Ok, What should I do?

[Skip_dup1]

Chip,

Unfortunately it`s difficult for me to hear you music now, but I think gtrmac is on the right track. It`s really aggravating being inordinately talented, partly because so many peole with so much less seem to go further. I spent a lot of time getting apoplectic about it, then it occurred to me that the music is one step in a larger process. It`s pretty damn difficult for me to get fired up about marketing, but that`s a critical part-some would say the major part-of making a living from music or any other talent. That`s where I would focus, rather than on a musical direction per se.

It`s easy to say that-I have nothing I would put on MP3, no band, I`ve been in Japan three years and I`m finally rehearsing for an actual first gig-but I have a fairly accurate picture I think. You have an extensive library of great music, but a lot that, as you said before, isn`t intended for public consumption-well why not record something that is EXACTLY that-maybe it wouldn`t be your edgiest material, but the quality would be such that you wouldn`t cringe at the thought of it being heard next to mainstream productions.

Just my .00000000000000000000002cents worth.

p.s. I`ve found that exercise is the best nonmedicinal cure for almost any condition that`s not genetically related. All the best to you sir.

[Emperator]

Dam, this post just gets me. I have so much in common with what's going on with you Chip. Including the acid reflux. I'm in the process of doing what they were telling you to do. Move. I left Calif. and am now in Spokane,Washington. Deciding where I'm going to go in the spring. I'm thinking LA, NY, Portland, OR or Dallas (ex drummer there). Although here seems to be a music scene here that looks like it could take off. Lot of colleges, tourism, and after leaving the SF bay area Calif. definitely cheaper real estate. Wherever theirs a good sizable number of bands and a music scene where people are saying their aren't enough clubs and with this many people working on it here "How come something doesn't happen?" It just might. I've seen this first hand a couple of times.

Next. I had an extreme time with panic attacks after being to close to a music scene where they were using to much of a certain thing that makes you go faster and only ends up making you feel like you're an old man before your time. Finally divorcing myself from this scene I was then left alone with my equipment in tech hell basically to go mad. God I hate vaporware. Should have been more music (always). When the mind goes what's left. Well the love of family and friends brought me back around (and Zoloft) over time.

And it is a great big world out there. I love all those people I left and I will stay in touch and see them again. When it's all brand new you get a chance to make yourself a brand new day. Definitely make sure you get enough sun.

OK. I just got DSL and listened to your stuff. You're on the right track. Playing with people is when it really all comes togethers the best (potentialy faster and easier). When doing prep work for that keep that in mind in all forms. It's always good to keep it fresh with more perspectives (ie. more players). Also it's good if you get the people that cover all your basic requirements (in everyway that's a tough requirement). Anything that you do that doesn't make it to the band is a prime candidate for all these other musical outlets such as GtrMac suggests. Commercials, soundbytes. Passion is the key and it's infectious.

I never would have thought I would have gotten such great advice on Acid Reflux from a music forum.

People are more resilient then they even know. Just don't shock yourself to death.

[Trash Monkey]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

 

...

 

So now I'm taking Clariten (which is wonderful), but also Zantac for acid reflux, more Avelox, and albuterol with an inhaler.

 

Chip, albuterol could be contributing to your sleep disorder, my oldest son that just turned 9 has had asthma since 2 years old and has been on oral and inhaled steroids and it really messes with him.

 

 

A friend (plays bass in a curious klezmer-jam band called "The Red Heffers"?) suggested I come down, I haven't been there since I was a kid. I may do that sometime...

 

Thanks

 

No way, the drummer Steve Chanin is a good friend of mine and a monster jazz drummer-small freakin world!!

 

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Trash Monkey ]

[Trash Monkey]

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Trash Monkey ]

[Chip McDonald]

Hippie - the problem with my situation is that I'm inhaling the stomach acid into my lungs; I *could* swallow some sort of anti-acid, but then instead of suffocating on hydrochloric acid I would drown.... I suppose you're right about "life", but trying to chill isn't a strongpoint of mine.

