SONAR questions

[Chip McDonald]

Downloaded the demo... I'm running an 845 chipset Intel mb with 512 mb memory Celeron 1.8 ghz 3 UDMA 100 drives around 80 gigs each, probably about half that free on each drive, XP, MOTU 24I/O (424 card): 1) I had to set the the buffer settings all the way to "safe" to keep it from clicking while recording. So my question is - what assurance to I have that it's not *still* doing "something" to the recording (since I've only just casually checked it out a moment ago)? 2) The look is typical old school Cakewalk cluttered disaster: why is the dingbat track arm button not only small, but not even highlighted? Can I make this larger? 3) Is there a way to make the default when you right click to "insert" and audio be set to "maximize strip"? 4) Is there a way of making it so that I can highlight wave files I want deleted, then right click to delete all of them at once - without the usual Cakewalk hoop-jumping? 5) Can you rename/default the input channel assignments? (instead of "motu left 1", etc. 6) Can you make the transport control buttons larger? Why are the buttons you will use the most - track arm, transport controls - teeny tiny??? 7) Is there a way you can make it so that the waveform is visible when you drag a wave file - so you can visibly line it up with another while dragging? If this isn't possible, it's useless... Ack.

[Anderton]

<<1] I had to set the the buffer settings all the way to "safe" to keep it from clicking while recording. So my question is - what assurance to I have that it's not *still* doing "something" to the recording [since I've only just casually checked it out a moment ago]?>> Have you run the WAV profiler? That's essential. You should not be getting clicking with that type of a setup...I hope you don't have a PCI video card, they really mess with audio cards. Trying turning off video acceleration to see if that helps. I'm getting 1.5 ms latency without clicks, so I know it's possible . <<2] The look is typical old school Cakewalk cluttered disaster: why is the dingbat track arm button not only small, but not even highlighted? Can I make this larger?>> See my reply about the transport button size. Also note that the console view Record buttons are bigger. <<3] Is there a way to make the default when you right click to "insert" and audio be set to "maximize strip"?>> Not sure what you mean. <<4] Is there a way of making it so that I can highlight wave files I want deleted, then right click to delete all of them at once - without the usual Cakewalk hoop-jumping?>> Ctrl-click or draw a rectangle around the ones you want to delete, then right-click > delete. Don't forget the Split command for when you just want to delete part of a file. <<5] Can you rename/default the input channel assignments? [instead of "motu left 1", etc.]>> I don't think so. They're tied in with the drivers. <<6] Can you make the transport control buttons larger? Why are the buttons you will use the most - track arm, transport controls - teeny tiny???>> Check into the key bindings feature or use keyboard commands!! That's one of Sonar's best features, you can control anything with anything. You'll find using QWERTY or AGO keyboard keys to control functions is much faster than using a mouse. Next step up is something like an SAC 2.2, Mackie Control, Event EZBus, etc. <<7] Is there a way you can make it so that the waveform is visible when you drag a wave file - so you can visibly line it up with another while dragging? >> No, but I just slip-edit the waveform to the EXACT sample (if needed), and line that up with the reference or snap point. Then if needed, I move the slip edit point out to where it was. This sort of like using the Q-Point approach in Cubase VST. Hope this helps.

[Alndln]

