Another Hammond Drawbar Question...

[Steve Nathan]

Who are you, judging what I, or anyone else should know? You have no idea anything about me, other than I asked a question on a keyboard forum. I likely have knowledge that youre missing, yet Im not presumptuous enough to suggest your knowledge need meet my standards to be adequate. Im sorry you seem to have a need to feel better than others. Seems a bit of a shortcoming you may want to work on for yourself. Cheers.

 

You'll need thicker skin to survive here.

 

All this discussion about improv, enjoying one's instrument, getting gigs, etc. is all lovely but totally irrelevant to the posted question. The OP chose his name and even piped in to stress that he is "Still Learning". I continue to argue that he is Still NOT Learning. He's hoping someone will lend him the Cliff Notes so he can write his book report without having to actually read the book.

[AnotherScott]

but totally irrelevant to the posted question.

To the extent that the question was how to get the Roundabout quiet arpeggio sound, basically everything beyond "use just the 8' and 2 2/3' drawbars" was irrelevant to the posted question.

 

(And the allusion to possibly needing to alter it at a particular gig is not a real issue. Regardless of what anyone else is playing or what gear you're using, pulling out anther drawbar can only make the sound less like the original, not more, as you'll be introducing harmonics that were not in the original. And btw, I've played this song with a rompler organ that didn't have that registration, but had a suitably mellow sound that still worked. Capturing the exact sound is a nice bonus, but for me, not essential. 90% of it is just getting the part right. Or at least playing something interesting if you don't. ;-) )

 

He's hoping someone will lend him the Cliff Notes so he can write his book report without having to actually read the book.

That's not how his post read to me. He did put in the effort, he said "I feel Im close, but not quite, and hoping some of you here who are better at this than me can help." Heretic! ;-) Being shown the answer after you've worked on it yourself is, in fact, a way to learn, and can be, as Mike said, a light bulb moment. We don't all have to learn everything on our own from scratch, never asking for help.

 

And as for how well versed in DB work someone must be, Keith Emerson rarely tinkered with drawbars. He used a lot of just the first bunch of drawbars, pulled all the way out. The less common sound at the beginning of Karn Evil 9 1st Impression Part 1 was the stock "trumpet" preset (black Ab key). He didn't need sophisticated drawbar work to do pretty well for himself. And if you relegated DX7 work only to players who knew how to program FM, you'd have hardly ever heard a DX7. The idea that you need to know the ins and outs of sound manipulation on your instrument in order to create worthwhile music, or to be professional, or to enjoy it as a hobby, or whatever your goal may be, is unnecessarily imposing your own priorities on someone else, IMO.

[mate stubb]

And if you relegated DX7 work only to players who knew how to program FM, you'd have hardly ever heard a DX7.

 

And I think to myself

What a wonderful world

 

[Seymour Cash]

I adjust the drawbars by ear. But hey, everybody's different. If people like to use presets, I can't see why they shouldn't. I don't like seafood. Go ahead and tell me how flawed a human being I am for having that preference. LOL How far we've progressed as a species........

[analogika]

I absolutely see what youre saying, but thats not how most people work, especially classically trained keyboard players.

 

No, that's how 'an organist" works and even if you want to pretend to be one you should grasp these basics.

I fully agree.

 

However, most jobs don't call for "an organist", but merely a keyboard player.

Most people are preset players. The idea that a cutoff knob or a set of Drawbars can be part of the performance is alien to somebody whos only ever switched instruments when a different sound was needed.

 

Says who? You? The OP, the guy asking for 'the setting"? No, I disagree. Musicians worth a spit know their instrument (the rest can go **** themselves).

Okay. So every working musician who doesn't (want to) program the synth he plays can go fuck himself. Got it.

 

You must get a lot of calls.

 

Pianos have only one preset sound.

 

:|

I'll take that as a point made and not refuted.

And im many contexts, its neither necessary nor desirable to modify the sound as youre playing. If youre playing Whiter Shade of Pale with a cover band, you want THAT sound, and youre not going to be changing it.

