Guitar Home Recording

[John Brown]

I always get twee and or fuzzed/noisy guitars when I record at home(on 4 track cassette, or into the computer). What are some of the best things for guitar recording? Either in good mics, or good direct Input equiptment. And is there anything that I should really be doing that I'm probably not? Thanks

 

Kronus

[Stan_Frenchie]

I always get twee and or fuzzed/noisy guitars when I record at home(on 4 track cassette, or into the computer). What are some of the best things for guitar recording? Either in good mics, or good direct Input equiptment. And is there anything that I should really be doing that I'm probably not? Thanks

 

Kronus

Hi,

 

Most recorders (and soundcards) expect a "line level" signal from a low impedance source, your guitar pick-ups (and many microphones) are high impedance device with a level way beyond line level ... That's likely the cause of your problems.

 

There are many solutions depending on your budget and needs, from a cheap effect box or preamp with line level output, to the effect loop send of a good amp, with things like a Pod, V-Amp or DG Stomp in-between.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bests.

 

Stan.

 

PS : Please describe you gear more precisely (electric guitar, electro-accoustic, miked accoustic ?)

[AlChuck]

I swear by my POD for home recording of guitars. I'm sure you can get good results with any of the similar products -- Johnson J-Station, Yamaha DG-Stomp, etc.

[Wickerman]

Well, my set up is simple. Guitar amp, miced, into a ten channel mixer (reasonable levels set), into computer running Cool Edit Pro 2.0 (free 30 day FULL demo from downloads.com) For bass, direct line out into the mixer, ect. Vocals: Mic, mixer, computer. Easy as kake. Sounds good, no problems with over distortion or fuzz from guitar (had that problem with other programs) good quality, easy... I'm in the process of recording a CD for bandmates learning new material...

[Wow]

??

[Nollykin]

I use similar to wickerman, and I strongly reccomend it. Micing your amp, and putting that mic symbol into a cheap mixer ( from behringer, or phonic for example) with decent mic pre's will get you the most versatile, and probably the best cheap home alternative.

 

PODS are good, but there are 2 downfalls: Cost, and the fact that you can only record guitar with them. With a good mic and mixer, you can record almost any instrument onto your comp. Using something like N-Tracks or Protools on your comp can put that all together - though it aint the software that makes it sound good - its the mixer and the mic.

 

I spent AGES researching this - and really, most people will agree that for home recording this is the best way. I'm recording a demo CD for my band with it and it sounds really really good - studio quality, maybe a little less. Demo quality. tis good.

 

Soundcards alone simply dont have the guts to interpret a guitar signal or mic signal well - the preamps wont cut the cheese. So, do yourself a favour, and buy a mixer. Your signal will love you for it

 

Nolly

 

PS: You okay there, C.M.? Need a hand?

[henryrobinett]

For home recording I use my amp whenever possible. My current fav recording amp is an old Seymour Duncan Convertible. I use either a Royer 121 ribbon or a 57. I use a really nice pre; the Millennia HV-3 is my pre of choice. Sometimes I'll use the pre in the Metric Halo 2882 that serves as my I/O. I often use the RNC. This sounds great. I'm going into DP. For more quiet late night stuff I have a hardware rack mount Sansamp that's OK in a pinch. I can always Reamp it.

 

This is a great home set up. I can do most serious guitar tracks at home this way. When I go to our real studio not too much varies except that I have more mic and pre choices, but often my choices are the same.

[John Brown]

I take it that you guys mean some kind of powered mixer? I am pretty new to recording. Also what is the pest thing for pedals and line buzziness? Will a noise supressor really work well? or do I want a noise Gate? I am not exactly sure of the difference. Thanks again.

[Stan_Frenchie]

I take it that you guys mean some kind of powered mixer? I am pretty new to recording. Also what is the pest thing for pedals and line buzziness? Will a noise supressor really work well? or do I want a noise Gate? I am not exactly sure of the difference. Thanks again.

Hi,

 

Yes you need some kind of powered device, be it a mixer, a preamp, an amp modeler : simply put guitar p.u. and many mikes doesn't have sufficient power to supply your recorder or soundcard with a good signal, so you must amplify them and therefore need some kind of powered preamp (passive i.e. non powered devices can only bring a signal power down, this is unfortunate as otherwise we would have free energy , but that's a fact of life).