[quote][b] I had to set the the buffer settings all the way to "safe" to keep it from clicking while recording. So my question is - what assurance to I have that it's not *still* doing "something" to the recording (since I've only just casually checked it out a moment ago)?[/b][/quote]Could be a few things.I'm not sure if the demo is v. 2.2 but if it's not there won't be ASIO driver support,in which case you need either Win 2K or XP and WDM drivers installed.Make sure the buffer of your Motu is set to around 128 samples which is good for around 2.9ms.Then go to C:/program files/Cakewalk/Sonar and click on the aud .ini,and darken and delete everything related to your card(half way down)and hit save.The next time you open Sonar it will re-profile correctly.Also I hear the Motu ASIO drivers with Sonar 2.2 aren't working well yet,so you'll need Win 2K/XP and WDM drivers for good low latencey performance with Sonar. [quote][b]7) Is there a way you can make it so that the waveform is visible when you drag a wave file - so you can visibly line it up with another while dragging? If this isn't possible, it's useless... [/b][/quote]Don't forget about the timing grid(square grid like object on top of track pane),when it's set to on(in)you can click the arrow next to it to set your timing options for dragging from 1 measure to 32nd notes,or leave the grid out to move or nudge things by feel.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Anderton: [b]Have you run the WAV profiler?[/b][/quote]Yep, on install and after as well... [b]clicking with that type of a setup...I hope you don't have a PCI video card, they really mess [/b] Nah, AGP. [b]with audio cards. Trying turning off video acceleration to see if that helps.[/b] Tried that.. [b]I'm getting 1.5 ms latency without clicks, so I know it's possible .[/b] Well, like I said it *seems* like it's not clicking now, but my concern is that it seems so "fragile" - how do I know it's not glitching on a smaller (possibly cumulative, or possibly more obvious "after the fact") scale, and how do I know it won't collapse under a bigger task? (I only tested it recording 4 tracks at once...) [b]<<3] Is there a way to make the default when you right click to "insert" and audio be set to "maximize strip"?>> Not sure what you mean.[/b] I suppose I could make a template that has say 24 audio tracks preselected... but what I meant was, if you right clicking on the left to insert a "new audio track", it first comes up *minimized*.... WHICH THEN means you have to MAXIMIZE it to assign your inputs... [b]Ctrl-click or draw a rectangle around the ones you want to delete, then right-click > delete. Don't forget the Split command for when you just want to delete part of a file.[/b] Hmm. The situation I'm thinking of is when I've recorded say 3 separate takes, and I know I want to delete say the 2nd one; in Cool Edit you just right click and select "delete". I think I remember the box thing from an olllld version of CW, but... hmm. [b]<<5] Can you rename/default the input channel assignments? [instead of "motu left 1", etc.]>> I don't think so. They're tied in with the drivers.[/b] I got the MOTU 24I/O (thanks Chuck..) so I can leave all of my gear hooked up to it 24/7 - in Cubase SX you can name the input sources ("Grace preamp" "drum machine left" etc.) like a patchbay... with 24 ins in Cakewalk it's a list from the top of the screen to the bottom... [b]Check into the key bindings feature or use keyboard commands!! [/b] "yeah but" - if I'm already using the mouse I don't want to let go and look down for the right keyboard button. On that note, though: do you know if it's possible to plug in a USB keyboard - a *second* one - to use for dedicated transport controls/features? [b]control anything with anything. You'll find using QWERTY or AGO keyboard keys to control functions is much faster than using a mouse.[/b] I like using the space bar to stop, but if I'm mousing around it seems more natural not to have to re-look on the keyboard (to me). [b]No, but I just slip-edit the waveform to the EXACT sample (if needed), and line that up with the reference or snap point. Then if needed, I move the slip edit point out to where it was. [/b] Uhg. (sorry) [b]This sort of like using the Q-Point approach in Cubase VST.[/b] Triple "uhg". Thanks for your assistance.... BTW - I had to FTP the demo, their link wouldn't work (file not found)in Opera, or Netscrape 6...

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Alndln Opteron: [b]but if it's not there won't be ASIO driver support,in which case you need either Win 2K or XP and WDM drivers installed.[/b][/quote]Yeah, it's 2.2. I presumed it was using WDM, I'll have to check that. [b]Make sure the buffer of your Motu is set to around 128 samples which is good for around 2.9ms.Then go to C:/program [/b] Yeah, I checked high and low buffer sizes... Like I said, I got it to work, but my concern is that I don't know the parameters for how much I can push it. In other words - it's not clicking with 4 ins, but what if I want to record a full kit, is it going to glitch? Is it *still* glitching, but in a tinier increment...? [b]Don't forget about the timing grid(square grid like object on top of track pane),when it's set to on(in)you can click the arrow next to it to set your timing options for dragging from 1 measure to 32nd notes,or leave the grid out to move or nudge things by feel.[/b] Well... I don't do midi, so for all purposes it's freewheeling... so I have to see the waveform if I'm going to move something around, unless I want to use markers, which is annoying.. Thanks