 

Question, do you think Mathew Fisher: A) doesn't know how the Hammond DB system works, sounds, and plays?, B) doesn't change his DB settings in performance? and C) got this 'setting' from someone else?

You think he skipped all this and 'played a preset', or did HE DIAL IT UP TO FIT THE TONE, FEEL/VIBE, OF THE TUNE? What makes you think you can skip all of this?

The fact that in the context here, I'm REPRODUCING somebody else's work and not creating something of my own?

 

If somebody gives you a paint-by-numbers preset to get it, you use that.

 

Mmm, no not necessarily. More often than not I'll work with the synth/organ/etc and edit to better match given what's happening within the moment onstage/studio with the song or artists. With the Hammond for example this occurs with immediacy at any point in a song, all night long (see: knowing the hammond db system)

 

And if the paint-by-numbers doesn't work, what then?

Insist your PRESET onto the band and song because you never did/don't want to learn your instrument? Sell the organ/clone/synth? Hunt down the individual who gave you poor info? Hire a better player?

If the player is not capable of honing sounds to a level appropriate to the production, then by all means replace him/her.

 

If he's wasting time and effort on achieving something that's way beyond the scope of the job at hand, that's fine too, unless he's wasting everybody else's time and effort as well. In that case, s/he needs to be replaced as well, or reigned in to a "that'll do" level of sound design.

 

Its just one sound out of fifty youll be using that night the others being that OB-Xa preset for Jump and a DX piano thingie for Rebel Yell etc.

 

This has nothing to do with whether you should learn to manage the DB system or your synths and it's synthesis.

 

* From the vintage synths to VSTs I can't tell you how many poorly programmed "Jump" patches I've had to tweak to sound/match better.

 

** btw, I like VH, I don't have a problem playing any of their music. I know it and like it just as much as Bill Evans, Jimmy McGriff, etc etc. I also don't have an issue with db or sound/patch editing (see: knowing your instrument/gear)

 

You couldnt care less about how to program a DX7 if all you need is THAT piano for Greatest Love of All, or an OB-Xa, or a Prophet...or a Hammond.

 

First, I'm very sorry about the content of your gigs.

But no, I don't agree with what you're saying.

You mean YOU "couldn't care less" (and you're talking about knowing synths and synthesis). I understand You/OP will use the preset because that's all you know. I'm saying you/OP should know more and that these basics really won't/shouldn't take that long to learn.

That really, really depends on where you're headed. I've played in projects where DX sounds played a lot bigger role than Hammond, and I've just never bothered to delve all that deeply into FM synthesis. I'm well aware of the basics, and spent years working my way around the SY77 that I still own, but when it comes to building a sound, I'm not going to hand-craft an algorithm. I'll go preset-hunting and edit that. Same with wavetable synthesis.

 

Shame on me, I know. I'll probably get around to it at some point in my life. At the moment, I've got a bunch of other tools to get my head around, first.

 

I do get by, though.

 

Musically useful expression skills, but what pays the bills, pays the bills.

 

I don't know what this means.

 

It means that developing a good intuition for how the drawbars work and how a real organ will react to being overdriven in certain drawbar settings, and how a C3 setting will interact with fast Leslie in a mono or stereo mic setup is a wonderful thing, but in most commercial settings, there are other things more appropriate to the job to be spending time on.

[Joe Muscara]

[Steve Nathan]

The fact remains, if you genuinely want to learn sounds, you have to use your ears.

[JoJoB3]

You must get a lot of calls.

 

Yes, I do.

 

developing a good intuition for how the drawbars work and how a real organ will react to being overdriven in certain drawbar settings, and how a C3 setting will interact with fast Leslie in a mono or stereo mic setup is a wonderful thing, but in most commercial settings, there are other things more appropriate to the job to be spending time on.

 

"developing a good intuition for how...(snip)"

happens well before "the job".

[WesG]

What really pisses me off is piano players who don't even know how to tune their own instruments.

[stoken6]

Joe always finds the right thing to say...

 

Cheers, Mike

[stoken6]

 

(Hope you don't mind, Joe)

 

Cheers, Mike

[MathOfInsects]

What really pisses me off is piano players who don't even know how to tune their own instruments.