 

Basically a noise gate is a signal processor the output of which will stay silent (or closed) as long as the input signal is under a certain level (or threshold), it is intended to kill the low level noises (hum, electrical interferences ...), think of it as an on/off switch which switches on only when the signal is strong enough to mask the noise and won't be of much help in your case.

 

Noise suppressors follow the same philosophy but can usually be tweaked to kill only certain type of noise (for instance the 60Hz hum from power lines), won't help you either until you get a strong enough signal from a preamp.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Stan.

[John Brown]

Thanks for all of the advice. I have one more question. Is Gemini a respectable brand name for a mixer? The local pawn shop has several, along with a blue dog, and I was just wondering if they are worth the time. Thanks again.

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by John Brown:

Thanks for all of the advice. I have one more question. Is Gemini a respectable brand name for a mixer? The local pawn shop has several, along with a blue dog, and I was just wondering if they are worth the time. Thanks again.

Uh what models & how much????

[John Brown]

I can't remember exactly, lol but I think it was a PMX 120?, and a PMX 60? and another bigger one. They all only had a left and right channel I believe (no 10-channel ones) and they were from $60-$110, if that helps. Thanks.

[Wickerman]

Actually, you don't need a powered mixer. If you mic your amp and put that into a mixer that has plenty for recording. It doesn't take an excessively large signal to record onto your computer.

 

Also, software makes a HUGE difference. EG: I downloaded a prog (Cool Edit '96) and the sound quality was TERRIBLE. I bought Cool Edit Pro V2.0 and it's a perfect representation of my amp... Software does indeed matter...

[Nollykin]

http://www.behringer.com/02_products/index.cfm?mid=2&smid=3&lang=eng

 

Look at the mixing consoles there, like the MX602, MX802, and the MXB1002 (My mixer, its a beauty). Theyre cheap, and they make your signals amazing - like wick said, you dont need a powered one. Its beautiful what you can do with one of these, connected to the direct input of your soundcard (the soundblaster live! value has one and is a good enough card for home recording) will increase your recording quality significantly. With a mic like the Shure SM58, or similar, you can get sounds that rival production quality - home production quality.

 

Like wickerman said, you can use unpowered mixers... Though I dont know a lot about the differences between powered and unpowered - all I know is what I have is great.

 

check out this too:

 

http://www.phonic.com/product.htm

 

The MM1202 and MM1002 are similar to the MX802 and MX602 by behringer - and some would say theyre better - though I dont know much difference really. I settled for the behringer because it was easier to find.

 

Basically - the idea of a mixer is a preamp for your mic - to amplify and clear the sound quality so that it gets fed into the soundcard better. That helps your computer deal and removes a lot of "noise" (static).

 

Powered mixers are good - but unnessecary really - for home recording. when you get into professional stuff, sure. But really you dont need it.

 

Mic, Mixer, Soundcard. Theyre the 3 things you should look into. For basic home recording of course.

 

Nolly

[Wickerman]

Nolly, you've got the same mixer as me? All right bro! That lil Behringer 10 channel works wonders. In a week or two my band is planning to come over, hook an old eight channel Shure mic level mixer into the Behringer to mix drum mics, then a channel for vocal mic, mic'ed guitar cabs x2 and line out from my bass... We'll have to use two Imp converters but who cares. Should be fun. My little mini studio is already a mess... I've got a 10 track mixer hooked into my computer which has a multi track prog, then I've got my guitar and bass amps (stacked, have been since before I was even recording. Convenient), mics, 2 acoustics, three electrics, two basses, keyboard across the room... Actually, it's in an adjoined room... good stuff. I've even got a drum machine if I want. Too bad I'm so anal that unless a track is PERFECT I blow it away. I record for twenty minutes, keep four. I'll make one little mistake, kill the track. Dislike the guitar or bass tone, kill that track... It'll take me about twenty minutes for each track. Guitar, bass, lead guitar on a couple, vocals... Takes a while to get me satisfied. It'd be SO much easier if other people were doing it. I wouldn't care if THEY messed up.

[Dak Lander]

Nolly, Wick, You guys have the right stuff for a startup. Learn everything you can about what you have & the capabilities. Once you have that nailed you can move up with not a backward glance.

I'm still using about the same stuff & doing fine. The one thing I'd do, as soon as you can afford, is upgrade the mics. Then you can go from there & upgrade the soundcard, add an inline compressor, eq & what ever...