 

Wager: I'm much more passionate about music.While it would be fun to work for EA if it wasn't doing music I'd flip out. I tried getting back into programming around...'97 as an adjunct to teaching, but... I started having a curious "problem": after about a week of spending a few hours everyday studying C++ I found myself getting up to see why the radio was on in the other room. The "problem" was that *it wasn't on*. Which was VERY strange. I can't concentrate with music on; part of my brain is always thinking about what I'm hearing. I think one part of my brain was giving another part something to listen to.

 

Pretty funny, huh?

 

Hmm. Maybe I should erase the above?

 

Kahn: I can't cut myself some slack. BTW, does Boscombe Down as a theme sound too much like any particular Floyd song you can think of? I want to use that for something but it crosses the line too far? Or does it? Sigh...

 

gatorwing: I was thinking about Nexium. I haven't had endoscopy, so I don't know if I've got Barrett's esophagus (there's a name for a Floyd sounding instrumental...). I'm kinda hoping it's just nerves, although I think I've had symptoms of reflux for maybe 2 years now. Since I've been "sleeping" with my back on this pillow wedge my throat feels totally different; it must have been swollen... Uhg...

How much is Nexium? I thumbed through a pamphlet at the doctor's office, but politely put it back when I was called.

 

It's amazing. I already didn't really sleep much before, NOW I can't sleep on my side and I have the fear of waking up to suffocation to help. Likewise, I can't enjoy the food anymore that I like, no siree, and my only vice - tea - is chock full of caffeine. This is what I get for not smoking I presume...

 

Thanks for compliments...

 

gtrmac: thanks for the info, I'll be sending you some email.

If I loosened the editorial grip on what I do it would be a lot easier I suppose.

 

skip: yes, marketing seems to be my Achille's heel. Exercise: it has been a beautiful 80 degrees here for the past 3 days. 3 days that I've been bedridden. I suppose I should make time for the bike again.

 

MisterMe: yeah, if possible I'm getting out of here. Zoloft - yeah, that's been suggested to me before, big surprise? I tried hypericin (St. John's wort) for a year and it probably saved my life, it was a very interesting thing. I got scared of the toxicity, though. Zoloft - there has to be a downside? I don't have panic attacks really, except when I had that reaction to the dextromorphan. On the other hand, I'm probably having a panic attack continuously and don't realize it.

 

I *never* feel relaxed. That's not good, huh?

 

A band would be a good thing, but I can't get a "real" one together at the moment. I can't any of the right pieces together; fusion drummer but no fusion bass player. Blues bass player but no drummer. Impossible situations; there's a lot of "package situations" in my town at the moment, if you know what I mean. As an example of that read the following:

 

Trash Monkey: if I'm remembering correctly their guitar player Steffans at one point I think was going to play bass in a Pink Floyd cover band I was doing/did way back, but it was bad timing - he ended up where you are. Yeah, their drummer swings, cool tom work. I'm going to have to go down there soon....

 

Everyone - thanks for your support and kind words.

 

I suppose I'm going to commit to 2002 a project to make a decent "guitar demo" cd a priority? I wanted to make a real acoustic cd to replace the demo "thing" I've been flogging (half-heartedly because it's so mediocre), and I could probably sell a large quantity at gigs if I felt good enough about it to actually mention it when I play instead of just selling to the people that come up and ask if I have a cd (I know, that's not the way it's supposed to work.). I sort of don't feel like doing another acoustic cd at the moment - that's all I've been doing consistently for over a year now, so.. Uhg.

 

So I'm thinking, re-record 3 or so acoustic tunes "the right way", put those on the "guitar specific" cd and I can get away with selling that at the acoustic gigs maybe?

 

... but no band to play the stuff live. So, how strange would it be to see a lone guy playing to a full band of backing tracks? Ahg..

[Gator Wing]

Chip,

 

I have taken only the Prilosec, and it makes a world of difference.

 

Make sure you don't eat high-fat content food before laying down. Eat as little as possible beginning two hours or so before bedtime. I find I don't have as much trouble sleeping on my left side; if I have any acid, sleeping on the right side is impossible. Sometimes, when it is bad, I sleep in the recliner chair. Better than anything! I'm not on Prilosec right now because the HMO won't pay for it; it isn't on their formulary (too expensive); last health plan covered the Prilosec. I found Pepcid AC to be better than Zantac.