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [QBWell... I don't do midi, so for all purposes it's freewheeling... [/QB][/quote]Not so,the timing grid is for .wav clips as well.You can either lock them into an exact resolution or freewheel.I'm not sure what you mean by not seeing your .wav files though.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Alndln Opteron: [b] [quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [QBWell... I don't do midi, so for all purposes it's freewheeling... [/b][/quote]Not so,the timing grid is for .wav clips as well.You can either lock them into an exact resolution or freewheel.I'm not sure what you mean by not seeing your .wav files though.[/QB][/quote]The timing grid doesn't help anything - that presumes you want everything matched to some metronomic ideal. Let's say I want to scoot a tom hit forward to match a decellerando at the end of a song matched to a scratch guitar track; in CEP I can just copy in the drum hit and scoot it over until it matches the part, which is real easy to do because I can visually match the waveform. That would be a ridiculous pain otherwise.

[philbo_Tangent]

[/QUOTE]The timing grid doesn't help anything - that presumes you want everything matched to some metronomic ideal. Let's say I want to scoot a tom hit forward to match a decellerando at the end of a song matched to a scratch guitar track; in CEP I can just copy in the drum hit and scoot it over until it matches the part, which is real easy to do because I can visually match the waveform. That would be a ridiculous pain otherwise.[/QB][/QUOTE] Here's what I do: 1) Select both the track to be edited & the reference track (the one that shows correct timing) and hit 'H' so only those tracks are up. 2) Put the 'current position cursor' (vertical line) on the place where you want the moved part to end up. 3) Select & move the part Alt-Left-click & drag to select, then left-click on the selected area & drag it so the part you want lined up lands where the vertical line cursor is. 4) Hit 'U' to return the view back to its previous state.

[Alndln]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b]in CEP I can just copy in the drum hit and scoot it over until it matches the part, which is real easy to do because I can visually match the waveform. That would be a ridiculous pain otherwise.[/b][/quote]You can do the same thing in Sonar,just hold down the Alt key and move the clip anywhere you want,if you want it to lock in at an exact resolution,press the grid "in" and choose a resolution,if not,leave it out.

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by philbo_Tangent: [b]Here's what I do: 1) Select both the track to be edited & the reference track (the one that shows correct timing) and hit 'H' so only those tracks are up. 2) Put the 'current position cursor' (vertical line) on the place where you want the moved part to end up. 3) Select & move the part Alt-Left-click & drag to select, then left-click on the selected area & drag it so the part you want lined up lands where the vertical line cursor is. 4) Hit 'U' to return the view back to its previous state.[/b][/quote]Okkkkk.... how do you make sure you're lining the part of the wave you're moving to the wave that you have the position cursor at? Isn't that presuming you want to line up the beginning of the *file* to the point you've specified, instead of a point in the wave file itself? "left click alt H drag vertical curson U previous state"... yikes. In CEP you just drag it until it's lined up....

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Alndln Opteron: [b]You can do the same thing in Sonar,just hold down the Alt key and move the clip anywhere you want,if you want it to lock in at an exact resolution,press the grid "in" and choose a resolution,if not,leave it out.[/b][/quote]That doesn't work - *you can't see the waveform as you move it*, so you can't line the attack of one up with the attack of another. Timing grids - what is the note value of a half cycle of a kick drum....?

[Mark LaCoste]

Excellent, Philbo! (pardon my popping in) You've just saved me from maybe an hour's research trying to find a direct wayt to do this. More likely, I would have found some tedious method and not bothered to learn a "right" way. But here is a further question, related to the "you can't see the wave while you drag it" question; Craig mentioned the use of slip editing to size the clip just the right, but sometimes I need to align to a peak that's not at the very beginning of the clip. Isn't there a way to set an anchor point wherever you want to ? For instance, I may need to align a vocal phrase - a word in the middle of it - to a drum hit on a different track. Can you help?