It is nice to have the capability to lay down multiple tracks at the same time but not necessary for home work.

Good job guys, I'll be itchin' to hear some samples.

[michael saulnier]

Dak,

 

Since you mentioned mic's, and I know you like your Marshall Condenser...

 

Which model do you have?

 

I noticed that Marshall has a "bundle" where they're including both the MXL 2001 and the MXL603S... (the first is a large diaphram made for vocals, instruments... the other a small diaphram made for overheads, acoustic guitar and so on...) musiciansfriend and others have these for about $150... sounds like a good deal and may be a great "step up" for someone who doesn't have mic's of these types.

 

What 'ya think?

 

guitplayer

[michael saulnier]

Originally posted by John Brown:

I always get twee and or fuzzed/noisy guitars when I record at home(on 4 track cassette, or into the computer). What are some of the best things for guitar recording? Either in good mics, or good direct Input equiptment. And is there anything that I should really be doing that I'm probably not? Thanks

 

Kronus

Ah, the quest for great recorded tone.

 

I've been trying to solve this problem myself... with mixed results.

 

How the "pros" do it is to use a great mic,(or even an SM57), or two mics... one close the other a bit father away to create "space", on a great sounding amp, in a great sounding room with great mic pre's, at whatever volume sound best.

 

SO let's say you don't have:

- great mics

- two great mics

- a great sounding amp

- great mic pre

- a place to play loud enough for your amp to sound great

 

So what can you do?

 

Well, it's tempting to try the emulators. Pod, Johnson, V-amp, Roland, Digitech... they all are OK, but don't REALLY sound as good as most would like. You can argue this all you want... TO ME, it doesn't cut it...

 

Then there are direct recording pre-amps... Sans amp, Mesa, Marshall... by themselves they also don't quite convince. To my ears, I can find decent clean tones, but overdriven... no... typically to "buzzy" sounding.

 

Then there are the speaker simulators. I'm about to try the Palmer PDI-09 or the PGA-04. The first, $120 is a device that fits between the amp and the speaker... but you HAVE to use the speaker. The PGA-04, $460, has a built-in load so you can have it totally quiet...

 

There's also the speaker isolation idea. I recently bought a Randall Iso box that should allow me to have great "cranked" tone at any volume without disturbing the family and neighbors...

 

I'll post again once I've checked this out!

 

guitplayer

[Mile]

And now something completely different. Well, not completely

I'm using MX 1604a from Behringer. Good, reliable and cheap mixing console. I have Terratec EWX 24/96 sound card connected to MX 1604a. I record everything to Cubase SX. Few weeks ago I got Amplitube (VST plugin). I go direct into Behringer with my guitar. Turn on Amplitube on inserts and that's it...

It's simulation similar to POD but it's great. You don't have to have amp anywhere near the house or, even worse, flat

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by guitplayer:

Dak,

 

Since you mentioned mic's, and I know you like your Marshall Condenser...

 

Which model do you have?

 

I noticed that Marshall has a "bundle" where they're including both the MXL 2001 and the MXL603S... (the first is a large diaphram made for vocals, instruments... the other a small diaphram made for overheads, acoustic guitar and so on...) musiciansfriend and others have these for about $150... sounds like a good deal and may be a great "step up" for someone who doesn't have mic's of these types.

 

What 'ya think?

 

guitplayer

Hey Guitplayer, How Ya?

 

The Marshall Electronics mics I have are the MXL1006 LD condenser mic, the MXL1000 SD condenser mics & the FOX dynamic mic. The MXL1006 is a plain jane mic with no cuts or roll offs. I have a pair of MXL1000 SD mics that I use for stage use alot. Great mics IMO. The FOX is just ok so far. It came in a package with the MXL1000's. I've done some eq adjustments with it live & it's better. I still have to learn the mic. I've been using it on acoustic guitar.

The others have been, and are, wonderful mics. I'd say go ahead with the deal you're looking at.

I don't know if you've listened to any of the songs I've posted but they are all done with the MXL1006 as a solo mic, in my loft with the computer noise & everything else in the house.

There have been some bad reviews on the Marshall Electronics mics but my experience with them is excellent. I'm going to buy more of them & looking real hard at the tube mic & waiting for them to come up with a ribbon.

[Stan_Frenchie]

Hi,

 

Originally posted by Wickerman

 

Actually, you don't need a powered mixer. If you mic your amp and put that into a mixer that has plenty for recording. It doesn't take an excessively large signal to record onto your computer.