 

Regards,

Cliff

 

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: gatorwing@aol.com ]

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

I tried getting back into programming around...'97 as an adjunct to teaching, but... I started having a curious "problem": after about a week of spending a few hours everyday studying C++ I found myself getting up to see why the radio was on in the other room. The "problem" was that *it wasn't on*. Which was VERY strange. I can't concentrate with music on; part of my brain is always thinking about what I'm hearing. I think one part of my brain was giving another part something to listen to.

 

I experienced something similar in college. Amazing music flowed through my head every time I sat down to study for my math classes. Maybe I should sign up for Calculus this spring and go Back To School, a la Rodney Dangerfield.

[KHAN]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

Khan: I can't cut myself some slack. BTW, does Boscombe Down as a theme sound too much like any particular Floyd song you can think of? I want to use that for something but it crosses the line too far? Or does it? Sigh...

 

A.: By cutting yourself some slack I don't mean to give up on your goals or quit striving towards them.What I mean is, "Please stop belittling yourself!" You don't deserve such HARSH criticism. Especially self inflicted.

 

B: While the lead line to the track you mention is very "Gilmouresqe", I don't think it's a ripoff. Silent Lucidity, now that's a ripoff. (good song though).

 

C: Going by the above definition,

CUT YOURSELF SOME SLACK DAMN IT!!!!!

 

Feel better,

 

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: KHAN ]

[Lee Flier]

Chip -

 

Sounds like you are in the throes of a major league depression which probably means you need a CHANGE, big time! And I'm sure you feel totally mired in the situations you are in now, but you really aren't. Really. Almost anything would be better than the status quo. That's what I finally decided when I left L.A. feeling similarly to how you feel now. I'd wanted to save some money before I moved, and have a job lined up, and all that. In the end, I couldn't, and I packed up my van with my guitars, books, records, and dog and left with $500 in my pocket for gas money to get to Atlanta. I thought, better to be broke and miserable elsewhere than to stay where I was and still be broke and miserable with little chance of anything changing.

 

And as you know, things worked out OK. Sometimes you really do just have to kick yourself in the ass.

 

Well anyhow... if you do feel like driving over to Atlanta again even for a visit, you know you're welcome. And feel better OK?

 

--Lee

[Emperator]

Zoloft. Couldn't tell one thing it did. I would have thought it was a placebo. Only I yawned. I couldn't remember how long it had been. Yawning is a sign of relaxation. Later I wandered when I could stop taking the stuff. So I lessened the amount. Never really noticed the difference when I finally stopped. I still got the last bottle of pills, the prescription is greatly out of date. Never know some day when I might accidentally be involved with speed induced psychotic, foam at the mouth, gun-toting bandmates again.

[Chip McDonald]

gatorwing: how much Prilosec do you take a day, and when do you take it? I'm noticing it seems like the Zantac/ranatitine seems to not last all the way until time to "get up" in the morning....

 

Kahn: "Ok....."

 

Lee: I know, but I'd still prefer to save up some the first of the year to make the odds a little more in my favor... I'll have a self-sufficient recording arrangement by January, and I'm going to make a guitar cd so that I'll at least have something of a calling card to hand out. Although it will probably have two drummers from Atlanta on it anyhow. I may make a visit in February? think I'm almost over the infection aspect of what I've got, thanks...

 

MisterMe: I'll probably never get around to trying Zoloft anyhow, but you couldn't tell anything at all? What about the side effects, which there appears to be plenty...?

I did St. John's wort for a while and it helped, but I'm concerned with the toxicity. When I quit taking it I noticed a difference, but it was almost like it "educated" me on being aware of serotonin levels. I now "know" when I'm thinking negatively/too much (probably), but I still can't stop it. I reason that it's just "really good objectivity" instead of negativity, but I suppose it makes for an inefficient life.

 

Thanks again, everybody....

[Chip McDonald]

Ok, so I'm going to make an "All Purpose Guitar Oriented" Cd. Since a singer doesn't seem to be appearing from anywhere, I don't have a band at the moment per se, and I've already been doing the acoustic concept for the past year.

