Preamp Tube Experimentation

[alanfc]

Hello-

 

I am thrilled , I finally got my amp, a Rivera R-5512 and my first tube amp.

 

After alot of tweaking and learning on this amp, I find that the power tube distortion is more my thing, and that the preamp level I have rarely goes above 3 or 4. And the Master is on 6 or 7. With these settings the preamp buzz/sizzle is almost completely dialed out. But I want a - little - bit of the sizzle back. It has been suggested that I try a darker V1 tube. Could we say the following would qualify? :

 

-ECC83-S

-12AX7-EH

-new Groove Tubes's 12AX7-M

 

Would they come in to that darker category? I had chosen these three based on testimonials/posts about their "creamy" and "smooth" gain. I know these are still in the Higher gain family, but are they somehow smoother than the generic Chinese ones I have in here now ??

 

Or does Darker mean tubes in the lower gain categories?

 

any tips greatly appreciated

[Compact Diss]

but are they somehow smoother than the generic Chinese ones

 

This whole topic is what I mean when I say I never want to get into buying tube amps. Too much to wonder about for a good tone.

[alanfc]

Originally posted by Compact Diss:

but are they somehow smoother than the generic Chinese ones

 

This whole topic is what I mean when I say I never want to get into buying tube amps. Too much to wonder about for a good tone.

resistance is futile

you will be assimilated

 

(actually the trial & error and the wonder is fun for me)

[Caevan O’Shite]

Hey, congrats! Those are great amps. That one's got the "Ninja Boost" on the "Fender"-style channel, and a gain-boost on the "Marshall"-style channel, right? You can set things up so that it's like having four channels! I like the somewhat "Hiwatt"-like looks, too.

 

If you want loads of details on various tubes, and quite up-to-the-minute, as well, download Myles Rose's "Tube Primer", parts one and two; there are links to them on his posts. Also copy 'n' paste your first post there onto the "Feel free to ask Myles"-thread, as well. He's sure to have some very good, expert suggestions for you. You might even get some good use out of an S.A.G.-kit from Groove Tubes ("Special Applications Group"); Myles heads up the S.A.G. dept. there, he'd help you pick the perfect combination of preamp, function, driver/phase-inverter, and output tubes for your use of that amp. (I'd bet that he knows Paul Rivera, too!)

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by alanfc:

Hello-

 

I am thrilled , I finally got my amp, a Rivera R-5512 and my first tube amp.

 

After alot of tweaking and learning on this amp, I find that the power tube distortion is more my thing, and that the preamp level I have rarely goes above 3 or 4. And the Master is on 6 or 7. With these settings the preamp buzz/sizzle is almost completely dialed out. But I want a - little - bit of the sizzle back. It has been suggested that I try a darker V1 tube. Could we say the following would qualify? :

 

-ECC83-S

-12AX7-EH

-new Groove Tubes's 12AX7-M

 

Would they come in to that darker category? I had chosen these three based on testimonials/posts about their "creamy" and "smooth" gain. I know these are still in the Higher gain family, but are they somehow smoother than the generic Chinese ones I have in here now ??

 

Or does Darker mean tubes in the lower gain categories?

 

any tips greatly appreciated

I'm not sure what you mean. Sounds like you dialed in too much gain.

 

The GT 12AX7M is the best new preamp tube in the world right now. I don't know if it will "cure" what you describe.

 

Another route is to replace the V1 with with a NOS 5751 or 12AT7. Both offer about 70% the gain of a 12AX7. WHile it will reduce the overall gain, it will give you more control over the gain, more of a "vernier", if you will. Metalheads probably wouldn't appreciate "lower gain", however the more who should I say tasteful, might think it a gift from above.

[Duhduh]

Originally posted by alanfc:

Originally posted by Compact Diss:

but are they somehow smoother than the generic Chinese ones

 

This whole topic is what I mean when I say I never want to get into buying tube amps. Too much to wonder about for a good tone.

resistance is futile

you will be assimilated

 

(actually the trial & error and the wonder is fun for me)

Resistance is floortile. You will be laminated.

[Chipotle]

I doubt that with the preamp level on 3 master on 6 or 7, you would get any power tube distortion. Power tube distortion would occur at literally the loudest setting on the amp (both knobs). When you say "buzz/sizzle" do you mean the top end on the distortion or just distortion in general? From the way you've adjusted the preamp level, you're probably just going for a cleaner signal. If you're just talking the top end character of the distortion, you could probably experiment with the treble control and presence to arrive at a different character to the top end. I find a little buzz/sizzle on the sound to be advantageous in a band context. Hopefully you can learn to dial it in and out depending on situation.

 

I also believe in "break-in" of new gear. After about 20 hours of use (passing signal through all the capacitors, resistors, wires, etc.) the top end will likely mellow a bit.

 

Congratulations on the new amp. I think you'll enjoy it and hopefully enjoy the "tube rolling" aspect of it, as well.