I think there's a bit of confusion here (it may comes from my limited knowledge of English, though).

TO ME a powered mixer is something you have to supply with some form of electrical energy, be it a battery or AC power to make it work (this is to make the distinction with un-powered or passive devices which doesn't need any form of energy), what you call powered mixer is what I would call a P.A. System which obviously is not necessary for recording purposes.

 

Bests.

 

Stan.

[Dak Lander]

Stan, in all reality you're correct. Here, it's become standard to call a mixer that supplies it's own power amp a powered mixer even though most of the other mixers are powered too, via AC or batteries.

[John Brown]

Stan,

 

I think you have just said exactly what I have been coming t find out. ALL of the mixers use power, I had been thinking of them all (all of the ones I had seen) as powered. Then I saw some big PA looking mixers, and I started to wonder. Just to make sure.....If the Mixer can power a PA system, or some speakers etc. is that what makes it powered? By the way, I think that I am going to get the 8 channel behringer, it looks nice enough, and fits nicely in the budget. Thanks again.

 

John (MixMaster) Brown

[Stan_Frenchie]

I think you have just said exactly what I have been coming t find out. ALL of the mixers use power, I had been thinking of them all (all of the ones I had seen) as powered. Then I saw some big PA looking mixers, and I started to wonder. Just to make sure.....If the Mixer can power a PA system, or some speakers etc. is that what makes it powered? By the way, I think that I am going to get the 8 channel behringer, it looks nice enough, and fits nicely in the budget. Thanks again.

John,

 

I don't know if I am the right person to answer on what seems to be a matter of semantic (English is one of the language I try to speak, but I am French -and proud of that even after the word cup -).

As there exist some mixers which don't use any power (at least I have one : it just use potentiometers to attenuate the signals), I take for granted that powered meant you had to supply the mixer with some energy. I took a look at the Fender Frontline 2002 mag. and what they call powered mixer can indeed drive speakers, so I suppose this is the right terminology. Just to make it clear you don't have to be able to drive speakers to record, you just need line level outputs which the Behringer has, so you can buy it confidently (I use one for small mixes, it has a very good price/performance ratio).

 

Bests.

 

Stan.

 

PS : count the number of inputs you think you need and add at least 4 more to be on the safe side ...

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by John Brown:

Stan,

 

Then I saw some big PA looking mixers, and I started to wonder. Just to make sure.....If the Mixer can power a PA system, or some speakers etc. is that what makes it powered?

John (MixMaster) Brown

Yep, that is what we call a powered mixer.

[John Brown]

Thanks Dak, I appreciate the information. But all of this talk about mixers has got me wondering what 'phantom" power is now. Lol.

 

John Brown

[Stan_Frenchie]

Hi John,

 

Thanks Dak, I appreciate the information. But all of this talk about mixers has got me wondering what 'phantom" power is now. Lol.

Some microphones also need to be powered to work (that is supplied with electricity), this electricity can be either provided by an external source or by the mixer this is what is meant by phantom power, that is also a thing to check before plugging a mike into a mixer, as if you

don't provide power to a mike which needs it you just won't hear anything, BUT if you provide power to mike which doesn't need it you're likely to kill it ...

 

Bests.

 

Stan.

[Lee Flier]

A lot of semi-misinformation here.

 

What you want is a line-level mixer, which means it has preamps in the channels to bring the signal up from mic level (very weak) to line level. From there you can take the resulting stereo output and amplify it for listening, either with an external amp or with powered monitors like your computer speakers.

 

You don't want a "powered mixer" because that's a mixer intended for PA use, where the signal goes directly to the "big amp" that powers the speakers.

 

Stan is correct that "phantom power" refers to a substitute for external power required by some microphones (namely, condenser mics). However, applying phantom power to a mic that doesn't require it, will not kill it. There are a very few, very delicate, mostly very old mics that could be damaged by phantom power, but it should never be a concern of anybody using the typical mics of today. The cheaper mixers like Mackie et al, only have a single phantom power switch which means phantom power is either on every channels or not on any channel. Yet, people plug in SM57's and other dynamic mics, which don't require phantom power, into these mixers right along with their condenser mics which do need the phantom power, and it hasn't killed the mics.