 

The question is, do I try to put it together based around human drummers, or bust my butt programming the drums? Or both?

 

I planned on getting an MDR24/96 for this purpose, which would let me do some side gigs doing on location recording. All I need are more mic stands if I do that, so it seems logical I should drop $2,000 on that, right?

 

Monitors: I've been thinking about Tannoy Reveals (Nika?), but lately I've been thinking "I should probably just go ahead and get a pair of HR824s and be done with it". Another Large Chunk of Money I Don't Really Have, but I won't have to second guess my monitors... which I really hate doing now (little rinky dink Audix jobs; no bass at all, bright at 7.something k, smeary between about 3k-6k, nothing between 6 and 8k, etc...)).

 

This will make me flat broke for at least 2 months.

 

I'm getting a crazy dumb expensive custom guitar in February that I've already allocated money for. At that point there will be nothing I "need", unless my bike or car breaks down (or I get sick again and have to waste $$$$ on medication, doctor, time off).

 

This seems sensible?

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by popmusic:

 

Why not use a drum machine to cook up the rough ideas for the drum parts (i.e. do really, really rough demos -- just so the drummer can get an idea of what the drum part and arrangement might sound like), but use a human drummer to play the parts on the real recording?

 

That's what I used to do; but they either ignored it, or tried hard as possible to NOT do what I had on the demo. Wasting time until finally - they end up playing my part.

 

The drummers around here don't seem to get the notion that if I put a drum part on a recording, the reason I want them isn't to "do what I tell you", but to *perform* it. It's sort of like an affront: "how dare you, a GUITAR PLAYER, tell me what to do?" sort of thing.

 

Sigh.

 

It's kind of like pot luck. Basically, if I put a part on the demo, they'll almost assuredly do something completely different. If I leave it off and gesture/air drum to them, it's more... "acceptable" I think.

 

I sometimes wonder "if I take out a loan for $10,000 could I just hire Vinny Coliauta for an hour?"...

 

I imagine for any kind of music that features guitar as its focus, the sound and feel of a real drummer will go over infinitely better than the sound of a well-programmed drum machine. I think most of our brains are culturally wired that way...

 

I agree. Satriani did the "Surfing with the Alien" cd with a drum machine - and I think that's something I didn't like about it. The electronica approach doesn't sit well with more rock sounding things.

 

I'm contemplating playing drums on some of the slower things, actually.. Ultimately, if I had a drum kit and a place to practice regularly to get my chops up, *I'd* do it myself. It wouldn't be as flashy, but the feel would be right. Man.

 

See, I'm already getting depressed thinking about getting this executed properly, and I've only decided to commit to this today...

[Lee Flier]

Chip, it sounds like you're thinking along the right lines. I needn't tell you how I feel about using drum machines on recordings. But I feel the same way about demos. I think drummers are much more inclined to give you their best and be cooperative and attentive if they feel they are part of the process, and you are not dictating to them what to do. And the very act of giving somebody a drum machine demo DOES seem to a drummer to be dictating, even if you don't intend it that way. It's kind of unavoidable. So, I just don't use the damned things at all for any reason, and it pays off because I've never had a problem finding a great drummer to play with me, even if I can't pay him. And the music is better too because the drummer is really participating in the creative process from the ground up, and comes up with better parts, which in turn inspires ME to do the best tracks I can do.

 

What I will usually do is to make a demo using just guitars and give it to the drummer, just so he gets a feel for what the song is like, and then we get together and flesh out the arrangement. I might toss out an idea of what I'm hearing, like maybe give him an example of a song I'm thinking of that has a similar drum part, and we'll go from there. It really is more rewarding that way for everybody concerned.

 

--Lee

[strat0124]

This may be blasphemy to some, but I'd say get away from tech that keeps you glued to a chair...ie the computer. Ride a bike, traipse through the woods with no particular place to go, visit a museum, go to a restaurant you've never been to before, buy a CD of a band you've never heard of, ride a rollercoaster, OR......travel to Virginia Beach and hang out with the Moaning Lisas next Saturday night.....if that won't pull you out of your funk, nothing will.