[alanfc]

-

Thanks for the ideas everyone-

 

Caevan- yes this is that model with all those options. Actually Myles' tube amp primer is where I got some of this info on preamp tube character. I will look into these tube sets, I think there's a Marshall-style one that I'd be interested in.

 

Jazz Guitar- So in the tube world, Darker means lower gain? This may be what I am looking for. Those you mention are from the lower gain family I was thinking of. The more control over gain the better, plus I don't find myself needing more distortion. Almost like Gilmour & Floyd "Young Lust" and Joe Walsh type gain are what I'm looking for. Maybe a little Eddie VH every once in a while.

 

Chipotle- I have been able to dial out the buzziness by using the Presence for treble and putting the actual channel/preamp treble at near zero. I'm seeing a distinct difference between preamp distorion (buzzy) and power amp distortion. I've been playing around with putting the preamp volume down to zero and bringing it back up to 2, just to let sound through. Then with the master at 6-7-8 I'm getting nice meaty overdrive. So I =think= I'm getting it. Also, this amp was made in 1993. I need to talk to the previous owner and see what he'd done with it recently. If its all old 1993 stuff I may take it in and have the whole thing re-tubed and re-biased. Maybe look at one of those Groove Tube sets that Caevan was talking about.

 

I also think I have very mediocre pickups and I don't even want to tell you what kind of guitar I have (it was an impulse buy)....

I'm looking into a couple of the cool handmade shops/guys that have humbuckers that can split into a convincing (not necessarily perfect) single coil.

 

thanks again

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by alanfc:

-

Thanks for the ideas everyone-

 

Caevan- yes this is that model with all those options. Actually Myles' tube amp primer is where I got some of this info on preamp tube character. I will look into these tube sets, I think there's a Marshall-style one that I'd be interested in.

 

Jazz Guitar- So in the tube world, Darker means lower gain? This may be what I am looking for. Those you mention are from the lower gain family I was thinking of. The more control over gain the better, plus I don't find myself needing more distortion. Almost like Gilmour & Floyd "Young Lust" and Joe Walsh type gain are what I'm looking for. Maybe a little Eddie VH every once in a while.

 

Chipotle- I have been able to dial out the buzziness by using the Presence for treble and putting the actual channel/preamp treble at near zero. I'm seeing a distinct difference between preamp distorion (buzzy) and power amp distortion. I've been playing around with putting the preamp volume down to zero and bringing it back up to 2, just to let sound through. Then with the master at 6-7-8 I'm getting nice meaty overdrive. So I =think= I'm getting it. Also, this amp was made in 1993. I need to talk to the previous owner and see what he'd done with it recently. If its all old 1993 stuff I may take it in and have the whole thing re-tubed and re-biased. Maybe look at one of those Groove Tube sets that Caevan was talking about.

 

I also think I have very mediocre pickups and I don't even want to tell you what kind of guitar I have (it was an impulse buy)....

I'm looking into a couple of the cool handmade shops/guys that have humbuckers that can split into a convincing (not necessarily perfect) single coil.

 

thanks again

What I meant with the 5751 or 12AT7, you might experience a tad less preamp buzzyness.

 

"Warm?" "Dark"? Usually implies rolled off high frequencies. "Brighter" means less roll off.

 

Myles has lots of info, like 5881s sounding "darker" I believe than 6L6s.

[Caevan O’Shite]

How much do you use your guitar's volume control(s)? Get a fairly overdriven but still dynamically sensitive sound from your amp's settings, then use the volume on the guitar to clean up some and roll 'em back up and hit those boosts for leads.

 

You might get more of what you want with different driver/phase-inverter and output tubes, as well as swapping preamp tubes. Maybe a lower-gain/higher-current phase-inverter tube would give you a more 'fine-tunable' dynamic range of output-distortion?

 

I could be wrong, but I think some of those David Gilmour tones you cite involved a pedal in front of a Fender amp; also, more than likely, a Fender Strat or Tele. Which begs the question...

 

...what guitar, and more specifically, what kind of pickups are you playing through that Rivera? Single coils will give you more attack and bite and dynamic range than humbuckers. Of course, I particularly like P-90 "soapbar" style pickups, they have a lot of the best of both worlds.

[alanfc]

-

Jazz- since I was here last I've been working on this alot and I think I could definitely use something with less gain like you're talking about. I finally have reached an acceptable sound for recording- given my mic position, SM-57 mic, isolation box,and amp settings. So I'm glad about that. I've changed things around a bit since I last wrote, so my Master is on 4-5 and my preamp knob is on 4 now-any higher gain is sucking the life out of the punches and details I'm doing. With the Master any higher I have vibrating apartment building/neighbor problems, even with my double isolation boxes. If the lower gain tubes have 30% or so less gain and the other benefits you mentioned earlier, I'm going for it.