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Rubber Lizard Studios: [b]but sometimes I need to align to a peak that's not at the very beginning of the clip. Isn't there a way to set an anchor point wherever you want to ? For instance, I may need to align a vocal phrase - a word in the middle of it - to a drum hit on a different track. Can you help?[/b][/quote]Isn't this what I asked.....?

[Mark LaCoste]

Yes, I think it IS what you asked. I suspect there is a really easy way to do this. Gotta be. Last weekend a friend of mine recorded some piano parts at a studio in Eugene, Oregon. Mostly it was chords and fills. The approach was to do several takes and comp a track together. The way they work at that studio is to track to tape, dump to pro tools for edits, then dump back to tape (don't ask me why, but he does get good results). Billy, the owner, would nudge a track by some tiny amount and suddenly the whole thing would gel. My friend thought the track sounded fine before nudging but it suddenly felt way better with Billy's timing corrections. He would ask Billy "How did you HEAR that?". I know this kind of edit is common, so there gotta be a not-tedious way to get it done in SONAR. Right?

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Rubber Lizard Studios: [b] Billy, the owner, would nudge a track by some tiny amount and suddenly the whole thing would gel. [/b][/quote]Well... you can probably select a track and nudge it over quickly, look at it when the screen redraws, nudge, look, nudge look... but I'd rather just drag while seeing. He was probably scooting the track over by an offset equal to the latency of his sound card, presuming you played to a click or some other pre-recorded source.

[Erik Nygaard]

[quote]Originally posted by Rubber Lizard Studios: [b]My friend thought the track sounded fine before nudging but it suddenly felt way better with Billy's timing corrections. He would ask Billy "How did you HEAR that?". I know this kind of edit is common, so there gotta be a not-tedious way to get it done in SONAR. Right?[/b][/quote]I use this often with bass vs drums where you can judge wither track a bit forward or backward according to the feel you are wanting. Normally I like to have the bass on the bit and the drums very slightly after. Another benefit is that the kick and the bass does not hit at the same time thus increasing headroom a bit as well.

[Mark LaCoste]

Hey Chip! It's me again... Mark. I did a little research, asked around, and played with Sonar. While the "drag while seeing" concept (copyright Chip McDonald) would make the most sense and deserves a spot on the Sonar Wish List, I can suggest a way to do track alignments that's gonna work for me. Maybe for you too. First, as suggested by Craig, you set the Now time to the place you want to align to. Then grab the clip/track you want to move. Grab it by the exact spot you want to align, then drag until the cursor is right on the Now line and drop it. There are keyboard shortcuts that make the process smoother. Hit T to make the cursor into the selection or grabber cursor. C turns it into the split tool. I go back and forth between these a lot. Hold down Z while selecting a piece of a track and that piece will expand to fill the view. Maybe you're a mouser who won't like keyboard shortcuts, but I think they're great. Also, Ctrl + arrow keys zoom in and out. I hope this was helpful. These were annoyances to me so it's good that I finally took the time to research them. -mark

[philbo_Tangent]

[quote]Originally posted by Rubber Lizard Studios: [b] First, as suggested by Craig, you set the Now time to the place you want to align to. Then grab the clip/track you want to move. Grab it by the exact spot you want to align, then drag until the cursor is right on the Now line and drop it. -mark[/b][/quote]This is a lot more concise way of saying what I meant in my first message... :rolleyes:

[philbo_Tangent]

[quote]Originally posted by Chip McDonald: [b][QUOTE]Originally posted by philbo_Tangent: [qb] "left click alt H drag vertical curson U previous state"... yikes. In CEP you just drag it until it's lined up....[/b][/quote]Geez, I *always* edit with 1 hand on the mouse & the other on the keyboard. Using the mouse alone is like running with only one leg... You can do it, but it's a hell of a lot slower... ;)