Seriously, don't sweat it........you'll get back in the saddle again.....

[dansouth]

Chip - a couple of points...

 

(1) Mackie is coming out with a smaller monitor, the HR624. I'd give it a serious listen. The 824's are great, but they're going to run up your electric bill in a hurry.

 

(2) The MDR824 has no mic pre's, just line in's. I'm assuming that you have a mixer to take the mic inserts, monitor, mix, etc.

 

(3) Any reason why you're not considering an all-in-one unit like the AW4416, the Akai, or the Roland VS stuff?

 

(4) I think you should START at least SOME of the songs by programming a simple drum track. It will help YOU to clarify what YOU want from the guy, even if HE never hears it. This will help to decrease your stomach acid level. Besides, a self-reliant attitude is tough to beat. If the drummer doesn't pan out, screw him and do it yourself. The more dependencies you have, the more hassles you'll have, unless you find someone who fits your artistic vision like a glove. Those folks don't come along that often.

 

(5) You're not going to have to kill yourself to program decent sounding drums. Start with something simple and add complexity only when absolutely necessary. Use a wide variety of attack velocities to give it feel, i.e. variation between accented and non-accented beats.

 

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: dansouth@yahoo.com ]

[Emperator]

Use to watch Jerry Cantrell use a little boss drum thing couldn't called it a drum machine. A little unit that Boss was selling back then for $100.00. Had a dial that you twisted for drum style, one for tempo, and some variation knob. He'd play his idea to that then take it to Sean. Always thought that was clever as hell. Let's the drummer invest himself into his part. Things move faster. Maybe letting going and let your players help you right the part will help get the chemistry going. Also will endear the players to you more. I've got drum machines and sequencers and programming parts is time consuming. Anyway Alesis SR16 extremely cheap $200.00 and syncs to MTC thru midi. Keeps it pretty simple. Everything I record with a drummer is easier and always has a better vibe. Sometimes you got to let it go. Take a down and dirty demo to a really good session drummer. Every time I gotten to dictatorial caused more problems then it solved. Maybe demo to get a better demo to get a finished song. Eventually you meet the drummer. I've always said never lose your good drummer. It can be tough to find the right one again. I can see you're already there. Good luck.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

(1) Mackie is coming out with a smaller monitor, the HR624. I'd give it a serious listen.

 

Woah, I completely missed that...

 

Hmm... looks like they're listing at $650 each... probably about a $200 end difference compared to the 824's? Hmm. Obviously the low end is going to be weaker; different tweeter design... Hmm. Ships in January supposedly.. Hmm.

 

(2) The MDR824 has no mic pre's, just line in's.

 

Yeah I know, no prob...

 

(3) Any reason why you're not considering an all-in-one unit like the AW4416, the Akai, or the Roland VS stuff?

 

More difficult to get into my computer; you have to go through their front end electronics; unneccessary editing features. If I could get at least 10 pure 24bit inputs for less than $2,000 and have the computer transfer capability I'd do it... I've already got a VS880, I definitely don't want another...

 

(4) I think you should START at least SOME of the songs by programming a simple drum track. It will help YOU to clarify what YOU want from the guy, even if HE never hears it. This will help to decrease your stomach acid level.

 

I would think that - that's what I've done in the past, but it's always "let me try something" from the drummer - meaning, "let me put my own stamp on it". They screw around for an hour and finally come back to something like what I have, only maybe they're intentionally forcing something weird into it.

 

I think Lee is right; maybe it's an affront. I don't know; it seems to have never worked, and I've played with basically every good drummer that's come through my town (which isn't a small number). The only way I've gotten things to work is to let them operate under the pretense they're calling the shots with the drum parts, then I have to adjust my part usually.

 

If you pick the right drummer for the right part, it's ok. The problem is if the "right" drummer isn't available at the moment. With other musicians I'm like the Ameritrade Bad Timing Guy: I'll have a great rock drummer but the great rock bass player just joined another band. I was playing with the great rock bass player, but with the great technical metal drummer, which didn't work. The great fusion drummer wants to do something, but the great fusion bass player just moved. Or, 3 great fusion drummers are available but I'm tied up with another project, and the fusion bass player is off doing something else (that was REAL frustrating). Or, the right fusion drummer is now involved with a straight jazz outfit that frowns upon outside projects, or the great rock drummer is available, but he wants to stretch out on some jazz things he's learning. Or....