 

Caevan- my guitar, OY --- my guitar. It was an impulse buy but I need to make it work cuz I just blew my dough on the amp. Its a Shecter 006 Elite with a Les Paul type tailpiece and a glued-in neck. It actually is very resonant and loud without an amp ! Alot of low end, very light. I'm starting to get really used to it. The pickups are the "Duncan Designed" ones that have the EMG style covers on them. I called Schecter one time and they said "uh,, I think its a HB 101 or HB 103". Which according to this guy is like a Duncan Jeff Beck or something. I'm going to invest in a new pickup before I give up the guitar. Probably getting one of these handmade ones from SK Guitar, a Dualtone or Dualtone II. Wired to my wishes (like I even know) and a humbucker splittable to a single coil. Gets really good reviews.

I think I've got everything figured out for now, and I'm especially glad I've got the amp producing every whack and scrape and accent I play, without being too dry. Just the right amount of liquidity without too much muddy gain.

[Caevan O’Shite]

"OY --- my guitar. It was an impulse buy but I need to make it work cuz I just blew my dough on the amp. Its a Shecter 006 Elite with a Les Paul type tailpiece and a glued-in neck."

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pics/products/51/513057.jpg

Nice!

 

You make it sound like an alibi guitar or something! Those are pretty cool guitars, though as with any you can go farthest by picking and choosing amongst several of the same brand and even model. Any Schecters that I've picked up and played in stores were good guitars. I'd say it was money wisely spent!

 

You should spend some time at least lurking around the various forums at the Les Paul Forum, there's been a LOT of discussion there concerning dual HB set-ups and pots and caps and all. It would all apply to your Scecter, too, after all!

 

I would still pick Myles' brain on full tube compliments for your amp, though! Tell him exactly, precisely, and succinctly what you want to get out of the amp, and mention that you are recording, and how. He'll hook you right up!

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by alanfc:

-

Jazz- since I was here last I've been working on this alot and I think I could definitely use something with less gain like you're talking about. I finally have reached an acceptable sound for recording- given my mic position, SM-57 mic, isolation box,and amp settings. So I'm glad about that. I've changed things around a bit since I last wrote, so my Master is on 4-5 and my preamp knob is on 4 now-any higher gain is sucking the life out of the punches and details I'm doing. With the Master any higher I have vibrating apartment building/neighbor problems, even with my double isolation boxes. If the lower gain tubes have 30% or so less gain and the other benefits you mentioned earlier, I'm going for it.

Hey, give it a shot, a NOS 5751 goes for in the $10 to $15 range. Same with 12AT7s.

[alanfc]

Originally posted by Caevan O'Shite:

 

You make it sound like an alibi guitar or something! Those are pretty cool guitars, though as with any you can go farthest by picking and choosing amongst several of the same brand and even model. Any Schecters that I've picked up and played in stores were good guitars. I'd say it was money wisely spent!

 

Yeah mine has a bit different tailpiece, with a slab of steel bolted on (like Les Paul) to hold the strings. The ones in your picture are the newer version and has those holes in the body I assume for inserting strings through the back. Mine is the blacker of the two. OK so I won't think its a P.O.S. I'm still mad about the jumbo frets though. I didn't really know what they were. Now I tune down a half step and the sharpness problem with pressing too hard with the jumbos has mostly gone away.

[jetboy]

Alan,

 

tone and the search for it is elusive as you recently found. Lots of variables and the descriptions are more like wine tasting than listening. Makes it that much more confounding.

 

As for power tube distortion, that only comes from driving the power tubes, that means having the master turned way up and then turning the volume/gain up to suit your tonal needs. That unfortunately means mucho volume. Using an ISO box is a good solution, an attenuator is another and if one doesnt do it both together may.

 

a lower gain tube like jazz said is also a way to get a little less overall volume, more control over the tone and less preamp buzz

[Teahead]

Myles recommended new pre-amp tubes for a few specific positions in my AC30. It made a vast improvement over the stock chinese tubes that it came supplied with.

 

Check with Bob at eurotubes as he comes with the Myles seal of approval. Great prices and well selected tubes. The guy looks to be a total tube freak, check out the picture of him!

 

Tea.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by alanfc:

"...the sharpness problem with pressing too hard with the jumbos has mostly gone away."

Aaahhh.... , ya gotta cultivate that "light touch" on the fretnoard, or at least a lighter touch. Not only reduces sharp intonation, but frees your hands and fingers up when their muscles and tendons and all are more relaxed.

[alanfc]

hey-

 

So I'm waiting for my new tubes to come now. After alot of researching I chose the following, we'll see how it all works. This will be fun:

 

V1 GT 12ax7-M Groove Tube's Mullard clone (good reviews "like butta"?)

 

V2 12ax7 EH (for a little smooth, don't want in V1, but who knows)

 

V3-V4 12ax7 Chinese R9 (utility)

 

V5 NOS GE Jan 5751 (for the phase inverter, less gain of course than 12ax7 and therefore tighter overall sound I'm told, not as dark as 12AT7 would be)

 

I'll report back once I try them next week