 

The others have some good advice about using a small mixer to go into your computer or 4 track for recording guitar. If you don't have a great sounding room or great mics, what I would suggest is to take a small amp and put it facing a baffle of some sort. It doesn't have to be an actual studio baffle - I put my amps up on a coffee table and face them toward my futon! That will take a lot of the room sound out of the equation. Then just use a single close mic on the amp. I like to use a Sennheiser 421 most of the time but an SM57 will do just fine, and has been used on tons of classic guitar recordings. The secret to getting a good miked amp sound is to place the mic correctly. For a home recording the best bet is to place it pretty close to the speaker, maybe 4 to 5 inches off the grille. If the cabinet has multiple speakers, pick one speaker (the best sounding one if you know which one that is), and put the mic off a little to the side of it, not pointed right at the center which can cause boominess.

 

You also don't want to place the mic "head-on" in front of the speaker. You want it a little bit "off axis" - that is, so the capsule is pointing at maybe a 45 degree angle away from the speaker. What you're trying to capture is the air coming from the speaker and going by the microphone. If you point the mic straight at the speaker and the air hits the capsule directly, the mic will often sound "choked" because it's recording the sound of the air hitting it rather than the sound of the amp... if that makes sense. Point it a little away from the speaker and you'll be happy.

 

Anyway, you can use this as a starting point, and experiment from there. Often moving the mic or amp by just a few inches can really change the sound, so have fun messing with it and see what sounds good! Good luck.

[Stan_Frenchie]

Hi Lee,

 

There are a very few, very delicate, mostly very old mics that could be damaged by phantom power, but it should never be a concern of anybody using the typical mics of today. The cheaper mixers like Mackie et al, only have a single phantom power switch which means phantom power is either on every channels or not on any channel. Yet, people plug in SM57's and other dynamic mics, which don't require phantom power, into these mixers right along with their condenser mics which do need the phantom power, and it hasn't killed the mics.

This is not even semi-misunformation : the fact is you can fry a mike (even some of the new ones) if you power them ...

 

The SM57 and some others you (as an old hand at recording) may know may withstand it does not mean than all of them can do it (BTW many SM57 are used with a cable with an 1/4 jack and the 1/4 inputs are not powered on Mackies, only the XLR are ... and if you look at the Mackies manual you'll read "Unless you know for certain it is safe to do so never plug single-ended (unbalanced) microphones, instrument or electronic devices into the MIC input jacks if the phantom power is on".

 

My answer was geared at a newbie -no offence there John- (I posted six messages in this thread trying to help him), so it seemed appropriate to warn him of a potential trouble area and the first thing I learned when I first went to a recording studio more than 30 years ago, was to try as much as possible to be on the safe side ...

 

Stan.

[Franknputer]

What Lee said.

 

Wow - I was getting disturbed there, Lee, until you cleared all that up. Saved me from doing it.

 

My 2 cents: a small mixer will help straighten out your sound.

 

VIP - don't hammer your computer's input - make sure that the incoming signal is not so loud as to cause clipping. What's that, you say...? Here's a VERY simple explanation of the concepts.

 

An audio signal has a lot of variation in level, between quiet and loud. Whatever you are playing style-wise this is still true - a single picked guitar note will have a sharp (high-level) attack, will drop quickly to sound the "note", and then will proceed to a gradual (or not so gradual) fade out.

 

Imagine that your soundcard can see units of level on a scale from 1 to 10. Now, imagine that your signal varies by 6 units. That leaves you approximately 4 units to play with.

 

If the lowest unit=1, then it will get recorded; if it is lower, you will start to lose units, i.e. your sound will not vary by 6 units anymore, but less.

 

On the other end of the scale, if the highest unit of your signal=10, then you're still OK, you're still able to get 6 units of variation, and your overall signal is getting recorded at the loudest level possible.

 

Now, here it gets tricky: If your top unit exceeds 10, you get clipping. Again, you start to have less than 6 units of level variation in your sound. In the case of analog recording, this CAN be a good sound, as the result is "tape compression". (A compressor works on a signal in the same way, actually - lowering the top available level from 10 to something less; but that's another story...) Tube amp distortion is also a result of clipping, that just happens to sound good to us.

 

In the digital world, however, clipping is nasty - it does not sound good at all, which is why it's important to NOT exceed that topmost level. Bottom line - just make sure that you aren't recording TOO loud into a digital recorder/computer. Get it to live as close to 10 without going over, & you'll be golden!