 

....just ridiculous combinations. I've played with every "Great" musician in town at one point or another, but with the wrong combination.

 

drummer doesn't pan out, screw him and do it yourself.

 

That's what I say. Wait, I tried that....

 

The problem is that I want to do some more.. complicated things instrumentally that I can't pull off on a kit, and takes forever/too long to program properly. If I did pop music it would be fine; but you don't do pop music by yourself, it kind of defeats the purpose - particularly if you don't sing. So.... either I practice drums until I get to that Weckyl/Chambers/Coliauta level, or I try to work with these guys I have available that can do that.

 

I guess.

 

unless you find someone who fits your artistic vision like a glove. Those folks don't come along that often.

 

Never happens in my case.

 

I was just thinking yesterday "man... if I could find someone who is into the way Matt Cameron plays BUT doesn't mind playing instrumental music"... Stuff like that doesn't happen. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, I see an angle, no one else does.

 

It's because I have a debit card instead of a platinum visa: I'm nobody. I have this great rep as a *guitar player*; but because of the aforementioned situation with combinations - and bad luck - I've never had a band that went anywhere, so I'm not thought of in that context. Joe Local 3 Chord Rock guy, that played in the Local Popular Group for 5 Years, he can put together the band he wants because of that, not because people really liked his songs - but because he's thought of in that context.

 

Me - I'm the Eclectic Genius Guitar Player Guy. I'm to be appreciated from afar: "man, he does some weird things" probably. Because I don't sit in one category in an expected way, an error on my part. Strategy I've been completely oblivious to.

 

 

(5) You're not going to have to kill yourself to program decent sounding drums. Start with something simple and add complexity only when absolutely necessary. Use a wide variety of attack velocities to give it feel, i.e. variation between accented and non-accented beats.

 

Been there done that. Either it's done realistically or it shouldn't try to IMO; to be realistic WILL kill you to do it right, unless it's straight pop. Satriani's _surfing with the Alien_ - it sounds "fine", but to me it sounds "unfinished". The live versions of those songs are sooooo much better IMO. Personally I *hate* that sound, I've got reams of tapes that sound like that that are "demos". You have to sort of embrace that stiffness, or artificial looseness, and I don't want to do that.

 

Unfortunately for me, it would be a catch-22 situation anyhow - instrumental music done that way is probably going to come off Satriani-like, and I'd like to avoid that. I get pegged that way a lot, and it's just happenstance (I think if more people were aware of Landau it would probably be Landau). I just don't want to make "Yet Another Guitar Instrumental Record".

 

I suppose I may end up having to. I don't know, I'm going to try this and see what I can do with humans again.

[Lee Flier]

I would think that - that's what I've done in the past, but it's always "let me try something" from the drummer - meaning, "let me put my own stamp on it". They screw around for an hour and finally come back to something like what I have, only maybe they're intentionally forcing something weird into it.

 

I think Lee is right; maybe it's an affront. I don't know; it seems to have never worked, and I've played with basically every good drummer that's come through my town (which isn't a small number). The only way I've gotten things to work is to let them operate under the pretense they're calling the shots with the drum parts...

 

As somebody with a self-confessed bad case of Drummer Empathy, maybe I can explain why this process works so well, and why the more you can shift to it mentally, the better it works. You have to get beyond the idea that you're just humoring the drummer by "letting them operate under the pretense that they're calling the shots". It's not an ego thing. Not that there haven't been great drummers with ego problems, but in my experience, most really GREAT drummers do NOT have an ego problem. What they DO have is a different way of grokking a part than you might have.

