's inhibitive to the process of free creativity in composing.

I further suggest that even when recording that the rhythm track be adapted, as a generality, to the song as support rather than adapting the song to a preconcieved percussion track.

 

There's appealing to what's already popular & there's creating something new.

[MUMMY]

anyone recomend a good book for writing melodys?

im no beginer either but i like to read and learn how other famous songs are done..

as much as it is feeling there are RULES too.

[whitefang]

Originally posted by MUMMY:

anyone recomend a good book for writing melodys?

im no beginer either but i like to read and learn how other famous songs are done..

as much as it is feeling there are RULES too.

I'm sure there's a lot of matierial on the subject. But don't sweat it. Many have forged successful careers without any sense of melody(think Bjork!).

 

And songs needn't have more than one part. There are many good ones out there that don't have a chorus or bridge. But, don't write EVERYTHING this way. Make the lack of them fit the song.

 

One thing you might try is just writing bullshit. Three chords and nonsense lyrics until you get the hang of what the deal is. Inspiration may curiously come out of it!

 

Whitefang

[Slowly]

Songwriting tips Kcbass

[D_dup3]

Regarding Dave B.'s two posts:

[explanatory note for those looking for "Dave": Dave B., now calling himself "Very Tired", had posted a lengthy description suggesting that songwriting can be based on drum programs or loops. When I disagreed on that as a good basis for composing in general, he asked what I'd suggest instead; hence my remarks here.]

 

It still sounds to me that what you suggest is constructing or adapting a composition to fit a rhythm track. There's nothing inherently wrong with that; lots of successful music (& I mean both financially &, sometimes, creatively) is made that way. I've done it myself...but I think it's a very narrow approach to composition & ultimately (even as you suggest later) needs to be tempered to avoid formulaic qualities.

Then again some people like that.

 

As far as my suggestion, as hinted earlier I think starting with a blank slate is best. You can follow the trail that any idea leads you on.

The use of any sort of pattern(not just rhythms but design patterns) is helpful when one is a beginner but they're a bad crutch later on (especially if the cater to trends), which is why I cautioned against that.

 

I think that the idea (already suggested) of studying songs that one likes (or dislikes) is the best approach for a beginner. There are millions of ways to write & anyone who leans too much on one method is going to miss a lot of opportunities.

[boosh]

How I learned to write songs,...

 

1 Took the 20 best songs I ever heard

2 counted the bars,verses,chorusses,breaks

3 disected the harmonies and chordstructers

4 applied them as a template for my first 100 songs

 

Now it all comes natural,...

 

there's no universal way allthough most smash hits have the structure,beat and key in common.

 

Boosh

[groove guru]

Sometimes when I have a cool new chord progression on guitar,I play it for my co-writer and ask her what it makes her think of . It's amazing how much emotion is generated by just the music alone. It seems to come together this way.

[D. Gauss]

<>

 

steal, steal, steal. just ask led zep, oasis, and um, p-diddy.

 

-d. gauss