 

Or build their own benches!

[MathOfInsects]

I honestly don't see the difference between a recipe and a registration. Just because you need a recipe doesn't mean you don't know how you cook or can't make your "own" food or have amateur taste buds or are looking for a shortcut. It's literally the way every single person who cooks for a living, learned to do it: not by mastering food-science and using trial and error until they stumbled on the exact thing that someone else had already done, which they also do: but by using the steps required to get there, and then modifying from there. Even moreso when a professional cook has to make something outside their usual domain--say, pastries instead of meat. Of COURSE they are going to use a recipe. It does not take away from their skill or dedication. IMO it only strengthens it.

 

Same with drawbars, IMO, or any other instrument outside of someone's usual ken. More power to folks for expanding their skillset. The knowledge is out there, why should they have to pretend they were the first person to notice additive synthesis? NOT accessing existing knowledge seems like the damaging move; doing one's due diligence and asking experts and other sources to help them build their own knowledge base, seems like the responsible path to me. And if it prompts them to go deeper themselves, win-win, and if they only needed it for one song, win-win there too, since at least they'll get that one song "right" (to the extent that operating the mysterious machine in a way that approximates the band's expectations is a win too).

[analogika]

developing a good intuition for how the drawbars work and how a real organ will react to being overdriven in certain drawbar settings, and how a C3 setting will interact with fast Leslie in a mono or stereo mic setup is a wonderful thing, but in most commercial settings, there are other things more appropriate to the job to be spending time on.

 

"developing a good intuition for how...(snip)"

happens well before "the job".

Or it just doesn't, because the fucking job is finding appropriate presets for four hundred songs, ranging from twelve layered synths to a Fairlight sample to a Hammond to a 60s suitcase, and touching them drawbars just ain't called for, in any imaginable setting for this particular project.

 

Again: a wonderful skill to have, but if the job is reproducing somebody else's work as efficiently as possible and as closely as necessary for the money provided, your attitude just isn't appropriate to most jobs.

 

I'll always opt for getting by with a drawbar organ and a couple of e-pianos whenever I can, but if the job calls for firing off dozens of presets, I'm not gonna spend more time on fine-tuning than I have to to get the job done. (Obviously, how much fine-tuning is appropriate will depend upon the job.)

[JoJoB3]

The Job

 

The replies were to the OP...about DBs. Why on earth are you talking to me incessantly about 'your fictious project' (which I guess calls for nothing more than rifling through presets like a grade schooler)?

 

You don't feel one should learn dbs (or synthesis, or their instrument)? Great, but WE have nothing in common (or anything more to discuss).

 

 

[analogika]

I spent several years in a fictitious project. Fascinating. I hope the LAMM, the car, and the laptop that the proceeds helped buy dont just go poof now that their purchase has been divulged to have been imaginary.

 

Ill say this: I happily gave up the job after having gleaned what I could learn from it. My successors organ sound sucks (hes probably never played a real drawbar console). But its more than adequate for the job.

 

In fact, its a little shocking how much I was apparently overthinking Sound Design for that particular combo, seeing what he gets by with.

 

But then, theres a reason I quit the job reality there being what apparently completely escapes you: there are jobs where simply nobody cares.

Money on the road, paying bills, low-hanging fruit, whatever. These are jobs, there for the taking. People do, now shut up and stop hating on them.

[Joe Muscara]

 

(Hope you don't mind, Joe)

 

Cheers, Mike

[JoJoB3]

there are jobs where simply nobody cares.

 

Oh wow, you're just learning this now?

 

 

Money on the road, paying bills, low-hanging fruit, whatever. These are jobs, there for the taking. People do, now shut up and stop hating on them.

 

Well. Ummm, maybe take a vacation? Visit a new city? Take up learning the organ or synthesizer?

 

[analogika]

So who the fuck are you?

 

I take it youve been run out of town before for obvious trolling. Unsurprising. Youre obviously either not reading responses or deliberately misconstruing them, and taking zero notice of whom youre actually talking to.

 

Its kind of cute to watch you taking down armies of straw men.