 

The BEST drummers I have come across always have a much more intuitive and physical approach to finding a groove, than intellectual. Not to say they couldn't intellectualize it after the fact, and break down for you everything they did, but it's got to be FELT first, even if it's the simplest groove in the world. As I've mentioned before, drumming has a great deal in common with sex . If you were about to have sex with a girl and she spelled out to you beforehand exactly what she wanted you to do and for how long, it would give you the willies, wouldn't it? Well, maybe if you weren't particularly sensitive and couldn't intuit on your own what she liked and didn't like, you'd appreciate it. But if you DO have a clue about such things, her telling you would only detract from the experience. You'd be THINKING about it instead of doing what you do naturally - which could very well be exactly what she would have told you to do, and probably even better, if only she'd have trusted you. Know what I mean?

 

If you really think the drummer is that good, then you have to trust the process by which drummers intuit things, and let them do it. Otherwise, as you've experienced, it'll take him at least an hour to shake off the drum-machine willies. Even if he ends up playing the same physical notes that the drum machine did, a drum machine FEELS different to a drummer (and hopefully to you too) than his own muscles feel playing the same thing... but the drummer may not be able to rationalize to you why he feels that way, so his natural response is going to be just "let me try something different". And even then, he may NEVER come up with the part he would have if you'd trusted him to find the right one.

 

--Lee

 

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Lee Flier ]

[dansouth]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

As I've mentioned before, drumming has a great deal in common with sex . If you were about to have sex with a girl and she spelled out to you beforehand exactly what she wanted you to do and for how long, it would give you the willies, wouldn't it?

 

On the other hand, if she says something like, "Hey, how about a bubble bath!" it might lead to some interesting possibilities that didn't occur to you at the outset.

 

I agree that restricting ANY musician to absolute, note-for-note reproduction of a crudely produced prototype track is going to stifle creativity and feel. That's not what I suggested. If you'll read my post carefully, you'll notice that I said "even if HE never hears it." The important thing is to clarify in YOUR mind what you want. So if you want Bombastic Bonham and he gives you Cutesy Calypso, you'll understand right away what adjustments are necessary.

[dansouth]

>>(3) Any reason why you're not considering an all-in-one unit like the AW4416, the Akai, or the Roland VS stuff?

 

More difficult to get into my computer;

 

I don't see how. You can track in real time via an ADAT I/O port or save everything to WAV files and copy them over.

 

you have to go through their front end electronics;

 

Not if you use digital ins.

 

unneccessary editing features.

 

You wouldn't have to worry about THAT on a Yamaha.

 

I've already got a VS880, I definitely don't want another...

 

Well, if that's not a testimonial, I've never read one.

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

I don't see how. You can track in real time via an ADAT I/O port or save everything to WAV files and copy them over.

 

An ADAT port would be extra $$$, and would require a real time transfer, and I don't think I could do all tracks at once; saving to .wav files - I'm not sure how those machines accomplish that (I know the VS doesn't work like that), but I don't think it's going to be as straight forward as FTP'ing the files enmasse as on the MDR.

 

 

Not if you use digital ins.

 

But then I've got to buy outboard AD converters, mucho $$$; and I doubt I'd be able to get as many ins.

 

 

It really can't get any easier/cheaper than the MDR24/96.

[D. Gauss]

Originally posted by Chip McDonald:

 

I sometimes wonder "if I take out a loan for $10,000 could I just hire Vinny Coliauta for an hour?"...

 

save some money... if ya got a $125 dollars, all time drum great bernard purdie will play your gig (in ny or nj). no lie.

 

chip, in reading all these posts, it seems that you keep creating more and more obstacles for yourself and in turn very little gets done. perhaps it would be better to make "less than ideal" progress rather than no progress at all? i.e. use what/who you have until you can find better.

when i started my current band, i used a not so great bass player 'cause he was into what i did, showed up for rehearsals, and allowed me to get the band going and into the clubs. once the band got going, i had really good bass players approach me at gigs wanting to work with me. those same folks wouldn't have given me the time of day if i'd never got things off the ground somewhat first.

 

same goes with the demo thing. do the alice in chains/cheesy beatbox thing mentioned earlier.

 

and moving? hey same thing. lee pulled it off. i can't tell you how many people here in ny just quit everything, packed up and left right after 9/11.

 

just gas up the car, empty yer bank account, grab your guitar and hit the road. what's to lose?

 

-d. gauss

[Emperator]

It's tough getting a band going. Once you do though, it's surprising how many people want to jump on the band wagon. Over time upgrade the players.

[Emperator]

Also cover tunes. The ones you like in your style(s). Start with the easy no brainer ones you can do in your sleep first. Get everyone on the same page. Just something to find common ground. Most bands do that. Doesn't mean you have to be a cover band. Doesn't mean you'll be doomed to playing cheap schlocky music. You're in charge know when to ratchet it up. Just don't do the lame all or nothing thing and break things; going back to ground zero. If you're leading, lead wisely. Don't have such high expectations that you can't get the plane off the ground. Some of the best players overtime are gonna be the ones that you give the chance. Maybe they'll appreciate it so much more they'll work their ass off to get better. If not next player. Chemistry is something that grows over time too.

I use to run rehearsal space with a recording studio. I had over 50 bands. One band I had learned a Rolling stones cover tune. They barely new how to play and learned it from one of my security guards. Excellent player. whose band would do Led Zeppelin tribute shows perfectly, including the bow. These kids would play that song relentlessly they loved it. Played it poorly but they had passion. A couple of years later when I was in California again. I picked up a Tower Pulse magazine and they were in it as this great up and coming band. Get it together, then make it better.

[D. Gauss]

Originally posted by MisterMe:

Get it together, then make it better.

 

what he said!

 

-d. gauss

[Chip McDonald]

Originally posted by d gauss:

 

save some money... if ya got a $125 dollars, all time drum great bernard purdie will play your gig (in ny or nj). no lie.

 

Really? Wow. Huh. Purdie apparently has family in Augusta; I remember the mother of a drummer I know used to talk about him. Hmm.

 

perhaps it would be better to make "less than ideal" progress rather than no progress at all?

 

I agree, but working that gray area seems to be difficult for me. All I know is "do it right". Consciously choosing a compromise - then I'm in the mode of "what's the perfect compromise?". Ack.

 

clubs. once the band got going, i had really good bass players approach me at gigs wanting to work with me. those same folks wouldn't have given me the time of day if i'd never got things off the ground somewhat first.

 

I know how that works, yeah.

 

same goes with the demo thing. do the alice in chains/cheesy beatbox thing mentioned earlier.

 

Which is probably something like what I'm going to have to do...

[Gator Wing]

Originally posted by d gauss:

when i started my current band, i used a not so great bass player 'cause he was into what i did, showed up for rehearsals, and allowed me to get the band going and into the clubs. once the band got going, i had really good bass players approach me at gigs wanting to work with me. those same folks wouldn't have given me the time of day if i'd never got things off the ground somewhat first.

-d. gauss

 

 

Question: did you use any of those bass players? if so, how did you replace you first bass player (what did you say to him, where, etc.).

[dansouth]

I forgot who said it -- I think it was an old, famous Hollwood producer -- but there's a quote out there that goes something like, "Making a movie involves 10,000 decisions. If I get about 40% of those decisions right, then I'm doing OK."

 

But unfortunately, Aaron Copeland said, "As a composer, you have to make it sound as though you made the ONLY decision possible." Man, that quote has f--ked with my mind over the years!

 

Everything is a compromise in music... I'd bet Roger Nichols and George Massenburg -- even though they have access to the coolest, most high tech of the high tech, work with big budgets, and have golden ears -- compromise certain things with their work daily ("Darn, the $200,000 D/A converter isn't here, guess I'll have to use the $175,000 one" ).

 

The thing you don't want to do is always be preparing for battle, but never going to war... At some point, you just have to get out there and do it and let the chips fall where they fall. Don't expect to ever be satisfied with what you've created -- there's always going to be a number of things you're going to wish you did differently -- but you should be able to trust your ears and experience so that, if you're committed to it, you can get those 40% of the decisions right.

 

Sage advice!

 

[ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: dansouth@yahoo.com ]

[Emperator]

Dan South wrote:

Aaron Copeland said, "As a composer, you have to make it sound as though you made the ONLY decision possible." Man, that quote had f--ked with my mind over the years!

 

I'm paraphrasing:

Some movie with Willie Nelson where he says "it scares the hell out of them when you stand there, take aim and shoot when by allrights you should be running for cover."